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#31 [Permalink] Posted on 3rd February 2016 21:32
Concerned wrote:
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Interesting. Let's say some capabale ulama did decide to tackle all those points raised by Abu Esa. The chances of all the ulama doing ijtihad on these issues coming to the same conclusion is almost 0. So some may start adopting halloween, christmas or other things based on their ijtihad. Then the domino affect comes into play. It won't be just halloween, but many other things wil also be participated in. Hence the more important question I would like to ask is Where will it end?
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#32 [Permalink] Posted on 3rd February 2016 23:49
Ryder wrote:
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Well I havent 'researched ' the issue, which is why I am confused. I am merely observing what many respected ulama are promoting and being a part of. From what I understand , Shaikh AkrAm Nadwi is trying to prove that the kind of restrictions we have on women's issues today is actually against the sunnah, so he is actually calling towards what he sees as the real sunnah.

Also different people would have different definitions of Segregation. I don't think those ulama say they are promoting free mixing. Free mixing would also have to be defined. I wouldn't agree with ignoring the segregation found in the sunnah in order to create an environment to conform with cultural norms. I wasn't aware that was the intention of the scholars I mentioned. Not denying that there are other scholars who are pushing that agenda.

Regarding sticking to one madhab in its entirety at all times and believing it to be the only way and that one has to be restricted to one madhab at all times, I have gone passed that and I know longer believe that to be correct. Maulana Taha Karan explains this very well in some of his lectures,and it seems to be the common view amongst the Shafis. So even if we view taaqleed in a certain way as hanafis, the shafis view it differently, so why should shafis and others be forced to follow a certain view of taaqleed?
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#33 [Permalink] Posted on 4th February 2016 00:33
Another female related issue is having women on masjid committes or as president of student bodies. One of the arguments used is that women are only discouraged from leadership of a country, and they are not prevented from holding other leadership positions.

Now one may ask why do people not follow their Ulama or madhab on this issue. Well maybe because the same Ulama have demonstrated that according to the madhab , women are prohibited from ever stepping foot into the masjid, whether for a lecture, or to pray if necessary, or to pray if you are a traveller etc.
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#34 [Permalink] Posted on 4th February 2016 08:26
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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And yet these are the same people prohibiting mawlid? Seems like a blatant contradiction to me.

I think, even before anyone answers those questions by abu esa, the question to be asked is Why would Muslims celebrate halloween. And if some mufti does decide to look so deep into halloween and answer all those questions by Au esa (which I don't think anyone will unless Rand are involved), and come to the conclusion that we can celebrate or partake in halloween, then the domino law effect states that it is only a matter of time before Muslims will be partaking in Christmas, Valentines, Easter, April Fools etc.

Is that the image of Islam and Muslims? Is that how we will be taking the message of Islam to humanity?
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#35 [Permalink] Posted on 4th February 2016 08:28
Ryder wrote:
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Brother,

I have no capabilities and no Authority but in my little way I (and others) have been highlighting the dangers of perpetual support for "Traditionalists" by our Ulama against the Salafees.

What you see today is the result of strategist decisions of our Ulama. Our own Ulama as a result are changing on Christmas, Mawlid, Khatam and all sorts of issues.

I (personally) didn't come to follow Deobandees because they were merely "Pink Barelwees"....unfortunately in UK that's exactly what they have become!
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#36 [Permalink] Posted on 4th February 2016 08:57
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To be honest, I would not consider simply observing controversial ulama like Shaykh Akram Nadwi as the best way of learning. And for someone who has been in the public eye for such a short time, he is certainly controversial, with sites dedicated to highlighting his errors, and people pointing out his mistakes on various blog and forum posts.

And funnily enough, it is only a handful of these controversial scholars, mainly in the west, that are actually trying to eleminate gender segegration. Yes, there are extreme restrictions applied to women by some, which should not be there, but people Like Dr akram nadwi are simply the other side of the coin, promoting the other extreme.

Of course no one is claiming they are promoting free mixing, that would be daft. And no one is questioniong intentions either, just errors from well established norms and principles. When you research the issue there are many sources to show that segegration is indeed from the sunnah, in the way it is largely practiced in the Muslim world, and it is actually the western anti segegrators that have made the mistake and indeed have created what seems to be nothing more than a reprehensible bida.

However, it seems to me, that is not the main issue causing your confusion.

