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#601 [Permalink] Posted on 6th November 2019 00:46
Logic of the Intellectuals

If a Mister eats an elephant, he is still a hero. However, if a Mullah kills an ant, he is a terrorist.
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#602 [Permalink] Posted on 6th November 2019 06:56
ALIF wrote:
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The fact is IMRAN KHAN and THE ARMY has practically done ‘nothing’ for Kashmir since its annexation by Modi. It was very obvious that apart from china (with its own interest in Laddakh) no one was diplomatically supporting Pakistan over the issue of Kashmir, including our Arab Muslim brothers. Only Mahatir and Erdogan spoke openly in our support, that is about all....

One of the things that can be (unfairly) used against Imran Khan is that he could not managed either UAE or Saudi Arabia in tis matter. Both of these countries most shamefully sided with the Saffron rules in India.

I am calling this allegation unfair because one has to take the whole picture in. Imran Khan took even a bigger step that any Maulana of JUI could take - he pushed most courageously for a complete reorientation of Pakistan's international policy for which he still has to face the repercussions. In fact Maulana's Dharna was a punishment by the US for Imran Khan's audacity and yet brothers here at MS still keep asking questions about what Imran Khan has done. Imran Khan spoke like a man and not a sold out agent. And I have posted a Facebook post by an Indian commentator that clearly says that Imran Khan has to pay the price for his mistake of walking out of US camp in the foreign policy matters.
Quote:

Newyark times and Washington post did publish a few articles to keep record straight about human rights, but it was not for the interest of Pakistan, but for human rights violations.

Even then this shift in their editorial policy came in the wake of Imran Khan's speech and that angle should not be ignored by those brothers who are for the Maulana and against Imran Khan.
Quote:

Pakistan could gain some attention only, if it had moved its forces to forward positions, even if it did not seriously mean war. Even a threat of war would have turned the issue into a truely ‘international affair’ as nobody could afford a nuclear war. Pakistan under the leadership of Imran khan and General Bajwa, clearly ruled out a war over Kashmir, and made it abundantly clear that they will go to war ‘only’ if Azad kashmir was attacked. That was not only a disgrace but betrayal. It gave Modi a free hand in kashmir.

That is an interesting angle. I suppose I shall use this point to burry some information that I do not want to write under some headline. Ever since I realized this I have been disturbed.
I came to the realization that India can attack any target inside Pakistan and that is why they, army, politician and civilians keep talking of taking Pakistan out of the world map. Pakistan, on the other hand, does not have the option to retaliate in kind. At least on paper. Here is my argument. Pakistan can not attack severely (real use of dangerous weapons) Kashmir and Punjab. From Pakistan's point of view these are friendly places. Then Delhi, Aligarh, Saharanpur (Deoband), Bareilly, Rampur, Moradabad, Agra, Lucknow, Mumbai and many such places too are out because these places have from twenty to forty five percent Muslim populations. A war with India is much more unpleasant possibility for Pakistan than it is for India - not only because of area and economy size and military size but other considerations too like the above one.


Quote:
Kashmiris were looking towards Pakistan, but Pakistan was looking towards kashmiris to come out on streets and make more sacrifices. Is that how IK and General Bajwa intended to help Kashmiris and the cause of Kashmir, did they really think Modi will back off by a few songs created by ISPR ? Did they think they will win kashmir by singing and dancing ? Or a very good speech at UNGA ? Was that the ‘effort’ which Maulana was compromising by announcing a dharna ? No, they were/are clearly presenting his dharna as an excuse to hide their own incompetence and cowardice over the issue. History will remember the two gentlemen as party to the sellout on kashmir.....

I think you are mixing issues here my brother.
Quote:

Maulana’s inaction as chairman of largely ceremonial kashmir committee is NOTHING as compared to this shameful ‘betrayal’ on kashmir.

I am not sure about that but this still does not justify that Imran Khan should be politically isolated at a time when so much of interests of the Ummah were at stake.

Quote:
Imran khan was a nobody in politics before 2011, when General Shuja Pasha (the then head of ISI) started helping him. Up untill then, he could only win his own seat from Mianwali on second attempt. How did he come to political prominence? Only one answer : ‘He was picked by army to create a third force against Nawaz and Zardari’. He was supported by army in his dharna against nawaz, and then in elections.Despite rigged elections,even today, PTI plus its political allies have a very slim majority of 5 seats in the national assembly. The moment he tries to show his teeth to the military establishment he will be ‘out of office’ in a very legal way. He is indeed ‘selected’ not ‘elected’, and no one can refute it.


