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#316 [Permalink] Posted on 6th October 2019 22:39

ALIF wrote:

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These youngsters who are card carrying members of "Deobandism" don't remember statements like this from the predecessors of Maulana Fazlur-Rahman Saheb:

اللہ کا شکر ہے کہ ھم پاکستان بنانے کے گناہ میں شامل نہیں تھے

All Praise be to Allah Ta'ala that we were not involved in the sin of creation of Pakistan!

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#317 [Permalink] Posted on 7th October 2019 05:41

Muadh_Khan wrote:

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Agreed sir, they have also forgotten the statement by deobandi elders that :

“Pakistan is now like a masjid, there may be disagreements on building a masjid before building it, but once built it is the duty of every Muslim to respect and safeguard it”

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#318 [Permalink] Posted on 7th October 2019 06:45

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What "political government"? When has such a government ever existed in its pure form? There has always been interference and arm-twisting by the powers that be. Even if such a government came to power, do you really think this is the solution to our problems? Politics? Democracy?

I doubt that even Maulana is delusional enough to think that calling for a re-election is gonna mean a true political government can finally be formed, even if an election does take place. No, I think this is more or less about signalling to the powers that be that enough is enough and we, the common people of Pakistan have had enough of this high-handedness and deception of the military.

Many are worried about the bad consequences, like civil war. Well, nothing good is achieved by just giving speeches from a podium. Sometimes you need to get your hands dirty. Sometimes what you need is for a few good men to sacrifice their comfort and lives to achieve the "greater good".

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#319 [Permalink] Posted on 7th October 2019 07:54

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It is a fact that Maulana has not given any ‘solid reason’ so far, as to why he felt it necessary to do it NOW when the country needs all its focus on kashmir.

That is why one should become alert. Politics has to be simple. Conspiracy not. When politics ceases to be simple it is time to be alarmed because a conspiracy might be brewing and when a conspiracy runs its course there is precious little left to be done. And the loss is always significant to the unacceptable limits.

Oriya Maqbool Jan enumerated that four different type of people were unhappy with Imran Khan's foreign policy drive. Like India, west, opposition and his critics. When an opposition leader disagrees on a foreign policy issue then he has to be very cautious because no political establishment can afford to send out a confusing signal to the other countries. Maulana cared two hoots about it.

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Having said that, it looks like Maulana has successfully convinced his support base to come out on streets.

Sadly he seems to be having a bigger support base as compared to Maulana Shaheed Abdur Rasheed Ghazi.

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It is also a fact that Maulana would not have started such a big move on his own, someone, a party or some institution or agency may have promised him support. Those who knows Maulana would agree with me.

From a panel discussion on a channel in Pakistan I got the impression that earlier some other opposition parties supported his move but slowly their support will merely be moral only and the leaders like Bilawal will not be physically present. It is clear that Bilawal, an inexperienced boy, realized his mistake of going against the grain of National interests and the interests of the Ummah.

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Government can not be dislodged by lock downs. IK will remain a legal prime minister, even if the PM HOUSE and parliament is captured by the activists. This obvious fact must be known even to Maulana, so what is the real agenda ?

Before knowing those reasons it is unreasonable to support him against Imran Khan just because he happens to be a Maulana.

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Unlike the impression taken, i am a man of nobody. I have no personal interest in IK or Maulana. My interest is Islam and Pakistan. Any chaos will deflect attention away from kashmir and that will be a tragedy....

In that case Imran Khan deserves equal Husn-e-Zann.

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Moreover, any third party may take advantage of the huge crowed, and create a situation where the activists and law enforcers may come face to face or God forbid, there may be a blast killing the protesters or some important personality may be assassinated, making the situation worse.I hope some powerful people intervene to stop the movement.

A bit of guesswork involved here. From that point of view the political risk in Maulana's actions is not more then the normal.

We, on the regular side of a Maulana taking a strong stand beyond normal levels know an example earlier. Lal Masjid.

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My point that Imran is not capable enough is proved by Imran khan himsel during his one year rule. (As i had studied his personality, and i knew ordinary people don't change overnight, i predicted it before hand. No prejudice involved). Nobody expected miracles from him but he has failed even to give a clear direction to the country and the economy. Every thing can not be blamed on previous corruptions. For how long ???

Basically the point in this paragraph is that since Imran Khan's economic policies are not up to the mark I allot his foreign policy must be a suspect. It is difficult to agree with this line.

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If a very pious doctor can not treat his patients, we still consider him pious but ‘incompetent’ ; If an otherwise very good captain can’t make good use of his team, he is incompetent ; If a general can’t lead his soldiers to victory, he is incompetent !

Is it so difficult to understand ?

It is indeed difficult to understand because alleged and supposed incompetence in economic policy sector is being transferred to foreign policy. Moreover benefit of piety is being offered to a person whose piety should be decided his political actions and not his Madarsa actions because he is in politics out of his own volition.

May be I am missing some serious lacuna in Imran Khan's personality.