The main issue is obviously that you have decided to become a somewhat of a ghayr Muqallid. Such confusion is only natural for a ghayr muqalid.

Whilst I agree that one madhab cannot be followed in absolutley every instance, and there are instances where there are differences within the madhab, the thing is, only an alim at a certain level can decide when to diverge from the madhab, not normal people or normal maulanas.

As for your statement that Shafis have a different view of what is taqleed, I disagree. It is very similar to the hanafis, with maybe very minor differences. Sheikh Nuh Keller, a shafi in Jordan, surrounded by many Shafis, was at the forefront of the ghayr muqallid Movement about 15 years ago. He heavily promoted following a madhab.

As for the shafis you are talking about, if they are not sticking to the madhab, then are they actually shafis?

Let's assume for a moment that you are correct and the shafis are not as strict on taqleed, then if you were a hanafi, what gave you the right to abandon the hanafi opinion on taqleed and adopt the shafi opinion? Would these shafis you are talking about condone that?

Also, with you specifically, now that you think you "have gone past "that"", what are your current principles for which opinon to adopt? How do you decide I will stick to the hanfis in this or the shafis in that or the malikis in this, or a modernist in this, or a feminist in that.

There is a lot of circular reasoning that goes on when you decide to stop following a madhab. And these things have been debated into the ground. These are long winded discussions, and if you want to really highlight them, i suggest you start another thread as in this thread I want to specifically talk about how rulings are being made subjective to culture at an unprecidented level.

Also, I don't want to sound rude, but can I ask are you actually a brother, or is your profile status simply a a mistake you forgot to change?
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#37 [Permalink] Posted on 4th February 2016 09:10
Concerned wrote:
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Just like people are making all rulings subjective to the usool of culture now, how about making all rulings subjective to the usool of analogy? Women are not allowed to rule a country, women cannot be the head of a household hence women can't be in leading roles in organisations.

Can be done, but wouldn't be right. That is the same problem I have with the culture issues that are becoming apparent.

And I have yet to find ulama that say women can't step inside the masjid. I think you perhaps got a bit over emotional in your response and did not actually mean that. Yes there are restrictions, and why shouldn't there be?

I have gone to a deobandee masjid whilst travelling with my sister. There was no prayer area available for women, and we were getting late for maghrib. One of the people there told me I can go in and pray. I asked him where can my sister pray, he told me there is no womens area, but he said she can go into a side room. She had to do wudhu, so she went into the mens wudhu area, whilst I stood guard to make sure no men came in. then She went into the side room and prayed, and I went into the main hall and prayed. No problems, alhamdulliillah..

Of course If I approached him and started waffling on like, "what! No womens area! Where are womens rights, where is womens empowerment, and why is there no woman on the committe" he might have given me a funny stare and told me to go on my way. I wouldn't have blamed him.

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#38 [Permalink] Posted on 4th February 2016 09:13
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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I know you are mashAllah. Don't worry I have come to similar conclusions as you. I wasn't saying anything against you, just making a comment.
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#39 [Permalink] Posted on 4th February 2016 10:28
Quote:
To be honest, I would not consider simply observing controversial ulama like Shaykh Akram Nadwi as the best way of learning. And for someone who has been in the public eye for such a short time, he is certainly controversial, with sites dedicated to highlighting his errors, and people pointing out his mistakes on various blog and forum posts. [/quote]

I did not say this is the way I was learning, I was just sharing my observations, and what is currently being promoted is different to what I and many others were taught. Anyways there is no need for me to carry on on this topic as I was not arguing in anyone's favor.

Quote:
And funnily enough, it is only a handful of these controversial scholars, mainly in the west, that are actually trying to eleminate gender segegration. Yes, there are extreme restrictions applied to women by some, which should not be there, but people Like Dr akram nadwi are simply the other side of the coin, promoting the other extreme.[/quote]

You said no one is promoting free mixing, but yet you are saying they want to eliminate segregation. Even though there may only be a handful of ulama who are at the forefront of promoting certain views, the issue becomes more complicated when you see ulama from various backgrounds including Deobandi, participate and promote events which do not conform to what I and others were taught when it comes to women issues. Take for example having female speakers at events.

Quote:
Of course no one is claiming they are promoting free mixing, that would be daft. [/quote]

SO eliminating gender segregation if not free mixing? That's why I said different people have different definitions of these terms.


