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Achieving Sunni Theological Unity

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#1 [Permalink] Posted on 23rd February 2016 13:26
Assalamu alaikum,

Abstract

This article seeks to establish a viable method of achieving mass theological unity upon the doctrine of Ahl al-Sunnat wa al-Jama’at amongst the major groups who assert adherence to it and yet clash with one another over aspects of its creed. It will do so by proposing that in essence, the foundational doctrines of Ahl al-Sunnat wa al-Jama’at are independent of current inter-Sunni schisms and membership to it does not depend upon affiliation to any of the prevailing Sunni factions.

This will be demonstrated by...[read the rest of this entry by following the link below]:

islamicsciences.info/on-the-dynamics-of-sunnism-in-attaining-mass-theological-cohesion/#more-67
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#2 [Permalink] Posted on 23rd February 2016 13:41
IslamicSciences.info wrote:
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The reason it can't happen is because certain people will lose power!

Those who are knowledgeable and involved in sectarianism know well that the matters of disagreement are ancillary and not primary, but seeking to work together means eating humble pie after years of mud slinging.

I can only tell you about Deobandees...Majority of Deobandi Ulama know that matters of Taqleed, Moon Sighting, Salah times and certain aspects of Barelwee positions can be Academically differed with (or at least overlooked) but it would mean going against the statements of Hazrats of the past.

Maulana Maududi (RA) and Jamaat-e-Islami stance is also the same. Most Deobanees have not evaluated where things stand in 2016 but simply translate and quote texts from decades ago.

So is the situation improving? Yes

Why? Due to 2 reasons:

1) Because life is getting uncomfortable in the West for everyone and since everyone's "Empire" is under direct threat they need to work together

2) "Salafees" after 9/11 and events of last few years have become the whipping boys for both Barelwees and Deobandees and it is something they are enjoying these days. Mainstream opinion is against "Wahabees" so lets join in and kick them while they are down.

Little do the Deobandees know that sooner or later Barelwees will turn against them in the name of "Wahabism" and then little era of co-operation will end and "Saints" will start producing statements of Hazrat warning against treachery of Barelwees....I told you so kind of stuff...

I wrote a long response to you because you seem to think that these differneces have Academic basis which I disagree with....I think they are mainly power, ego and control issues which have been hidden with the fig leaf of Academia...

If you wish to strip them of their fig leaf so they stand naked before the masses, Go ahead...
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#3 [Permalink] Posted on 23rd February 2016 16:14
السلام عليكم

I think the article doesn't really make sense.

I do not have the time to go into detail nor do I feel that the Internet is a suitable platform to explain this in detail.

The answer in short is that:

1) Undoubtedly, as stated in the article there are fundamental beliefs which the Ahlus Sunnah agree on.

2) However, to state that the fundamental doctrines are independent of the schisms is actually fundamentally incorrect.

I do agree that there are 'schisms' as you word it which are independent but Not all.

Some of the schisms either luzooman or sarahatan (althought they might not accept that it is sarahatan against our beliefs) lead back to the fundamental discussions in belief.

I could expound on this, however, the place to learn this is by the ulema in their personal company.

والله أعلم
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#4 [Permalink] Posted on 23rd February 2016 23:28
Muadh, I absolutey agree that the desire for power is one of the main causes of disunity, and this is one of the issues the article attempst to tackle. You see, all the different Sunni factions are competing for the same thing, the largest pubic following and influence. But by providing a sound theological and Shar'i baisis for the public to avoid the factions altogether (as the article attempts to do), the ability of those who propogate undue sectarian division is severly weakened if not eradictated altogether. They key lies in empowering the public with the knowledge that the issues of sectarian division are completey unneccesary (not just tolerable as you mentioned but comepletely unneccesary) and consequently, affiliating with any Sunni sect, be it Barelwism, Deobandism or Salafism is completely avoidable. So contrary to KeepTheGazeDown, I believe the public arena is exactly the right place to have this discussion.

In other words KeepTheGazeDown, it is entirely possible to be 'just Sunni' and this is what I meant when I wrote that the fundamental beliefs of Ahl al-Sunnah are independent of current inter-Sunni differneces. I don't disagree that controversial issues can violate the fundamental doctrines of Ahl al-Sunnah. My point is, they only become an issue once someone chooses to adopt them, i.e. he affiliates himself to one of the Sunni groups. If however he completely avoids them to begin with (which is perfectly possible, as I argue in the article), they will never have a bearing on the fundamental beliefs, and this is the basis for achieving Sunni theological unity, in sha Allah.
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#5 [Permalink] Posted on 24th February 2016 01:43
I feel that the post I wrote initially should be read properly.

