Comprehensive Pakistan Thread

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#61 [Permalink] Posted on 28th July 2017 12:31

Pakistan and Indian Muslims

The Sangh Parivar, the Saffron Brigade, people subscribing to RSS ideology and even more people have a grudge against Muslims of India. Because of creation of Pakistan. Hence the bill for creation of Pakistan came in our name. It should not have come in our name.

Here are my reasons. Firstly none of the Muslims of India today did anything for the creation of Pakistan - majority of us, most of us were not even born at that time. There were nine crore Muslims in undivided India. For simplicity let us equally divide them into three countries and thus India will get only three crore Muslims at the time of Partition. Let us assume that one third of these were in favour of creation of Pakistan. Ideally none of these was in favour of creation of Pakistan. Otherwise they would have headed for Pakistan but let us take the worst case scenario and that there were one crore Muslims in independent India who wanted creation of Pakistan. How many of them will be alive today? None. Or countably few. We have to discount everyone below the age of 21 at the time of partition and thus every single one of Indian Muslims who were for creation of pakistan would be more than 90 years of age. It is sheer madness to take about twenty crore Muslims today in India for task for the creation of Pakistan because the only few who really wanted it are today in the more than ripe age of above ninety.

This argument should make it abundantly clear how absurd is the idea of blaming Muslims of India today fro creation of Pakistan.

Yet today it is as difficult to say this as it was ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty or sixty years ago. This is an irony of gigantic proportions for it affects more than twenty crore Muslims of India.

Secondly the bill for creation of Pakistan should not come in our share because it was not the wary minority of the then India, the Muslims, but the majority community that failed to address the missgivings of the Muslims who later on went for a separate homeland for themselves. If the majority could not asuage the feelings of the minority then they also should not release their frustration of those Muslims who did not do anything towards creation of Pakistan. Indian subcontinet has a proverb to describe such a situation. A potter could not tackle the arguments of his wife so he secretly twisted the ear of his female donkey.

Thirdly if we look geographically then Pakistan is geographically located in the areas where people had already mostly became Muslims on their own accord. It is their land and it is their legitimate right to practice whatever religion they practice and whatever country and nation they create. The majority community of India today has no natural locus standi on their wishes and desires. I wonder if even Pakistanis understand this point even today. "Pakistan ka nam-o-nishan mit jayega", Pakistan will be wiped off the map. That is the usual refrain often heard in India as well as over the media. Really? India certainly stands as a powerful country today but historically the region that is Pakistan today mostly had an upper hand over India. Even if India manages to gobble up Pakistan today, the way China ate up Tibet, then she, India, will not be able to keep Pakistan in her stomach for long.

Fourthly let us take up those times when Pakistan was indeed part of Indian territory. This happened only few times. In Gupta times, in Mauryan times, in Mughal times, in the times of Sikh empire and in the British times. None of these was a Hindu empire. Buddhists, Muslims, Sikhs and the Christians held sway over this vast land but not the bigots of RSS today. It is in view of these arguments that the nonsense dished out by people like Hassan Nisar should be analysed. He is constantly trying to demoralise Pakistanis by talking abouit the negative side of things as these stand today.

But the main point of this note is to give a perspective on what RSS thinks today. She, RSS, has today successfully mobilised the eighty percent majority of India or at least forty crore of them against the Muslims. Muslims in India today are shivering in fear more out of their own cowardice than actual strength of the opponent. How to inspire them so that they face the current dangers with courage is a good question today.

I keep pondering over this issue and at the moment Ido not have many concrete ideas but if Rasoolallah SAW came wth the true faith to us then there has to be a way out and it has to be obvious and clear.

Only if my brothers and sisters were giving me a company.

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Muslim Ummah aspires to attain a rightful and honored place among the civilizations of the world and make our proportionate contribution towards international peace, progress and happiness of humanity.

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#62 [Permalink] Posted on 28th July 2017 14:37

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Pervez Hoodbhoy

July 22, 2017

The writer teaches physics in Lahore and Islamabad.

This dry info is deceptive. Professor Pervez Hoodbhoy is an excellent theoretical physicist.

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The ummah is at war with itself. What other way is there to describe the brutal bloodletting by Muslims of Muslims in Syria, Iraq, Libya, Yemen, Afghanistan, Turkey, and, of course, Pakistan.

This time Professor Hoodbhoy himself is indulging in deception. The west is mostly responsible for all this blood letting of Muslims that he so deftly slaps on Muslims themselves. He has an excellent understanding of the social and political dynamics the world over and he will not mince words if he has to criticize west. But when it comes to west vs Islam then his choice is again clear as in above comment.

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To be fair, the ummah has not mattered for a long time to the governments or peoples of Muslim lands. State-to-state relations among Muslim countries have been astonishingly independent of religious identity. They have depended instead upon perceived self-interest, domestic politics and the whims of rulers. Just look at the evidence.