Quote:
The main issue is obviously that you have decided to become a somewhat of a ghayr Muqallid. Such confusion is only natural for a ghayr muqalid. [/quote]

So not believing that it is compulsory to follow one madhab at all times automatically means you become a ghayr muqalid?


Quote:
Whilst I agree that one madhab cannot be followed in absolutley every instance, and there are instances where there are differences within the madhab, the thing is, only an alim at a certain level can decide when to diverge from the madhab, not normal people or normal maulanas. As for your statement that Shafis have a different view of what is taqleed, I disagree. It is very similar to the hanafis, with maybe very minor differences. Sheikh Nuh Keller, a shafi in Jordan, surrounded by many Shafis, was at the forefront of the ghayr muqallid Movement about 15 years ago. He heavily promoted following a madhab. As for the shafis you are talking about, if they are not sticking to the madhab, then are they actually shafis?


I don't know much about Shaikh Nuh's views, but I never said that the shafi view is the same as 'ghayr muqallid', In any case the term ghayr muqalid would also have to be defined.

Is Imam Nawawi Shafi enough for you? He says that a person who is not even qualified to do ijtihad in regards to one particular topic can leave the madhab and follow a hadith, provided that another Imam acted on that hadith.


[quote]Let's assume for a moment that you are correct and the shafis are not as strict on taqleed, then if you were a hanafi, what gave you the right to abandon the hanafi opinion on taqleed and adopt the shafi opinion? Would these shafis you are talking about condone that?

The shafis as well as other hanafis already condone following another madhab in different issues with some conditions ( not those conditions that make it impossible). Also brother Islam is bigger than the madhabs. Who gave you the right to say that I must do taqleed of the rules of taqleed as determined by some scholars?

[quote]Also, with you specifically, now that you think you "have gone past "that"", what are your current principles for which opinon to adopt? How do you decide I will stick to the hanfis in this or the shafis in that or the malikis in this, or a modernist in this, or a feminist in that.


How did modernist and feminist get into this?

[quote]There is a lot of circular reasoning that goes on when you decide to stop following a madhab. And these things have been debated into the ground. These are long winded discussions, and if you want to really highlight them, i suggest you start another thread as in this thread I want to specifically talk about how rulings are being made subjective to culture at an unprecidented level.


Fair enough, but there is enough information out there and I suggest you do some research. You can start by listening to Maulana Taha Karans lectures and writings on taqleed and differences of opinions.

[quote]Also, I don't want to sound rude, but can I ask are you actually a brother, or is your profile status simply a a mistake you forgot to change?


I am a brother. Why would you ask such a question?
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#40 [Permalink] Posted on 4th February 2016 10:35

M[QUOTE=Ryder] Whilst I agree that one madhab cannot be followed in absolutley every instance, and there are instances where there are differences within the madhab, the thing is, only an alim at a certain level can decide when to diverge from the madhab, not normal people or normal maulanas.

As for your statement that Shafis have a different view of what is taqleed, I disagree. It is very similar to the hanafis, with maybe very minor differences. Sheikh Nuh Keller, a shafi in Jordan, surrounded by many Shafis, was at the forefront of the ghayr muqallid Movement about 15 years ago. He heavily promoted following a madhab.[/Quote]

I would have to respectfully disagree with you there about Shaf'ae Madhab. Sheikh Nuh Keller advocates following a Madhab but I don't think that he advocates Taqleed Shaksi which is most certainly not the position of Shaf'ae Madhab.

Mufti Taha Karaan (HA) is right on the money with regards to Shaf'ae Madhab.

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#41 [Permalink] Posted on 4th February 2016 10:50
Quote:
And I have yet to find ulama that say women can't step inside the masjid. I think you perhaps got a bit over emotional in your response and did not actually mean that. Yes there are restrictions, and why shouldn't there be?
[/quote]

This is practically what they say. Some examples :

A South African Mufti told me its prohibited for women to come to the Masjid. Just a blanket prohibition.

Knowledgeable people have told me that there is no need to accommodate women in the Masjid if they need to pray, they can pray on the streets just as a man does when he is out and is far from the Masjd.

Masjids are rebuilt and a room is not put in place for sisters to pray in case of necessity.

If such a room is provided in a new Masjid, it is disconnected from the main pray area, and it is impossible for the handful of ladies who can fit in the room to follow the Imam. They have made it haram for women to pray behind in Jamat. Interestingly enough , Mufti Abdur Rahman Mangera clearly states that if a women is already out of the house, it is superior for here to join the jamat than to pray alone! Also since the room for the sisters is so small , practically it has become haram for women to come to the Masjid to listen to lectures or take classes.