There are issues between us and salafis or barelwis for example which may not lead back to the fundamental beliefs.

However, a person with sound academic knowledge of aqeedah and not just confining onselef to know books taught in the aalim course would know that the issues are not the way you have put it.

We have differences with hardcore salafis for example which lead back to fundamental principles. To deny this is not accepting something which is obvious.

Such differences are not for Internet forums but we need to understand that academically that article did not make sense. In short there might be differences which may not lead to fundamental differences but to deny that there are a number of points leading to fundamental differences is flawed.

Also the mutakallimin of today in the Arab world for example accept that the differences lead back fundamental differences. These are knowledgeable ulema who know tge depth of the argument.
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#6 [Permalink] Posted on 24th February 2016 23:14
I undertand what you're saying and if you read my article and my previous post, you'll find that I've mentioned the very point you've raised about certain issues of difference affecting the f u n d a m e n t a l beliefs, and I agree with it. But I reiterate that you are presenting a straw man here. Perhaps an example will clarify what I'm trying to say

Deobandis and Barelwis differ on whether Nabi (saw) was noor or not. Deobandis say this belief violates the essential theology of Ahl al-Sunnah (specifically that Nabi [saw] was a human being) and Barelwis of course argue that it doesn't. However, to the best of my knowledge, despite the fact that Barelwis deem it to be correct, they do not regard it as an essential and fundamental point of creed, such that if a person is not aware of it or chooses not to adopt it, he will not be excommunicated from Ahl al-Sunnah. In this sense, this issue of difference is independent of the fundamental ideology of Ahl al-Sunnah. Meaning, a person may not believe in it and he will still be regarded as a fully fledged member of Ahl al-Sunnah by both sides of the argument. Now my point is, if the public and all but the Aqeedah specialist Scholars refrain from believing that Nabi (saw) was noor, the Deobandis of course will be content but so must the Barelwis be (because even to them, it is not a fundamental belief to begin with and therefore not required by necessity). This will therefore unite the masses upon one belief on this issue and the same strategy can be adopted for the majority if not all the issues of difference between the Sunni factions, whether it be on the interpretation of Sifat of Allah, Hazir-Nazir, Ilm al-Ghaib, etc.

However, if a person does decide to accept this belief of Nabi (saw) being Noor, now this may have a bearing on his being Sunni (depending on whether one agrees with the Deobandis or Barelwis) as you pointed out, but if he totally aviods it to begin with, he cannot be reproached by either side and he will not be violating any essential point of creed according to both Deobandis and Barelwis. This I believe can form the basis for theological unity and I hope I have clarified that I am not differing with your point.
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#7 [Permalink] Posted on 25th February 2016 02:31
I agree with your first paragraph since you state that certain arguments do not lead to fundamental beliefs. However, how you still insist that this same method be used in other issues.

I find barelwi arguments to be very unstable hence I will use a salafi argument.

In this issue of حوادث لا أول لها:

There is no middle ground whatsoever. How can that argument be used here?

Remember the above is not the only argument which does not have middle ground.

Some people have tried to do what you mentioned I.e. To do taqreeb between these groups and failed miserably in aqeedah. In furu it may be posdible but in aqeedah it cannot be.

The reason for this in the batil groups is because we differ with them from the base I.e وسائل المعرفة for example Ibn Taymiyyahs view on وجود. We can never accept his view on وجود nor can we have middle ground and that leads to several other differences.

Brother, normally I would not comment on this, however, in my opinion the article can mislead alot of awaam into thinking that our shisms between these groups may have middle ground but in reality it is not the case in all issues.

Therefore your statement "This will therefore unite the masses upon one belief on this issue and the same strategy can be adopted for the majority if not all the issues of difference between the Sunni factions, whether it be on the interpretation of Sifat of Allah, Hazir-Nazir, Ilm al-Ghaib, etc." is severely misleading.

There are beliefs although not all between us and these batil groups which would render them out of the fold of the ahlussunnah if taken on the apparent.

Unity would be perfect but not on something which is essentially flawed.

I am not promoting hatred but I am stating that we should not try to simplify something which is not simple.

Now let me put forward an example of where your argument would make sense. Between the أشاعرة and ماتريدية, basically all the ikhtilafat do not lead to fundamental beliefs. The ikhtilaf may be due to a slight difference in اصطلاح for example. However, this same cannot be applied to hardcore salafis for example.