I said he has an exccelent grip over current affairs.

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Pakistan was created on a religious premise. But, in the days of the Suez Crisis of 1956, Pakistan’s position was ambiguous. It refused to side with Gamal Abdel Nasser after he nationalised the Suez Canal and threw out the British. On the other hand, India was active in the Non-Aligned Movement, fully pro-Arab, and loud in support of liberating Palestine. To show gratitude, King Saud bin Abdul Aziz paid a state visit to India and declared that Indian Muslims were being treated well. There was outrage across Pakistan. Newspapers exploded in anger when Jawaharlal Nehru, on his return visit to Riyadh, was greeted by the king and with street banners in Riyadh bearing the slogan rasul-ul-salam (messenger of peace).

I said he has an exccelent grip over current affairs.
But let me add something new.
The King visted AMU and the King visited BHU.
The King gave some amount of money to AMU.
It was significant amount.
He also gave the same amount to BHU.
But this is not what I have in focus.
On the route by which the King's carriage passed the temples on the sides were coverd with cloths.

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It is time to give the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation a decent burial.

Now that is a non sequitor.
A non sequitor is a conclusion that simply does not follow from the arguments given.
Clearly all the objectivity that Professor Hoodbhoy was indulging in was really not sincere at all.
He was merely preparing the ground for a surprise assault and subterfuge.
He has an ideology that is not a secret amongst those who know his writings. He is a leftist and hence his view about Islam and the institutions created under it are technically out of his purview. But how will be a leftist, a communist, a Marxist true to his alt if he does not take pot shot at religion.

Now Islam is the only religion left for the opportunists to take pot shots at.
Christianity died after Catholicism committed suicide by indulging in Jewish holocaust through Hitler.
It is not going to come back to life.
Judaism was always a family religion of the Jewish people and hence nevr available to the common people.
Hidden behind the chosenness paradigm and secracy it is completely unassailable, particularly because of the complete control the Zionist lobby in the west has over the western and hence the world thought.
Eclectic diversity of Hinduism makes it again unassailable.

That leaves on Islam open for an assault.
And the liberals, communists, Marxists, socialists, leftists, Christians, Zionists, Catholics, Protestents, the atheists and the works, all have helped themselves generously in this field of taking islam to the laundry.
Pervez Hoodbhoy is no exception.
In fact lately I have become wary of people like him.
Communism dies an ignominous death with the break up of USSR but communists will be there for long around us and they will never stop tormenting Islam and Muslims if they have any opportunity.

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Dawn’s editorial of Dec 1, 1956, bitterly criticised the Arabs and “Nasser’s hatred of Pakistan, and love of Bharat and its Nehru”. It went on to suggest that such sensate bias and blind prejudice “may well be examined by psychiatrists”. In other words, the Arab world’s greatest hero of the moment was denounced as crazy.

One wonders why should events of 1956 be so important today that he is taking the trouble to dwell upon these.
The answer might lie in some inocuous fact like the archive becoming available now or he coming upon some passage in a book today.

At the technical level we have to pay attention to the fact that he is obfsucating between Arab and Muslims. Arabs are mostly Muslims but these two words are not synonymous. From the Islamic and Muslim point of view Arab indulgence in nationalism is not a glorious diversion and if Nasser acted out of those kinds of sentiments then Muslims had little to be flattered.

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Today, Pakistan has disputes with both its Muslim neighbours, Afghanistan and Iran. Iran occasionally lobs artillery shells over to Pakistan, as does Afghanistan. Pakistan has reciprocated with its artillery, while PAF jets brought down an Iranian drone last month. Ironically, Pakistan has excellent relations with one of its neighbours — China, a communist state that has banned the beard and burqa in its only Muslim-dominated province. India has good relations with both Iran and Afghanistan. And, India’s trade with China far exceeds Pakistan’s trade with China.

See he next jumps to today's affairs. Clearly he was seraching for something that is even remotely helpful in his thesis against Islam or Muslims. If it comes from 1956 then so be it. If it is available in current affairs then even better.

But let us see the above argument at its own merit.
If Pakistan has problems with Afghanistan and Iran then so has India with China, Bangladesh, Nepal, Srilanka and Burma. Should that not make India a worse country than Pakistan? In fact similar arguments will make US the worst country on the planet. Yet people like him avail all the goodies that India ( like Kalinga Prize) and US (like a good theoretical physics career) offer.

But when Pakistan has good realtions with China then it becomes an irony. It people like him who look for wrongs China is doing to Muslims at the beginning of every Ramadan season. The author himself is a Pakistani yet he simply can not digest anything positive happening for Pakistan - like Pak-China friendship.

If India has good relationship with Iran and Afghanistan then it is again a fault of Pakistan - what a self-hating Pakistani.

