Achieving Sunni Theological Unity

London

Brother

#31 [Permalink] Posted on 2nd March 2016 09:57

If we can change the dynamics of the situation then past precedent doesn't have to mean it can't be achieved in the future, and the theory and method is laid out in the article as far as I'm concerned . So there's only a problem of implementation now, but that's easier said than done.

Expecting to achieve unity through tolerance is unrealistic considering that all the groups regard eachother as deviants and in some cases even Kafir. That's why there needs to be a theological grounding for it, not just goodwill.

The secondary academic issues are referred to as 'speculative-academic' in the article and the differences between Salafis, Barelwis and Deobandis are not of this nature. Again, this has all been detailed in the article already

report post quote code quick quote reply

No post ratings

Website: islamicsciences.info
Facebook: IslamicSciences.info
Twitter: @Islamic_Uloom

Unspecified

1,410

Brother

706

#32 [Permalink] Posted on 2nd March 2016 13:35

salam

brother abu bilal i say this with love and respect as you remind me how i used to be when i was younger but you really need to open your mind and know there is more to islam than akaabir. you talk about them as if they came along and formulated the true and only form of islam so much so if rasoolullah (saw)

came back and told you to do something you will probably say no because akaabir didnt do it or say it.

your example about brazil is typical. only a deo or brealwi would ask such questions. im trying to imagine if a convert became muslim and studies islam at point if any will he ask questions like was prophet bashar or noor? unless a deo or brealwi brainwashes him.

without doubt the akaabir were amazing and not only where they giants in knowledge but also masters in tassawuf and men of Allah. hence why we are still benefitting from them but they are not and i repeat NOT infallible. deobandis talk about them same way shia talk about their 12 imams. they did what they had to for their times and circumstances. in 2016 europe there is no need for this pathetic bickering between us. everyday we are under attack, people denying Allah سبحانه وتعالى exist and as brother earlier mentioned i wont even repeat the filth they say about rasoolullah (saw)

and how shariah and islam is backward barbaric yet we still want to argue over silly side issues.

salafis brealwis and deos all agree on the basics and that Quran and sunnah is our basis. even if some of their beleives and actions may be suspect is this the time to call them out on it? if only deos showed same passion dealign with likes of richard dawkings maajdi nawaz and other islamaphobes we will be much better off.

on a side note the average brealwi is ignore and barely prays most of them never even heard of these silly arguments. why do we need to bring it up on our first conversations.

finally reason why problems still exist is not due to our differences but lack of sincerity. most of us just debate of the sake of debating. no one goes into a debate with open mind and willing to change if they lose. its all about winning and putting other group and scholars down.

report post quote code quick quote reply

+0 -0Agree x 1

mkdon101

Unspecified

1,012

Brother

466

#33 [Permalink] Posted on 2nd March 2016 15:39

Quote:

your example about brazil is typical. only a deo or brealwi would ask such questions. im trying to imagine if a convert became muslim and studies islam at point if any will he ask questions like was prophet bashar or noor? unless a deo or brealwi brainwashes him.

Similar to my situation, I had no idea what tawasul was, no do I know anyone who practices it. The first time I learnt about it was when I saw encountered salafis, and learnt that they accuse deobandis of shirk because they practice tawasul.

report post quote code quick quote reply

No post ratings

Concerned

Pakistan

196

Brother

268

#34 [Permalink] Posted on 3rd March 2016 10:45

Assalamu Alaykum,

I am afraid that my views have not been understood properly, so i will give it another try.

Brother IslamicSciences, none of the five points i wrote were directed at you. They were directed to the users here in general, and particularly towards some so called "old timers". That's why what i wrote seemed irrelevant and unnecessary to you. And neither was i expecting a response from you. And my point about people making comments without any academic background or without mutala’a was not directed at you either. Infact i wished you best of luck in my very first response to this thread. But since this topic of having sunni unity has been my prime of research for the last 14 years, hence my comments. So no need to feel offensive or condescending.

report post quote code quick quote reply

No post ratings

Abu_Bilal

Pakistan

196

Brother

268

#35 [Permalink] Posted on 3rd March 2016 11:31

Assalamu Alaykum,

Brother Concerned, your question has a long answer. I am afraid, but i don't have the energy to write long long paragraphs. Alhamdolillah, most of the answers are in my weekly Dars-e-Quran and Dars-e-Hadeeth. Maybe i will give you the recordings if you understand urdu.