Politics is not a trivial thing and I on my part would agree that Imran Khan did not start acting like a deft politician from day one. And this is what will bring me back to the Maulana - has he faired better than Imran Khan when it comes to the interests of the Ummah. Or even Pakistan.

Quote:
The Army is still supporting him, because it is ‘them’ who are in power through IK, and he is no more than a helpless ‘puppet’ in their hands. He is a total failure on all fronts, and i have a feeling those who brought him to power are now distancing themselves from him, though they will not do it under pressure. The current relief to nawaz and Maryam should ring alarm bells in his ears.....

This is a point where I would like to fall on the side of the liberal democrats - the army is just an instrument and it should not become a player.

Quote:
He is on his way out, not through any dharna, but through other apparently constitutional mechanisms. He has served the purpose for which he was brought, now it is time to discard him....

The US has a vice like grip over Pakistan and that includes army. Like the Kashmir issue, the economy the handling of the army should be taken as a parameter and I on my part can not remain a neutral and impartial observer of these things. I suppose I have made my inclinations amply clear to all the brothers and sisters who agree or disagree with me - wholly or partially.

As always I am keenly watching the things. I'll love whatever Imran Khan can do for Ummah and I'd have loved it if Maulana would have done it but by now he has lost my support.
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#603 [Permalink] Posted on 6th November 2019 06:56
sipraomer wrote:
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Kindly repeat your question.
sipraomer wrote:
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If I filter this post I end up with the following question: Imran Khan has failed to keep his promises on economy.

This is a stock question that is usually hurled by the opposition against a ruling party, anywhere in the world.

India had an economist who dealt with the economy most deftly and brought the economy to the levels where India has already become a force to reckon with at the international level. Pakistan lags seven or nine times behind.

Clear Imran Khan has no Dr Manmohan Singh to back him. But no one has been holding Imran Khan's hand to locate and bring on board a second line Dr Manmohan Singh. This is something that can easily be done.

There is another excuse that can be rallied in favour of Imran Khan. Immediately after the independence Jawahar Lal Nehru went on a spree of scientific, technological, academic and industrial rejuvenation of India. To the best of my knowledge Pakistan had no one with similar vision, even a poor imitation. In fact After the independence movement stalwarts were gone Pakistan lapsed into most cheap political opportunism and was punished by destiny by inflicting most vision-less and corrupt politicians.

Indeed comparison of Imran Khan should not be with Indian story. His comparison should be with all those opportunists of the past - the Bhuttos, Nawaz Sharief, Zardari and the kind.

Since economy is not my field I am hampered to give a reliable answer but for that I have to dig up the data of last one and half a year. And there lies the rub - Imran Khan and his reputation should be dragged into mud just after one and half a year because he does not have a beard and is perhaps a Barelwi?

I am sorry I take my Deen from Deoband but if Barelwis and Salafis make contributions to the lot of Ummah and make sacrifices for it then I reserve my rights to appreciate their work.
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#604 [Permalink] Posted on 6th November 2019 07:44
Maripat wrote:
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یہ معاملے ہیں نازک جو تیری رضاء ہو کر تو
کہ مجھے تو خوش نہ آیا رہ و رسم خانقاہی

“Ye muamele hain nazuk jo teri Raza ho kar tu
Ke mujhe to khush na aya rah o rasme khanqahi “

You may replace “Rah o rasme khanqahi” with “the ways IK is running things”



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#605 [Permalink] Posted on 6th November 2019 08:23
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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"Deobandi" Logic: Part 4

Maulana Fazlur-Rahman

Deobandi Maulana
Graduate of Deobandi Darul-uloom
President of the Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam (F) which is a "Deobandi" organisation

Imran Khan is a Yahoodi (Jew) agent!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTOsR_6IXvQ

Very distressing video.
Quote:
Anchor: Maulana, This is a grave accusation to call a Muslim a Yahoodi Agent, what is the evidence?

Maulana: My own responsible personality is the evidence.

Anchor: Maulana, You just said that a Muslim should behave appropriately and should not...