Yet let us again analyse the techical info. Iran has extreminated Sunni Islam. Pakistan is predominantly Sunni. That explains the Pakistan-Iran friction. It certainly weighs negatively on Pakistan's side but by the same token China will weigh much more heavily on the positive side.

As far as Afghanistan is concerned he is indulging in a perfidy once again. Is there anyway to differentiate between Afghanistan and the adjescent area in Pakistan? No. So how can we talk of bad relationships in this case. The whole problem is that Afghanistan has been devastated by the west but PH will not take them to task for this monumental human tragedy. For him Najib might have been the most glorious thing to happen to Afghanistan in recent history and the USSR. What a shame.

If India's trade exceeds that of Pakistan with China then we should also consider India's size.

India-China Trade 2014-2015 : 71 Billion US$
Pakistan-China Trade 2015-2016 : 14 Billion US$

This is a five times difference. It gives no actual idea of reality. Next data will.
India GDP : 2.264 Trillion US$
Pakistan GDP : 284 Billion US$

The figures this time are about 8 times in difference.

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It is not just Pakistan. The Muslim monarchies of Saudi Arabia and Qatar, both Wahabi, are practically at war with each other now. Teeny tiny Qatar, say the Saudis, is acting too big for its boots and cannot conduct its own foreign policy. Qatar has dismissed the Saudi-UAE demand to close down Al Jazeera, the Arab world’s only independent news source. In response, all Qataris and their families, as well as 15,000 dancing Qatari camels, have been expelled from Saudi Arabia.

Again PH is trying to find some faults with Muslim countries. A person bearing a Muslim name could be concerned about Muslim welfare. Is PH? Hardly.

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Last year, Saudi Arabia’s highest civilian award was conferred upon Hindu fundamentalist Narendra Modi by King Salman. The Saudi king left Kashmir and pellet guns unmentioned.

True on both accounts. Unfortunately.

The point here is that a Muslim will be perturbed and disappointed at these happenings? People like PH will take all these figures as an evidence of wrongness of Islam. I would like the right to differ.

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Saudi Arabia’s war on Yemen shows the emptiness of the ummah notion. Directed against one of the world’s poorest Muslim countries, it has so far has killed 7,600 and wounded 42,000 Muslims. Most casualties have resulted from air strikes of the Saudi-led multinational coalition. Pakistan has shown little concern. I have yet to see a single TV news report or evening talk show discussing the Yemen war.

People like PH will snear at the notion of Ummah. What pains me more is the sheer lack of concern for Ummah and Muslims in Muslims themselves. Haters and detractors are doing their job well. The problem lies with Muslims themselves. they are not doing their job.

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Ending Israeli occupation of Palestine was once the ummah’s grandest cause that cut through the Shia-Sunni divide. But now, Saudi Arabia is fast nearing rapprochement with Israel. Both countries see Iran as the greater enemy. After the failed Arab Spring, Sisi’s Egypt and the Gulf’s monarchies fear Iran as an insurrectionary power and prefer to work with Israel. Palestine is unmentioned.

Again some concrete evidence in these sentences. All mustered against the Ummah. Where are the people who are Muslims and aspire for unity and cohesion of Ummah?

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Where does this leave the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC), whose job is to bring together and represent the ummah? Based in Saudi Araba, it has 57 member states and calls itself “the collective voice of the Muslim world.” The OIC has had nothing to say about wars that have consumed Syria, Iraq, Libya, or Yemen. Nor is it relevant to any other conflict between Muslim states or that within them. It has yet to give a single cent to desperate refugees who, instead, must rely on the West.

Good question again.
My problem is even simpler. Why have the Muslim youth disappeared even from fora like the MuftiSays?

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Pakistan bought into the OIC fantasy early on. But the euphoria of the 1974 Lahore meeting organised by Zulfikar Ali Bhutto has gone with the wind. What is left is the magnificent flag-adorned building on Constitution Avenue in Islamabad that serves as the headquarters of Comstech, the highest scientific body of the OIC, for which Pakistan pays the lion’s share of its operating expenses.

Sad.

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Comstech is charged with promoting science within the ummah. This is a futile and misplaced effort because science does not have a religion. Add to this the abysmal quality of science in Muslim countries (with Turkey and Iran only partly excluded). Prime minister Suhrawardy once famously remarked, “zero plus zero plus zero is after all still zero”. While he said this of the Arab bloc during the Suez crisis, it’s still truer about scientific cooperation.

Here he completely discounted Pakistan. We got to believe him. Unfortunately.

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It is time to give the OIC a decent burial and end the fantasy that Comstech can serve as the centre of Muslim science. Among the benefits, Comstech’s staff could be put to good use promoting science in Pakistan with the building turned into a public science library or science exploratorium where Pakistani children could be introduced to the wonders of science.