My views about the ONE jamaat being on HAQ are relaxed. If a person has correct basic aqaaid like Tawheed, Risalaat and Akhirat, then Alhamdolillah he is a sunni and within Ahl-e-Sunnah Wal Jamaat. By this criteria, the moderate barelwis and the moderate salafis are also within Ahl-e-Sunnah Wal Jamaat. Infact our mashaykh have written that Ibn e Taymiya (RA) was amongst the akabireen of Ahl-e-Sunnah Wal Jamaat. However, a LOT of Ulema have said that the one jamaat on HAQ (in today's time) is the deobandi sect only. Infact many akabir ulema of deoband have also interpreted that hadeeth of one jamaat on HAQ like this. The "old timers" here, making a claim that no one has interpreted that hadeeth like this is laughable and an absolute joke.

As far as the unique features of deobandi ulema are concerned, well i will only write down one line. Deobandi movement is the only movement in the last couple of centuries, which has revived all departments of deen.

Here i would like to make one very important thing. I am mentioning this, because people have not been able to understand my point of view properly. During my study days, the hadeeth of slave girl came up. I still remember my teacher's views. And i will tell you those exactly. For a normal muslim/new muslim, a revert etc, islamic aqaaid should be kept as simple as possible. If a girl says that Allah is in the skies and Rasoolullah (SAWW) is Allah's messenger, and that is enough for her to become a muminah, then the same criteria applies to today's world too.

However, IF fitnah arises in the ummah, and wrong aqaaid are being propagated in the ummah, then IT is the DUTY of Ulema e Haq to refute the batil aqaaid and make the ummah aware about the correct Ahl-e-Sunnah Wal Jamaat aqaaid. This duty has been ordered by none other than Rasoolullah (SAWW).

So if you are fine without tawasul, ilm-e-ghaib, noor o bashar, wahdat ul wujood, etc, then THAT IS PERFECTLY FINE. And you should try to keep it AS SIMPLE as POSSIBLE. However, if you do get dragged into these discussions, then it is your obligation to LEARN the correct aqaaid and make yourself within Ahl-e-Sunnah Wal Jamaat.

report post quote code quick quote reply

+3 -0Informative x 2Creative x 1

Abu_Bilal

Pakistan

196

Brother

268

#36 [Permalink] Posted on 4th March 2016 06:36

Assalamu Alaykum,

Brother mkdon101, i also say this with the utmost respect and love, that you don't know nothing about me and my background. Alhamdolillah my mind is very open. Apart from going dars-e-nizami studies under top deobandi ulema, i have traveled extensively and met top ulema and mashaykh from all sects. I have learned a lot about tasawwuf and fiqh and hadeeth from barelwi ulema. I have benefited from salafi ulema. Infact, one of my hadeeth ijaza is from a salafi/hanbali aalim in madina munawarrah. I have even read people like Javed Ghamidi a lot, and i respect some of his opinions (and here i am going against the deobandi akabireen). Also been through a lot of material by Syed Qutub, Hasan al Bana, Dr Israr, Ml Maududi, etc. First five years of my studies were just reading and research on all schools of thoughts, and my formal education began much later. And this was in early 2000s.

I have already answered your point about subcontinent baggage and bickering between ulema on petty issues, and ignoring the bigger issues in the west, in my previous posts.

Your assumption about me being a hazrat/akaabir worshiper (so much so if Rasoolullah SAWW came back and told me to do something i will probably say no because akaabir didn't do it or say it) is a huge accusation and "buhtaan" on me. I will tell you a few examples ..

I have been harshly criticizing tableegh a lot. Recently, there has been a big explosion between a top deobandi naqshbandi shaykh and his khulafa, and i have again disagreed openly with them. And then again, there are so many fiqhi issues within the deobandi circles (like asar salah at misl e awwal, moonsighting, covering face of women, principles about tableegh/jihad, praying salah on a chair, etc) where i have disagreed. And the latest example is that of Mumtaz Qadri (RA) and i again disagree with the stance of deobandi mashaykh here. So how do you conclude, that i am of the stance that deobandi akabir are not infallible? And then comparing it with a shia and his 12 imams, is just utter non-sense brother. You (and a lot of other brothers in the west) seriously need to read a lot MORE, and shun your so called "in your face" and "straightforward" attitude. Deobandi akabireen are fallible, and have made mistakes, but compared to the rest of the ummah, yes they are the HAQ jamaat and definitely on the right path, and i am saying this after meeting several scholars from different sects and traveling a lot.