Maulana: When did I say something harsh? Tell me what did I say which is harsh?

Anchor: Maulana, A leader is sitting in UK (we have solid proof that he is an Indian agent) but you want to reconcile with him? Imran Khan is a Muslim in Pakistan and you are calling him a Yahoodi Agent?

Maulana: There is no reconciliation with that other leader, we brought facts about him in front of the Nation at that time too. We work in democracy and in a democracy we have to put our voice in front of the people.

Anchor: So if it is down to people deciding then "Muslims of Pakistan" gave more votes to Imran Khan more than you so he is a Muslim, how can he be a Yahoodi Agent? Democracy has spoken, has it not?

Maulana: ....(Silence for a few seconds) then let's leave the matter to the future, lets leave these small details aside.

Anchor: Maulana, you are a president of a Deeni (Islamic) party and it has thousands of (Islamic) Scholars in it and you are accusing Imran Khan of me a Yahoodi agent. You know the situation in Pakistan as to how many people have been assasinated based on doubt...

Maulana: There is no doubt, it is a FACT!

Anchor: Maulana, So if an extremist kills Imran Khan based on your accusation of him being a "Yahoodi Agent" will you accept responsibility?

Maulana: Our fight is with the colonial system and legacy of the colonial system

Anchor: Maulana, Was Zardari (whom you backed) not preserving the legacy colonial system? You stayed with Zardari but you never called him such things?

Anchor: Maulana, The (independent) Abbottabad commission proved that Zardari and Rehman Malik gave US (access to Pakistan) and visas etc so why did align yourself with them and don't call them "Yahoodi Agent?"

Maulana: I said these things at the time.

No Answer as to why an Islamic leader of an Islamic party can call someone a "Yahoodi (Jewish) Agent" without evidence.


Politics is a dirty game these days and in Pakistan it is particularly so. Maulana seems to be doing even better than the conventional politicians. But this attitude does not auger well for Pakistan.

And if PTI people are doing the same then they too are guilty of wrong doing. Frankly speaking I have never heard Imran Khan doing that.
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#606 [Permalink] Posted on 6th November 2019 09:26
Maripat wrote:
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That simply means you have not heard ‘enough’ of Imran Khan :)
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#607 [Permalink] Posted on 6th November 2019 09:31
(1) Though there is considerable amount of acrimony in this discussion but my request to all concerned people is that we should reach at least an explicit agree to disagree point.

(2) On my part I do take Imran Khan as a hero but hero worship is a sin that can not admit to.

(3) I am in a state of complete disenchantment as far as Maulana Fazl-ur-Rahman Sahab is concerned. I had heard only his political speeches but the brief interview linked earlier only gave further heart burn because on the score of politeness he did not best Imran Khan.

(4) Just because I feel fallen out with the Maulana it does not mean I am going to hold every Maulavi on the same scale. Far from it.

(5) What Maulana is, what Maulana does is his personality - I am not going to define Deoband taking him as the specimen.

(6) I'll also request Khan Sahab, Muadh Khan, to avoid characterizing Deoband on the basis of reactions of the boys here. This distinction has to be made in spite of the fact that the boys are reacting in a manner that is the defining line of action.

(7) Why this distinction? Because dabbling in politics is not the Deoband forte. They started with the Shamli G!h@d in 1857, then established Deoband, there was Silken Letters Movement and Government in Exile in Afghanistan and the Jamiat and in Pakistan there is JUI.

(8) In all this the politics of Pakistan is the dirtiest game that our Ulama have walked into. In this case there are bound to be mistakes.

(9) I suppose Taliban is the best report card in this story but that we have to talk in other specific threads.

(10) After seeing Khan Sahab's economics assessment post I realize that the economy argument against Imran Khan does not hold that much of water.
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#608 [Permalink] Posted on 6th November 2019 09:39
sipraomer wrote:
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Quote:
Logic of the Intellectuals

If a Mister eats an elephant, he is still a hero. However, if a Mullah kills an ant, he is a terrorist.

Did someone call Maulana Fazlur Rahman a terrorist? Diesel I have read several time but not terrorist. And for the record I have not used the epithet Diesel myself and I do not intend to do so.