He at his perfidious best.
You just don not see even a hint of his communist agenda of killing Islamic institutions and the fertive working against them. If pakistanis are really that stupid then they deserve it.

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If Muslim states have paid no attention to the ummah, non-state actors have paid even less. They have slaughtered tens of thousands of co-religionists. The Afghan Taliban and the Pakistani Taliban are like two wings of the same bird. One kills Afghan Muslims, the other kills Pakistani Muslims. One finds shelter in Pakistan, the other in Afghanistan. The militant Islamic State group seems to be everywhere and kills with even less concern. There is no sign any of them will fade away soon.

This paragraph is completely fake. PH is least worried about Islam and Muslims.

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There is a way for Muslim states and peoples to move forward. This will require creating strong democratic institutions based on equal rights for all citizens, encouraging the participation of women in public life, and respecting equally all Muslim sects as well as other religions, providing space and freedom to individuals and education for all based on science and reason.

Some face saving nonsense using ideas and agenda that have lost their utility by now.
If not then how come the US has become a developing nation today?

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#63 [Permalink] Posted on 4th August 2017 20:37

We have become rather too much used to self criticism.The umma is on the rise,slowly and painfully but the signs of positive change are everywhere. Alhamdolillah.

The Muslim youth is more aware today of the problems confronting umma,they are trying to assert themselves,they are looking for ways to change the sorroundings. They have not found the way yet but they will,by the grace of Allah.

There was a time that Baghdad was destroyed by Mongoles. It was considered THE END by many but it was not ! Powerful Muslim empires ruled the world even after those tragic times ( Mughals in India,Usmani Turks in Europe and Asia). A few decades ago almost all the Muslim lands were under western occupation,now we have many independent Muslim states.Allah changes the days of individuals as well as the nations. When we were ruling the world and our civilisation was the most superior of all,the west was in 'dark ages'... If they could bounce back so can we, and we will,by the grace of Allah.

I consider the current turmoil in Muslim lands as a necessary training for the future.We are certainly becoming more battle hardened,politically more aware,physically and emotionally more tough (as well as flexible depending on the situation).

Europe learned the basic skills of civic life from Muslim Spain,now we are learning science and technology back from them.This reverse flow may prove a catalyst for our material progress if we know how to be selective in absorbing the good and discarding the evil.

The only thing we need to do is to incorporate FAITH into our modern education system and 'discipline' in our societies. I believe that was the idea behind ALIGARH movement.

I can see light at the end of the tunnel,clear,bright,almost intoxicating and euphoric :)

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#64 [Permalink] Posted on 4th August 2017 23:06

ALIF wrote:

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Salam,

You havn't been posting much lately. Or i have been missing. Good to read you again after a while.

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#65 [Permalink] Posted on 5th August 2017 04:09

ALIF wrote:

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O my!
What a beautiful post.
I have been saying these things for sometime but it is an entirely different experience to see them coming independently from you.
Masha Allah.
I shall copy this in another thread.

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#66 [Permalink] Posted on 5th August 2017 07:58

As-Saif wrote:

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JazakAllah for remembering. I had lost my passward. I tried to get a new one but I received a message that I was labelled as a troll :)

Yesterday I just randomly put a password and it clicked. Unfortunately I don't remember which one did I put. Now as long as I am signed in I may post,if I disappear blame my memory for it :-)

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#67 [Permalink] Posted on 12th August 2017 17:08

BBC Archive on Partition

Collecting 'difficult memories' from the birth of two nations
By Shahzeb Jillani
Lahore

As Pakistan and India turn 70, those who were there for the birth of the two nations are getting old. At least two civil groups are racing against time to document as much of their oral history as possible for future generations.

At a government-run school inside the historical Walled City of Lahore, a teacher lectures a class of 14-year-olds on the creation of Pakistan.

"Muslims were the rulers of this land, but they lost power to the British. They were then oppressed by both the British and the Hindus," Allah Rakha tells his class of 30 or so students.

"Hindus and Muslims are like fire and water. Their lifestyles and belief systems are totally incompatible," he says.

To illustrate his point, he comes up with an example: "Hindus rinse themselves in cow urine because they consider it sacred. For us, that is disgusting. For us, a cow is a Halal animal.

"So when the British were being driven out of India, Muslims said: 'We cannot be left at the mercy of the vile Hindu majority'. They said: 'We are two different nations and we need two separate countries'."
Image copyright Tim Mansel/BBC Image caption Allah Rakha teaches his students that Hindus and Muslims have incompatible lifestyles

Allah Rakha has been teaching this officially approved version of history for well over 30 years. He gets particularly animated when he talks about the mass violence and chaos at the time of India's Partition in 1947.

"Muslims were raped and killed by Hindus. They were driven out of their homes. Their babies were thrown in rivers of blood," he tells his captivated young audience.