****

On Giving Benefit of Doubt to a Maulana

Kaleem Siddiqui Sahab has given the impression to Mufti Taqi Usmani Sahab and Maulana Tariq Jameel Sahab and Mufti Tariq Masood Sahab that he has brought a large number of Hindus to the fold of Islam numbering in hundreds of thousands.

The matter of fact is that this is not true. Dr Zakir Naik brought a few and he lost millions of rupees of his wealth and had to leave the country. The Hindu is not very tolerant about Islam progressing in India.

But Kaleem Sahab continues his activities. Maulana Salman Hussaini Nadvi brought a booklet sserting that Kaleem Sahab neither completed his Madarsa course of Dars-e-Nizami nor he is a Khalifa of Ali Miyan RA. Nor he runs 450 Madarsas in India. Number of Madarsas he runs is very small.

He used to write romantic stories in Urdu magazines and now he has been churning the stories of those who naturally came to Islam into romantic stories. And the stories of coming to Islam that he has written are much more in number than the actual candidates we know in public.

But after giving it a huge thought I decided to give him the benefit of doubt. I agree that he is a Dayee. I am ignoring the money he collects that is disproportionate to the number of Madarsas he is running.

That is the limit of my Husn-e-Zann.

Second case of Husn-e-Zann. I have also decided to ignore the significant amount of donations that Pir Zulfiqar Sahab might be collecting. I do not grudge him that at all. He has done a lot for Islam. My only caution is that we should not allow our female folks to consult him.

*****

Case of Maulana Fazl-ur-rahman Sahab is completely different. As it has historically happened politics is not part of theological establishment. Even if the theological establishment decided to make politics part of its activity then we as the public do have the right to decide that they too must go under the same scrutiny that the usual politicians are supposed to do.

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#320 [Permalink] Posted on 7th October 2019 07:57

sipraomer wrote:

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Imran Khan is a politician and he is not a Maulawi.
In his dealings with the minorities he has proved to be secular while in governance he has shown that much inclination to Islam as a person like me would desire.
And all these issues are rather crystal clear.

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#321 [Permalink] Posted on 7th October 2019 08:04

fod1083 wrote:

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The real calamity amongst the Muslims right now is that if some secular-minded person is doing something doubtful or suspicious it is expected by the Muslims to observe husn-e-dhan about him, no matter how "incompetent" that person has proved himself to be. But when a Maulana does something they don't understand, it's immediately assumed to be because he is corrupt or doing it on behalf of some power that be.

To me it looks as if it is the other way round.

Quote:

I personally want this military regime that is being run under the "Bajwa doctrine" toppled. And if that means I have to support Maulana Fazl-ur-Rehman for that to happen, then I am all for it. I simply do not care for the delusional PTI or IK supporters.

I have not seen any indications that General Bajwa dominates over Imran Khan.

Generals have dominated the elected representatives in Pakistan because of US, CIA. From all the indications from public life I do not see any shred of evidence that Imran has been pocketed by the US. I do not know whether General Bajwa has successfully resisted the US, CIA enticement. But from public posture I do not have any evidence that he is sold out.

May be I am missing some links.

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#322 [Permalink] Posted on 7th October 2019 08:08

There are some more posts that I can respond to but I am going to give these a pass because I think I have already explained my point of view in sufficient detail. Boys have complete freedom to disagree with parts of or the whole point of view that I bear at the moment.

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#323 [Permalink] Posted on 7th October 2019 10:42

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Since 1947 Pakistan has to deal with a country 6 times bigger with a 9 time bigger economy and 3 times bigger Army. Military leadership has REPEATEDLY stated that they do not wish to get involved with running the country but in the past they did not have a choice because corruption has a direct impact on military readiness so they have to impose Martial law.

Pakistani Military has limited resources and operationally and tactically they DO NOT and CANNOT afford to run the country.

Pakistan Military are not Sahaba but they are a down side more professional and "less corrupt" then Pakistan politicians. Once again, not Sahaba, not perfect but better then politicians!

India has massive military buildup at the borders, Kashmir is in lock down and Pakistan (Eastern & Western) border is hot. Under the circumstances you would be STUPID not to listen to General Bajwa.

Democratic Institutions in India are a lot more stable and secure then Pakistan.

Imran Khan is Secular/Qadiyani/Jew/Kaafir, fair enough....

Maulana Fazlur-Rahman (HA) was the head of Kashmir committee for 10 years, he had a car, a house and all other perks, what did he do in those 10 years for Kashmir?

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#324 [Permalink] Posted on 7th October 2019 10:46

Maripat wrote:

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He must be clear about the ideology of his party. If he talks about Riyasat e Madinah then he must remove the secular element from his party (which he cannot due to parliamentarian system of government). If he is not able to do so then he must not talk about Riyasat e Madina and must say that he wants Pakistan to become a developed welfare state. Khallas! Religion is people's private matter, we want to build a developed welfare state.

He must silently work on the economy of the country. This should be his main focus.

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#325 [Permalink] Posted on 7th October 2019 10:58

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I assume you have solid info about Maulana then? To make such proclamations about him as you have in the above posts?