ALIF wrote:
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Quote:

یہ معاملے ہیں نازک جو تیری رضاء ہو کر تو
کہ مجھے تو خوش نہ آیا رہ و رسم خانقاہی

“Ye muamele hain nazuk jo teri Raza ho kar tu
Ke mujhe to khush na aya rah o rasme khanqahi “

You may replace “Rah o rasme khanqahi” with “the ways IK is running things”

I am really ashamed that I gave an opportunity for you to get even with Allama Iqbal for his remarks against Khanqah.

But you do have a right to disagree with Imran Khan's work. In my view he is the best thing that has happened to Pakistan after the Qaid-e-Azam. What happens in future is Allah SWT's Will.

ALIF wrote:
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Quote:
That simply means you have not heard ‘enough’ of Imran Khan :)

That might be true but I do need some sample to revise my assessment.
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#609 [Permalink] Posted on 6th November 2019 09:47
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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So basically it is slander?
Surah 49 Al-Hujuraat Verse: 12 | سورة الحجرات

The other reason I heard was that it was because he was married to Jemmima, who actually embraced Islam at the time.

Maybe we are forgetting Safiyyah bint Huyayy رضي الله عنه
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#610 [Permalink] Posted on 6th November 2019 09:48
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#611 [Permalink] Posted on 6th November 2019 09:51
bint e aisha wrote:
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Quote:

Imran Khan => Maulana Diesel

Imran Khan => Bilawal Bhutto Sahiba

Brother ALIF did you mean this kind of speeches?
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#612 [Permalink] Posted on 6th November 2019 10:03

Maripat wrote:
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On my part I do take Imran Khan as a hero but hero worship is a sin that can not admit to.

No, I don't believe that Imran Khan is a Hero or even the best but he is better than his (recent) predecessors and he is certainly better than Maulana at Governance & Islamic implementation. "Maulana" held an iron grip on Balochistan from 1998-2018 and held the reins of KPK for a number of years.

During his rule, both provinces had no Islamic laws no improvements in any civil society. The issue is not about him being a "Maulana" although his character, behavior and attitude is a far cry from that lofty status but he is most certainly not an able Administrator of any kind.

  1. Being a "Maulana" does not mean that if we back him when he fails to implement basic Qur'aanic education
  2. Being a "Maulana" does not mean that if we back him when he fails to implement Hijab/Niqab in Schools
  3. Being a "Maulana" does not mean that if we back him when he supported Musharraf the butcher of our children
  4. Being a "Maulana" does not mean that if we back him when he supported Benzir the woman who dented Khalistan movement and turned thousands of Sunnah following people to the CIA on mere suspicion of Terrorism
  5. Being a "Maulana" does not mean that if we back him when he supported Benazir & turned 150 orphan (Chinese) children in Madaris back to China who were executed in cold blood at the border

Imran Khan has done nothing of that sort and his record as an Administrator is better.

These "Deobandees" are two faced hypocrites (in English & not Arabic) because they hated Benazir & Musharaf but have nothing to say about "Maulana" who supported them along the way. In his speech on the 3rd of November 2019 he openly said it again that his role in protecting "Democracy" has been exemplary.

We don't want Democracy at the cost of (orphan) Madrasa children being shot to pieces and executed. "Deobandees" may be so shameless in their partisanship but ordinary Pakistanees know and understand the role of "Maulana" and he will not rise again (politically). My fear is that by aligning themselves with "Maulana" these Deobandees are actually damaging Islam and Sunnah because ordinary Pakistanees are actually equating Islam and Deobandi'ism with "Maulana". I believe that crackdown on Madaris is coming and these "Deobandees" will rise against Imran Khan when it is not him but "Maulana" who is the reason. There are thousands of Jihadees carrying weapons in the Nation's capital 7 KM from the Parliament and sensitive institutions, what do these "Deobandees" think that the state would do?

Quote:
After seeing Khan Sahab's economics assessment post I realize that the economy argument against Imran Khan does not hold that much of water.