A product of Pakistan's government education system, Allah Rakha firmly buys into the religiously inspired one-sided official narrative. It paints Muslims as victims and a Hindu-dominated India as their existential enemy, then and now.

Schoolchildren in Pakistan are generally discouraged, even punished, for asking questions.

And so, in all these years, it has never occurred to Allah Rakha that as a small part of the state's distorted security paradigm, he may have been doing a great disservice to young Pakistanis by sowing the seeds of religious hatred in their impressionable minds.

To be clear, there was plenty of religious violence in 1947. But it wasn't one-sided. Muslims were victims but they were also perpetrators of killings and lootings of Sikhs and Hindus. All three major communities were guilty of appalling atrocities.
Partition of India in August 1947

Perhaps the biggest movement of people in history, outside war and famine.
Two newly-independent states were created - India and Pakistan.
About 12 million people became refugees. Between half a million and a million people were killed in religious violence.
Tens of thousands of women were abducted.
This article is part of a BBC series looking at Partition 70 years on.

Read more:

Partition 70 years on: The turmoil, trauma - and legacy
The friendship that survived the division of a nation
Cyril Radcliffe: The man who drew the partition line
Special report: Partition - 70 years on

Syed Afzal Haider, a retired judge, was 16 at the time. He recalls the scene outside the Lahore Railway Station.

"Nobody was on the road except for the army and the police officers. I found members of different communities, Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs, stabbed, lying on the street, and the stray dogs moving among them," he said.

"That was a very pitiable situation that human corpses are being treated like this by the animals."
Image copyright AFP Image caption Partition left hundreds of thousands dead as communities turned on each other, as here in Amritsar, and millions fled as refugees
Image copyright Tim Mansel/BBC Image caption Syed Afzal Haider recalls seeing victims of all communities lying dead in the road

Mr Haider is among the first generation of Pakistani citizens with an authentic personal account of those tumultuous events. His detailed testimony is now part of a US-based oral history project called the 1947 Partition Archive.

Starting in 2010, the digital archive project has so far collected 4,500 testimonies, making it the largest oral history project from South Asia.

Partition was a seismic event. It affected millions of lives at the time and continues to shape the experiences of 1.6 billion people in South Asia.

"Other nations have been documenting the Holocaust, World War Two and the US bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima for decades," says Dr Guneeta Singh Bhalla, the founder of the project. "Our region woke up to it a bit late but we are getting there."

The project started by crowd sourcing witness interviews through volunteers. Dr Bhalla likes to call them "citizen historians".

"Our youngest volunteer is 13 and eldest is 87. We offer them free online training. We empower them to start by documenting testimonies of family and relatives," she told me over the phone from California.

Today, the 1947 Partition Archive has a global reach, with contributions collected from 12 countries, including US, Spain, Israel, Australia and Hong Kong.

This treasure trove of citizen's voices comes in 22 languages, though much of it is in Urdu, Hindi, Punjabi, Bangla and other regional languages of the subcontinent.

The digital project has recently partnered with Stanford University to make its audiovisual material available for online streaming.

In Pakistan, it is collaborating with Habib University, a Liberal Arts University in Karachi and Lahore University of Management Sciences (LUMS) to host their material locally for researchers, academics and journalists. Similar collaboration is under way with universities in India.
Image copyright Tim Mansel/bbc Image caption Aaliyah Tayyebi says people can tell uplifting stories but rarely admit a role in the violence

Aaliyah Tayyebi, senior project manager of a separate oral history project at Citizen Archive of Pakistan (CAP), says it is "an emotional experience to listen to people dip into some of those difficult and sometimes forgotten memories".

"For many, it's simply overwhelming. Some invariably broke down," she says.

Set up in 2007 by Pakistan's Oscar-winning documentary filmmaker, Sharmeen Obaid Chinoy, CAP has collected more than 2,000 testimonies of people who endured the upheaval of 1947.

"When you listen to people who experienced partition first hand, a different kind of narrative emerges," says Aaliyah Tayyebi. "It's much more personal and often vastly different from the officially-approved established narrative allowed in our history books."

But that doesn't mean it is always accurate. Researchers rarely come across those who perpetrated violence.

"When I talk to people about violence or riots, it's interesting that nobody ever talks about their involvement or their role in it," she says. "Nobody ever says, yes, I went out and I killed people or I burned down houses or I was responsible for pushing my neighbours out because of their religion."

But it's not all grim, she says. Partition certainly brought out the worst in some people. But it also brought out the best among those who had together lived in peace as neighbours.

"We do get some amazing stories of solidarity, where people stick up for their terrified neighbours and provide them shelter; where they went out of their way to welcome refugees."

It's true that in South Asia, governments have been ambivalent about coming to terms with their violent past and preserving their shared heritage.