Week after week female travelers are told that while their husband prays Jumuah, they have to either sit in the car or find a Muslim house on the street where they can sit and wait until Jumuah is finished.



Need I say more?

[quote]
Of course If I approached him and started waffling on like, "what! No womens area! Where are womens rights, where is womens empowerment, and why is there no woman on the committe" he might have given me a funny stare and told me to go on my way. I wouldn't have blamed him.


Why do you equate the basic right of having a place to pray with women's empowerment and women being on the committee? In fact if you bring up all of that when simply demanding for a place to pray even I would stare at you funny.

That's it for me on the women's issues, you can continue with the other issues relating to this topic.
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#42 [Permalink] Posted on 4th February 2016 10:54
I will avoid getting into the taqleed debate, as I am not aware of what mawlana Taha Karan is saying, although I will certainly be listening soon inshAllah, and also, becasue it is a very big topic with various branches. I would be suprised however if shaikh Nuh is not promoting taqleed shaksi.

Anyway, the purpose of this thread was not about taqleed, it was for me to clarify that there are now people making rulings subjective to culture in the west at an unprecedented level and it's taking a turn for the worse, causing further problems and confusion. Am I correct in assuming that you guys acknowledge this problem does exist and is getting worse?

I will however clarify this point

Quote:
SO eliminating gender segregation if not free mixing? That's why I said different people have different definitions of these terms.


What I meant was that these ulama who are eliminating segegration in the manner done across the muslim world for centuries are not openly going to say "we are promoting free mixing". Of course they are not going to say that.

And as for asking whether you are a sister, it's becasue you sounded almost exaclty like someone I know in a couple of instances. I actually started to think that you were perhaps her. Never mind lol.

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#43 [Permalink] Posted on 4th February 2016 11:04
Concerned wrote:
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Of course, if that is what you have experienced then I disagree with those people not allowing women into the masjid at all. But that has not been my experience. I do believe there should be a reasonable place for women in the masjid, but there should be some sort of barrier seperating the women if they are also in the main hall.

At the time of the Prophet,(s.a.w.), the women that were praying behind without a barrier were usually in at times of Isha and fajr when it would have been dark (no lights in those days), or with a candle which would have been minimal light, and they used to leave from a side entrance, before the men turned around. Now that is impractical, so obviously a barrier should be in place as a minimum.

Quote:
Why do you equate the basic right of having a place to pray with women's empowerment and women being on the committee? In fact if you bring up all of that when simply demanding for a place to pray even I would stare at you funny.


That was not directed at you, as previously stated I mistakenly thought you were someone else who is into all this womens empowerment and feminism business to a somewhat extreme level.
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#44 [Permalink] Posted on 4th February 2016 11:06
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I would be suprised however if shaikh Nuh is not promoting taqleed shaksi.
[/quote]
I don't know about Shaikh Nuh, but after you see just how the Shafis view taqleed, I put it to you that your whole outlook on different issues will change. I even dare you to read everything that Harris Hammam has written on this topic : ).

[quote] Am I correct in assuming that you guys acknowledge this problem does exist and is getting worse?


I acknowledge there is a problem, I am just cautious as to branding everything different as part of the problem.

I do not live in USA, but I find it strange when they have to draw Islamic lessons from Harry Potter. ,I also find it strange when they settle for the lesser of two evils in certain issues, saying that its impossible to completely keep the children away from those issues. But as I said I do not live in USA so, for example, Halloween can come and go and children in my country would not be bothered, as even though it is promoted , it is not mainstream.
I will however clarify this point
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#45 [Permalink] Posted on 4th February 2016 11:07

Ryder wrote:
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I second your concerns on segregation. Whether Shaykh Akram Nadwi (HA) and the likes are promoting free-mixing or not and Allah (SWT) knows best, but the nest results of their stance is de-segregation and free-mixing.

Many of us came to Islam during our college/university days and not through a Madrasah. It wasn't perfect but there was some desire for many prople to follow the Sunnah.

Segregation is already dead on campuses across UK and cannot be forced. In the next 10 years the present crop will be leading our Mosques and there will be an army of young (men and women) who will have practically no experience of segregation and they will deem free-mixing to be the norm!

Dangerous...

 

 

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