The level of basic research skills among "Deobandees" is dire. They have just heard of "IMF" but what they are not aware or are unwilling to accept that for the first time Pakistan has actually paid back Interest and loan payments so the actually liability related tousury in net rate is actually lower under Imran Khan. It does not befit any Nation to be burdened with debt and if things stay favorable the curse of usury will be reduced further within the next 18 months and these are cold hard facts of Imran Khan. When you read the research of Mufti Taqi Usmani (HA) he does not propose (rashly) defaulting on loans, he suggests gradually weaning the Nation off and that's exactly what Imran Khan says (although not for Qur'aan/Sunnah but economic reasons). These "Deobandees" don't understand that nobody wants IMF loans or interest based loans, forget a Muslim even Non-Muslims don't want a nation saddled with debt. Forget nations, people don't like loans and particularly interest based loans. Do you know anyone in your life who just takes a loan because they want to be in debt?

The alternative is to DEFAULT which has NEVER been proposed by any Ulama. First bring a Fatwa from major Ulama that in case of (interest) based debts a person or nation should simply abscond and default. Nobody proposes anything like that at all. Imran Khan has only been in power for a little over a year, what do these "Deobandees" want him to do?

bint e aisha wrote:
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This is the clear example of bias and partisanship.

I am not defending Imran Khan or anyone who accuses or slanders anyone. It is despicable and wrong no matter who perpetrates it

However, there has to be a difference in behavior between a Secular Cricketer and a Maulana/Mufti, otherwise how can you consider Ulama to be inheritors of Prophets? Is this how "Prophets" behaved? Did the Prophets began cursing and using bad language when they were abused? Forget Prophets, did the Ulama behave in this manner? Did Imam Abu Haneefa (RA) did this or advocated cursing, slandering others

An Alim/Mufti should set the example and display exemplary behavior and not curse no National TV just because Imran Khan curses, slanders and accuses. Who is the role model for these "Deobandees"? Imran Khan or Nabi (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam)?

abu mohammed wrote:
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You live in the west and plenty of good brothers have made disastrous relationship choices and have children from (Haram or Halal) relationships which are not on the Deen. My Duas are with these Brothers but neither Islam nor (basic human decency) holds them responsible for the actions of adult mature children and may Allah Ta'ala ease everyone's pain and suffering (Ameen).

I know grown men who cry with tears about their children but unable to do anything about these issues. The wife and children of Prophet Nuh (AS) were not only Non-Muslims but open aggressors towards Allah Ta'ala and believers.

Loading Qur'aan Verse

Loading Qur'aan Verse

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#613 [Permalink] Posted on 6th November 2019 10:15
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I apologise sir, I did not mean to be sarcastic. Allama just comes handy in many different situations :)

I am certainly not into arguments. I don’t mind Maulana being criticised or even deoband being criticised. I consider the ‘movement’ of deoband as ‘thing of the past’. It’s ideology is the ideology of Ahle sunnat, May Allah keep it alive till the end.

Politicians come and go...

People used to be enthusiastic about Bhutto once, may be more than Imran khan. We are in much deeper troubles as an Ummah to be discussing ‘personalities’...

I try my best to maintain respect while posting, specially yourself and Muad khan deserves my gratitude as I have learned a lot from both of you.
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#614 [Permalink] Posted on 6th November 2019 10:58
I have stopped wasting my time with trolls and I don't care anymore about the assumptions and accusations they make against me. Allah is enough to deal with that.

So far I've not seen anyone on this forum who is defending Maulana. People are just pointing out the blind love which some of us have for Imran Khan. That does not make anyone a supporter of Maulana. There are some people in Pakistan like Zaid Zaman Hamid who just need an opportunity to bash Deobandis. If someone is a Deobandi it does not mean that he supports JUI. But some people are so biased that they will never acknowledge this.

Lastly I reject the accusation that Imran Khan is a Jewish agent unless you provide me with evidence. Similarly I reject the accusation that Maulana Fazlur Rahman is a CIA agent unless you provide me with evidence, period.
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#615 [Permalink] Posted on 6th November 2019 11:26

bint e aisha wrote:
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Quote:
CLEAR STATEMENT IGNORED: I am not defending Imran Khan or anyone who accuses or slanders anyone. It is despicable and wrong no matter who perpetrates it.

  1. A Maulana/Mufti has to be held to a higher standard compared to an ordinary Muslim.
  2. A Maulana/Mufti is not allowed to transgress the Shariah even when an ordinary Muslim does so

Which bit of these two statements is trolling and why?

Double Standards:

  1. You keep assuming that we have love for Maulana and your assumption is wrong
  2. But our assumption that you have love for Imran Khan is entirely valid and justified.

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