But as she points out, it's too important a task to be left to the governments.

And that's why grassroots citizen initiatives to document history from the perspective of the people who witnessed it become all the more significant.

Shahzeb Jillani is a former BBC Pakistan correspondent

Source : BBC

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#68 [Permalink] Posted on 16th August 2017 06:43

HOME LAND / PARTITION THEORY!

Arif Ul Islam

August 14 , 2017

(This is Facebook Post by a colleague)

HOME LAND / PARTITION THEORY!
I feel that it is of paramount importance for Indian Muslims to realize that contrary to the general belief that India was partitioned into Muslim Pakistan and Hindu India and that Muslims asked and got a Home Land in the form of Pakistan, Muslim League never demanded a home land for Muslims and neither got it. The all important resolution ,Lahore Resolution passed on 23rd March 1940 only asked for independence of Muslim majority areas in the East and West of India. It is a simple two para resolution given as under,

1-No constitutional plan would be workable or acceptable to the Muslims unless geographical contiguous units are demarcated into regions which should be so constituted with such territorial readjustments as may be necessary.

2-That adequate, effective and mandatory safeguards shall be specifically provided in the constitution for minorities in the units and in the regions for the protection of their religious, cultural, economic, political, administrative and other rights of the minorities.

The second para is more important as it asked for equal fundamental rights for both Hindu and Muslim minorities.

NOW IT IS OUR DUTY TO FIND OUT WHY MUSLIM NATIONALISTS OPTED TO LIE ABOUT THE FACT OF CREATION OF INDIA AND PAKISTAN?

Tariq Farooqui It was a big lie by nationalists and History professors since indepepndence. My mother knew these facts who was only tutored in Maktab of Ustani in a small town in Muzaffarnagar District. Based on her revelation to me, I studied the subject deeply, wrote that article, after collecting the information from various sources. She also knew, land of Indian Punjab+ Haryana+ Himachal Pradesh+ Assam+ Whole north East was proportionate to 36 million muslims left in India. My Mother's home in Delhi was in front of Parda Bagh, near Jama masjid, where all leaders of that time gave speeches and she as teenager picked up sitting & watching from terrace, during height of Pakistan movement 1940-1947.

Anil Maheshwari : In 1937 only 14 per cent population in Uttar Pradesh had the franchise to use in the elections as only a particular class of tax payers and land revenue of certain amount was entitled. If this percentage is applied to the Muslims, it would come to not more than eight per cent. Out of that 25 per cent Muslims (2 per cent) did not vote for the Muslim League. It means only 6 per cent of Muslim population in Uttar Pradesh voted for the partition of the country. Moreover, the Indian leaders danced to the tune of British masters who had made up thir mind even in 1943 to divide India (See the forhcoming movie by Gurinder Chaddha "Partition 47', scheduled to be released in India on Aug 18 this year.)

Tariq Farooqui : Who told you this? It was universal suffarge in 1937. Muslims were 15% of UP but were given weightage to elect 20% of legislature. Parition was only fo muslims majority provinces, Punjab, Frontier, Sindh, Baluchistan, and Bengal. 6 million muslims were swapped for equal no of Hindus and Sikhs. It ws not the partition of rest of India.

Anil Maheshwari : It was not universal franchise.The right to vote had been restricted only to the tax and land revenue (of a particular limit) payers. Only 14 per cent adult population in Uttar Pradesh had this right to vote. Even Punjab did not vote for the Muslim League. It was the Unionist Party of Sir Sikandar Hayat who had won the Assembly elections in Punjab. The British masters wanted an excuse to divide the country on religious lines and the UP verdict came handy to them to enforce thie partition, the Redcliffe line.

Shabi Ahmad : It's afact that majority ofmuslims didn't opt for partition.muslim masses in Bengal Punjab national n w frontier opposed it tooth n nail
Only it was supported by Muslims aristocracy land owning classes Muslim middle class in up n Bihar n Hindus in Muslim majority provinces of course ignited by th British ERs.it was apolitical decision taken by Muslim league Congress n th British govt.

Anil Maheshwari : Excerpts from "Partition" by W.H.Auden: Lord Louis Mountbatten to Sir Cyril Radcliffe: "The Viceroy thinks, as you will see from his letter, that the less you are seen in his company the better. So we have arranged to provide you with other accommodation. We can give you four judges, two Moslem and two Hindu, to consult with, and but the final decision must rest with you... Shut up in a lonely mansion, with police night and day patrolling the gardens to keep the assassins away.”
He got down to work, to the task of settling the fate of millions. The maps at his disposal were out of date and the Census Returns almost certainly incorrect, But there was no time to check them, no time to inspect... Unbiased at least he was when he arrived on his mission. Having never set eyes on this land he was called to partition between two peoples fantastically at odds, With their different diets and incompatible gods. "Time," they had briefed him in London, "is short. It's too late for mutual reconciliation or rational debate: the only solution now lies in separation..."
Marya Mannes writes in a poem in 1959: "Borders are scratched across the hearts of men by strangers with a calm, judicial pen, And when the borders bleed we watch with dread The lines of ink across the map turn red." Mohammad Sajjad