I hope you really ponder agaim over your article. I intend not replying again on this issue unless you put forward some valid points.

والله أعلم
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#8 [Permalink] Posted on 25th February 2016 04:44
IslamicSciences.info wrote:
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Assalamu Alaykum,

You have good intent mashaAllah, and may Allah help you. I have been also involved in this aqeeda battle, and trying to find a middle ground for all Ahl e Sunnah factions, and the akabireen of Darul Uloom Karachi have also reached a middle ground. Make Allah accept all these efforts, ameen.

However, i still see some issues in all this. For example, you can't just leave the issue of Noor/bashar in a middle, with no clear aqeeda about it. Hazrat Maulana Sarfraz Khan Safdar (RA) gave a reference (i think it was fataawa e tataarkhania? not sure), that if a person was asked whether Rasoolullah (SAW) was noor or bashar? and he said that he doesn't know, then he is a kafir. So one has to have a clear aqeeda.

Another thing is that, there are some moderate barelwis, who are close to deobandis. Like Pir Karam Shah, Pir Mehr Ali Shah, Allama Ghulam Rasul Sayyedi, etc. However the extreme barelwis (and i consider Ahmad Raza Barelwi to be an extreme one, as he was the pioneer of them) have clear and explicit shirk related aqaaid, and it would be hard to find a middle ground.

May Allah help you in your endeavours, and if you are in the UK, then you should also put your writings infront of Allama Khalid Mehmood (DB), as hazrat is a master of this field.
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#9 [Permalink] Posted on 25th February 2016 12:10

Lets be real and not kid ourselves...consider the following 2 scenarios:

  1. The mud slinging and hate between Deobandees & Barelwees for the last 150+ years won't go away via Academic discourse...There is GENUINE HATRED of each other in their mud-slinging (I have read both sides) not all [of course].
  2. You don't need to resolve differences in order to work together and Allah (SWT) tells us that

In any case keep this out of the West because apart from (minority) die-hard Deobandees/Barelwees 90% Muslims don't know and don't care!

All Praise be to Allah (SWT) for that

 

 

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#10 [Permalink] Posted on 25th February 2016 23:58
KeepTheGazeDown, again, your’re bringing up a staw man here and I don’t think you’ve understood my article, so I’ll suffice with answering your question about Ibn Taymiyyah’s belief of حوادث لا أول لها and how it would be dealt with under my proposal; and If this doesn’t clarify things, then khayr, we’ll just leave it at that.

The first thing I would say is that IT’s belief here is not from the Dhurooriyat al-Deen even according to him, so there is no need for anyone to get involved in it in the first place. If someone does decide to follow IT in this issue, then it would lead back to the fundamental Aqeedah of Ahl al-Sunnah (and I have clearly mentioned this principle on numerous occasions now), so the basis for unity would be to abstain from it altogether. This way, neither those who oppose this belief and nor IT would be able lay any blame, i.e. unity.

People have tried and failed to end sectarianism by proposing a method that is both theologically and practically unrealistic, i.e. everyone just tolerate eachother’s beliefs and learn to work together despite strong disagreements (as was made apparent during the fairly recent unity tour of Mufti Rafi sb and Iqra TV). My solution is very different and I believe, nuanced. Again, refer to my article.

I also believe that the solution is very simple and the problem is over complicated because all sense of perspective and objectivity have been lost due to the decades (and some cases centuries) of bickering and hate.

Abu Bilal, if a layman was asked whether Nabi (saw) was noor or bashar, I would advise him to ask the questioner, ‘Is the belief that he (saw) is noor from the Dhurooriyaat al-Deen?’ and the answer would be, ‘No it is not’. so in that case the layman would say, ‘Then I have no need for it and I will suffice with only that which is established by necessity, i.e. that he (saw) was bashar.’ With this response, the questioner cannot reproach him in any way and his Aqeedah would remain safe. So remaining silent or saying ‘I don’t know’ never comes into it.

As for your suggestion concerning Allamah Khalid Mahmood sb, then you may be surprised to know that the interest that I have in ending sectarianism and achieving theological unity stems from personally meeting, spending time with and doing khidmah of Allamah sb. In fact, it would be fair to say that he played a large role in changing my outlook on many issues, sectarianism being one of them. The only other article on my website at the moment is a translation of a few pages from one of Allamah sb’s books and this should indicate the esteem to which I hold him.