And just a last point, my audiences are people from jamat-e-islami, tanzeem-e-islami, barelwis, (even some shias), and not just hardcore deobandis. You should atleast know the background of other, before making wild assumptions.

And there are no ego issues, or debates just for the sake of winning. How many debates or munazaras with akabir ulema, HAVE YOU BEEN ACTUALLY INVOLVED IN?

report post quote code quick quote reply

+1 -0Like x 1

Abu_Bilal

London

Brother

#37 [Permalink] Posted on 4th March 2016 13:28

Abu_Bilal wrote:

View original post

Wa alaikum assalam,

Apologies for that.

Regarding what you've subsequently posted, can you please explain your position that although it's perfectly fine for a layman to not get involved and keep the simple Aqeedah (which is what we agree on alhamdulillah), he can still get involved in them if he chooses to do so? A major part of the message of the article is that they should not, and if I were a Mufti, I would most certainly give the Fatwa that it is Makruh Tahrimi. So if a layman asked you about Wahdat al-Wujood, knowing that it is not from the Dhurooriyat al-Din and that Salafis have a severe problem with it (justifiably so or otherwise), what answer would you give him?

report post quote code quick quote reply

No post ratings

Website: islamicsciences.info
Facebook: IslamicSciences.info
Twitter: @Islamic_Uloom

Pakistan

196

Brother

268

#38 [Permalink] Posted on 7th March 2016 06:10

IslamicSciences.info wrote:

View original post

Again you didn't get me correctly, brother. I did not say that laymen should get involved in aqeedah debates. However, if a layman gets "dragged" into these discussions, or if someone brainwashes him or teaches him wrong aqaaid (for whatever reasons), then the layman must consult authentic ulema and get his aqeedah within the lines of Ahl e Sunnah Wal Jamaat.

If a layman asked me about wahdat ul wajud, i would simply tell him that it is none of his business. It is not from the zarooriat e deen. He should just believe in simple tawheed, as told in Surah Ikhlaas.

report post quote code quick quote reply

No post ratings

Abu_Bilal

London

Brother

#39 [Permalink] Posted on 8th March 2016 00:26

Alhamdulillah we're almost there then, but I can't see how anyone would be dragged into these debates if they follow the methods laid out in the article and simply refuse to get involved. Can you provide a scenario where it would occur?

As far as I can see, the only time these topics would drag someone into them is if one of the groups claimed that their identifying belief was necessary, but proving this would be a tall order to say the least.

report post quote code quick quote reply

No post ratings

Website: islamicsciences.info
Facebook: IslamicSciences.info
Twitter: @Islamic_Uloom

London

27,473

Brother

9,579

#40 [Permalink] Posted on 30th March 2016 16:39

This unity is already taking place (for the better in some senses).

Today, a group of Ahle Hadith followers have won the sites of millions of viewers around the world and all they are claiming to preach is "Quran and Sunnah" Follow this and you can't go wrong, correct :)

Zakir Naik is achieving this unity and winning the the hearts of millions around the world. His TV channels hosts speakers from all parts of the world. They co-host lectures with the likes of Noman Ali Khan, Mufti Menk (both a hit with youngsters), Yusuf Estes (nice funny guy MashaAllah), Plenty of reverts from the West and qualified Shaykhs from the Middle East who lecture in plain simple English - The one thing they are gaining is unity among the Muslims and non-Muslim audiences.

I wouldn't be surprised if soon they have Ulama whom we quote from the UK joining their quest for Peace.

The Celebrity heart winners are being portrayed on International TV and so far they are doing a good job.

However, they are not indulging in Fiqh issues, just Quran, Sunnah, Seerah and Tawheed.... Once the crowd have pulled in, they will most definitely get glued to their channels and start practicing what they preach. This unity is already happening in another form.

report post quote code quick quote reply

No post ratings

Actions are judged by intentions, so each man will have what he intended.
ابو محمد

Achieving Sunni Theological Unity

Font Size

Font Weight