Tariq Farooqui : My argument still the same. Do these history professors and countless journos still have capability to understand the logic used by Sir Cyril Redcliff? Why then 36 million muslims were counted in in India in 1951 census.If these history professors and countless journos understand the partition well, then why every one including they themselves parroted," Muslims loved India and hence stayed back, Muslims loved India and hence ,Muslims loved India and hence stayed back, .........................................!!!!!" countless times and still counting.

Anil Maheshwari : It is the issue of the exploitation of the sentiments of azlafs by the ashrafs.

Tariq Farooqui : Ashraf ajlaf is irrelevent in this debate. You tell me why 36 million mulims were counted in 1951 census if country was divided on religious lines in 1947.

Tariq Farooqui : ये हिस्ट्रीवाले और अख़बारवाले अभी भी नहीँ समझे😀. I am so sure of it. None of them is understanding what did "geographical contiguous units" mentioned in point ( 1) by Arif Ul Islam sb meant in 1940. I challenge them to explain their intrepretation of these words in ML resolution in 1940.

Roushan Ali : Mr Arif, It is your rabid perception of Indian Muslims. Dont impose own ideas to any others .

Arif Ul Islam : Why not? Tell me if it is not a REALITY.

Arif Ul Islam : Roshan Ali sb, yeh batayen keh meri bat kiyon ghalat hai?

Arif Ul Islam : Magar aap bata nahin saklte keh uske liye parhna parega

Syed Tanveer Ahmad Alig : Hahaha

Syed Tanveer Ahmad Alig : Dimag ki upaj ko tareekh samajhne walo ko itni zahmat kyo dena chahte hain Sir.

Jawed Akram : Gurinder Chadha film alone can't pull the curtain from the most watershed moment in the History of India. Our colonial masters knew from the very beginning that it is almost impossible to partition India based on religious line because of the incongruity shared by different communities living together for generations. Take the example of Punjab, especially 'the monumental problem of transferring population from east to west. They knew millions are going to die who who to blame? was it the abysmal security arrangements or the zeal behind obtaining a separate homeland? On the question of Hindu India, this phrase never came in the public but if i humor you all with but one question, 'Did the Congress leadership feigned a golden chance to rule the remaining India in the auspices of communalising the electorate and not to mention the freedom from ever bickering demands of Muslim league? And look at how Maulana was relegated to a position of merely a powerless think tank by allotting him education portfolio? In the end, may be yellow journalism helped the rulers to dupe and brainwash the remaining scapegoat Muslims when tried to join the movement were branded as sectarian and favored partition without knowing the price to pay.

Saleem Peerzada Er : Pof. Arif Ul Islam saheb, it is apathy that most of Muslim commentators are ignorant ,they do not know History of Partition & related documented facts since we Muslims in general are not in habit to read, study and research but are habitual to follow stereo type self generated versions suited to socio/political conditions or compulsions in Indian circumstances. so better avoid to confront those who have a parental legacy to twist historical facts to prove their so called nationalism and patriotism to appease aggressive Majority and its hostile dispensation. we as community are not liberated enough to call a spade a spade.

Arif Ul Islam : It is a monumental tragedy that even university professors do not want to read and reflect,what to speak of ordinary Muslims. But we have to confront them come what may.

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#69 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd August 2017 07:36

I wonder why Pakistanis do not correct this man on his views that are a complete misrepresentation of Qur'anic teachings.

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#70 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd August 2017 09:23

For last few days I have got tremendous increment in my Aqeedat in Qayad-e-Azam because of his selfless service to the cause of Muslims. The idea germinated because of the rampant selfishness in the Aligarians, particularly of today's university campus, of modern generation.

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#71 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd August 2017 11:23

Maripat wrote:

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You are a liar, Hassan Nisar Sahab.

"Shayari mubalgha hai, isi liye Islam shayari ke khilaf hai." (Hassan Nisar's words)

And I wonder why you praise Ghalib and call him a symbol of creativity! You only hate Iqbal because his poetry was completely soaked into Islam.

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#72 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd August 2017 11:51

bint e aisha wrote:

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Quote:

Islam and Poetry

By Mufti Bilaal Cassim
POSTED: 8 RAJAB 1423, 15 SEPTEMBER 2002

CHECKED AND APPROVED: Mufti Ebrahim Desai

Q.) What does Islam say about poets and any type of poetry? Is poetry other than romance allowed in Islam? Please give me a detailed answer about the poetry and poets. [Ali]

A.) Ubayy Ibn Ka'ab, Radi-Allahu anhu, reports Rasulullah (s.a.w) as having said; "Poetry contains (much) wisdom." (Mishkaat with Mirqaat Vol. 9 Pg. 122 Ashrafiyyah).