Muadh, I agree with your first point to an extent but I reiterate that solving this problem is very much in the hands of the public, not Deobandis, Barelwis or Salafis themselves. If the public simply stop responding to their calls to arms, there will be no fuel to light the fire, but this requires a theological justification because each of these groups deceives the public into thinking that they must belong to their particular sect, or they will end up in Hell. There is simply no basis for this and the public need to be informed of the Shar’i reality of these ikhtilaafaat.

About your second point, most do not care (as you mentioned) but that’s because they’re not practising. But what happens the moment someone takes an interest in learning the Deen? Salafis pull them to themselves, Deobandis to themselves and Barelwis likewise to themselves, and the sectarianism continues. What does this person do? They either get involved with one of the groups (and thereby become part of the problem) or they become despondent and end up doing their own thing (which is equally as dangerous). There needs to be a way out of both of these outcomes and I believe my method at least in theory provides it, in sha Allah
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#11 [Permalink] Posted on 26th February 2016 00:09
(bism1)

Nice effort...I dont see it bearing much fruit maybe not even in our lifetime, but perhaps the seeds you are trying to plant will bear fruit many years later In Sha Allah, May ALLAH instill barakah in your efforts ameen.

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#12 [Permalink] Posted on 26th February 2016 00:31
Abdur Rahman ibn Awf wrote:
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Unfortunately you're right (lol). But I suppose we all have to start somewhere. Having had my proposal checked by a number of Ulema (including a well known Aqeedah specialist), I feel somewhat content that the concept is valid in sha Allah, but the biggest obstacle lies in trying to produce a 'paradigm shift' in how these issues are understood by both the public and the Ulema and practically implementing it, and this will be something I'm sure will keep me thinking.

May Allah accept all our efforts. Ameen
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#13 [Permalink] Posted on 26th February 2016 02:04
IslamicSciences.info wrote:
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Ameen...!

True just because situation seems pointless and there are lot of obstacles at the moment does not mean we should not make any effort..In the words of an ancient proverb “Society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in.”

Perhaps that "Paradigm shift" will happen in a generation or two and ALLAH knows best, what seems impossible today may by the Grace of ALLAH become possible tomorrow....!

Ultimately its the Effort that counts. A few years ago an elderly relative of mine decided to attend tajweed lessons try as she might she could not make any progress at all..She was about to stop attending until her Ustadha explained to her, sincerity and effort carry their own reward, whether you are able to master tajweed or not keep attending and keep making effort that is reward enough in itself, because ALLAH is Al KAREEM he is the most generous and effort never goes unrewarded in his court.

May ALLAH grant us sincerity, and the tawfeeq to keep making effort for his sake and not become despondent especially when circumstances seem impossible, and even more so when everyone is telling us our efforts are pointless ameen.





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#14 [Permalink] Posted on 26th February 2016 10:23

IslamicSciences.info wrote:
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A person doesn't need to be either a Deoandi or a Barelwee to practise Islam, that's a fallacy to begin with. Muslims all over the world (and India) practised Islam just fine before 1866.

These groups came about due to peculiar circumstances and local situation and from there they got entrenched in their own rhetoric.

In the West we don't need to educate any Muslim (born or Revert) to this ideology nor do we need them to take sides.

In fact we simply need to tell them to make Dua for all of those who made sincere effort for the Deen of Allah Ta'ala and forgive the sins of those who errored. The problem will NOT go away any other way (in the West).

In the East (India/Pakistan) they have vested interests and they have to back their teachers, their institutes etc. If (Mufti) openly started picking faults with Deobandees he will be labelled a heretic and will land with a Fatwa so he has NO CHOICE but to tow the line. Similar is the case of a Barelwee.

I was born and raised in Pakistan, speak, read and write fluent Urdu and I have read books from both sides, my objection is to bring this (baggage) into the West as there is no need. Your typical (young) Muslim neither has the need nor should his (or her) life be complicated with this baggage at all. Nauman Ali Khan, Mufti Menk etc are all managing just fine without bringing Deobandi/Barelwee into the fray or talking about it.

It is the Deobandees & Barelwees who are obsessed with this issue! They seem to think that progress cannot be made without addressing these matters (imported from the East).

May Allah (SWT) reward you for your intentions but you are already displeasing Deobandees here and I am sure you will be displease Barelwees on the other side. Reason being is that these people have loyalties to their Hazrats.

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#15 [Permalink] Posted on 26th February 2016 10:31
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I find it very interesting brother what you wrote. ALLAH SWT bless you with your endevour. Please continue posting on the forum and sharing your thoughts
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