If you do, good for you. I don't really care either way. I have my own ideas of what is wrong in the country and what should be done, and you have yours. I find your ideas to be rather too Sir Syed-esque to be able to get behind them or to even consider them as a viable solution for Pakistan and for the Ummah on the whole.

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#326 [Permalink] Posted on 7th October 2019 11:07

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There is something bigger than just military. We are not living in a capsule. We are living under a global government. We are living in a One World State. Bring a nation like the Afghans who are ready to fight the whole world for the protection of their values and only then will the situation get any better.

With a nation, civil war ends in revolution. Without a nation, civil war is chaos.

Nothing binds us.

We are linguistically, culturally, racially, ideologically (aqeeda and mazhab-wise) too diverse to be called a nation. Islam as a deen can bind us and make us a nation and a productive part of the ummah. However, without Shariah rule, this is not possible and for that we need to be a nation. So this is a loop. There is only one hope. An Islamic revolution imported from abroad. But for that we need to pay the price. RSS will be Allah's punishment for us the same way Ganghiz Khan was his punishment for the Muslimeen of those times. Revolutions only occur where there is a nation.

Nawab Sirajudaula, Tipu Sultan, 1857 war, Khilafat Movement. We failed because of many factors like lack of discipline, bad condition iman wise, lack of development and technology etc. However, one of the prominent reasons was the munafiqeen. We are not a nation hence, we have produced a large number of traitors.

Unfortunately, our leaders are not better or equal to or even 100 miles near to Shaykh ul Hind RH and iman-wise we are weaker than the muslimeen of those times.

Therefore, civil war will bring more misery instead of making things better. The majority of our ulema have already accepted democracy. They have not provided an alternative political system according to the teachings of Islam. JUI can only try to change the faces but the system will remain intact. The main culprit is not Bhutto, Bibi, Zardari, Sharfu, Nawaz or IK. The main culprit is the system. Until and unless the system is not changed, our problems are not going to be solved. And for system to change we need people like the Afghans.

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#327 [Permalink] Posted on 7th October 2019 11:13

Now I can even understand the dilemma of Muad khan :)

Sometimes he keep repeating that he is not this or that, but nobody listens.

It feels strange that even when I write about the negative aspects of Maoulana’s potential March, still I get the advise to keep ‘husne zan’ With IK...

Do I have to be in a box 📦 all the time ? Is it “You are either with us or against us” ? Does everything and everyone have to be either black or white ?

IK is not all evil, nor is Fazlur rahman. Both have good in them and both have their weaknesses. Same is everyone else including myself. Everyone can commit mistakes (real or perceived) and ‘them’ being public figures will be criticised. Same goes for praises when they do well. We are not mental slaves, we are thinking minds and we make opinions based on issues and perceptions rather than personalities.

Our opinions may be right or wrong, but why insult our intelligence by putting us in the ‘box’ of either Maulana or IK ? We are the slaves of Allah swt and the Ummati of Syedena Muhammad Rasoolullah peace be upon him. Period.

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#328 [Permalink] Posted on 7th October 2019 11:24

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And also, these wise guys must understand this that by blatantly declaring Maulana, a munafiq (I am not fond of Jamhuri Ulema - I repeat again) they are walking in dangerous waters. This is because, both Mufti Taqi Uthmani (HA) and Mufti Tariq Masaood (HA) and other senior Muftis have always supported and endorsed Maulana Fazlur Rahman.

So the next question is "Have these Muftis been bribed by the Maulana or any third party (Astaghfirullah) if we are to agree with the wise guys?"

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#329 [Permalink] Posted on 7th October 2019 11:38

fod1083 wrote:

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I assume you have solid info about Maulana then? To make such proclamations about him as you have in the above posts?

Yes.

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If you do, good for you.

Thanks.

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I don't really care either way.

There lies the rub.
If you do not care then you should protect yourself from the heart burn that any discussion inevitably generates.

And then there is this pesky problem - we can not remain nonchalant about the problems of the Ummah.

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I have my own ideas of what is wrong in the country and what should be done, and you have yours.

That sounds to be a healthy state of affairs to me.

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I find your ideas to be rather too Sir Syed-esque to be able to get behind them or to even consider them as a viable solution for Pakistan and for the Ummah on the whole.

Well there are many people in the world who are convinced that Pakistan got created by these very Sir Syed-esque ideas. If we accept that then you just proved that Pakistan is harmful for Ummah.

****

For the record, being an Aligarian, I am not anti-Sir Syed. Not by any stretch of imagination. I am very pro-Sir Syed. Though I do not agree with his theology at all.

And then I consider myself a Deobandi because in my view the Deoband explanation of Islam is the closest to the truth today.

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#330 [Permalink] Posted on 7th October 2019 11:44

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Yes I do which I have shared with Ulama of Pakistan which I will not share with you. but before we go there lets apply your own principles to your own stance.

I am assuming that you believe Imran Khan to be a "Muslim" and every Muslim needs evidence just like Maulana Fazlur-Rahman (HA) so what is your evidence of assumptions?

If you believe Imran Khan to be a "Kaafir/Jew/Qadiyani"what is your evidence?

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