Mullah Ali Qari (r.a), a renowned Muhaddith explains that poetry containing truth, wise words, advices, useful parables, etc. that are of benefit to mankind, as well as those containing praises of Allah and Nabi Sall-Allahu alayhi wa sallam, promoting abstinence from worldly luxuries, exhortation towards the Aakhirah and other aspects of Deen are indeed praiseworthy. Poetry devoid of these things is malignant and disliked. (e.g. songs containing lewdness or depictive of sins etc.) The words of the Qur'an (viz. "(As for) the Poets, only the misguided follow them. Can you not see their (aimless) wandering in the valleys, their statements devoid of action?" As-Shu'araa: 224-226) and the Ahadith maligning poetry refer to these kinds of poetry.

Thereafter he mentions that poetry is a form of speech and must be judged by the same standard. i.e beneficial poetry is like beneficial speech and useless and evil poetry like useless and evil speech) (Mirqaat VOl.9 Pg. 122 Ashrafiyyah).

From this principle we can deduce that recital or composition of romantic poetry is permissible (and even rewarding) only if it is for one's spouse with the intention of promoting love and tenderness and providing it is free of lewdness or obscenity, much the same as a loving or kind word. When not for one's spouse, it is not permissible.

And Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

www.albalagh.net/qa/islam_and_poetry.shtml
[/quote]

Yet, there is this Hadith (Need verification of authenticity)

[quote]Abu Umamah Narated that the Prophet (saw)

said: “When Shaitan had descended to the earth,
He said: “Oh Lord! You made me descend to the earth an outcast, appoint for me a home.”
Allah Said: “It is the bathrooms.”
He said: “Make me an assembly (gatherings).”
Allah said: “It is markets and shopping places.”
Shaitan asked again: “Assign for me food.”
Allah said: "It is every food on which the Name Of Allah has not been mentioned (pronounced).”
He said: “Decide for me a drink.”
Allah said: “It is wine (intoxicants)."
He said: “Appoint for me a caller (an announcer).”
Allah said: “It is musical instruments.”
He said: “Make for me a Quran.”
Allah said: “Poetry.”
He said: “Decide for me a writing.”
Allah said: “Tatooing.”
Shaitan said: “Assign me a discourse (talk/chat).”
Allah said: “Lying.”
Then he said: “Appoint for me messengers.”
Allah said: “The fortunetellers and soothsayers.”
Shaitan said: “Decide for me a hunting means with which I can hunt (trap).”
Allah said: “Women.”
(Tabarani)
www.muftisays.com/blog/abu+mohammed/250_08-04-2010/shaita...

There are Haram anti Shariah Poetry and there is also Halal Shari' Poetry

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#73 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd August 2017 12:03

Maripat wrote:

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Do we need to correct him ? We in Pakistan don't take him seriously. Trust me !

Many people have a craze to speak something different,to look unique,to challenge established views (even if those are right) to give an impression of being independent minded.

Such people are best ignored !

Who were those mentioned here ? :
و اذا خاطبهم الجاهلون قالوا سلاما

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#74 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd August 2017 12:16

abu mohammed wrote:

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"Shayari mubalgha hai, isi liye Islam shayari ke khilaf hai." (Hassan Nisar's words)

These are not my words.

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#75 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd August 2017 15:45

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Do we need to correct him ? We in Pakistan don't take him seriously. Trust me !

I would like to trust you ya akhi.
But I shall wait for some more evidence to the same effect that he is really ignored by Pakistanis.
There is an Indian leftist intellectual in the state of Bihar who is very fond of Hassan Nisar Sahab.
My feeling is that he is doing considerable damage to the cause of Muslim Ummah.
You tube is filled with videos that feature him.
If so many of his videos are there with so many views then there must be people who are taking him seriously.
I fear that amongst those who listen to him might be young Muslims.
Sooner or later these young Muslims will get discouraged from thinking and acting like Muslims.
That will be a loss.
I fear that this loss might be already occurring.

Quote:

Many people have a craze to speak something different,to look unique,to challenge established views (even if those are right) to give an impression of being independent minded.

My assessment is that he is a run of the mill secular journalist who is considerably knowledgeable.
Such people are capable of causing damage to Ummah because they present a rather attarctive picture of the world that is not very Islamic.

Quote:

Such people are best ignored !

Who were those mentioned here ? :
و اذا خاطبهم الجاهلون قالوا سلاما

If I ignore him, if Muslims ignore him then he gets full opportunity to work against what rasoolallah SAW wanted from us.

But in case he is really a harmless fool then I shall be very happy to ignore him.

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