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Sheikh Wasiullah Abbas confirms Mufti Menk is not a Salafi, but Hanafi

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#121 [Permalink] Posted on 6th July 2017 14:44
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1) Ali brought u prawns not me.


He mentioned see food then later mentioned squid. I assume he eats Prawns lovingly :)
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#122 [Permalink] Posted on 6th July 2017 14:48
SunniSeeker wrote:
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Brother read all of the pages 5 times slowly, and then honestly say that your post is an honest representation of the entire discussion by Shah Waliullah.
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#123 [Permalink] Posted on 6th July 2017 14:48
abu mohammed wrote:
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Yes sorry, it was his post which made me mention shrimps or prawns.
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#124 [Permalink] Posted on 6th July 2017 14:58

IslamicSciences.info wrote:
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The discussion is taking place within the context of Deobandi UIlama which “concerned” is eager to bash over the head so let’s discuss it in that conext

ia802501.us.archive.org/13/items/TheLegalStatusOfFollowin...

Pages 13 & 14 does indeed give the text book definition as you have stated.

https://ia802501.us.archive.org/13/items/TheLegalStatusOfFollowingAMadhab/TheLegalStatusOfFollowingAMadhab.pdf

Pages 76 (onwards) then focus on what is meant by Taqleed (Shaksi) of the masses. This person has done his research, ascertained his (or her) choices and he or she is now locked to the Scholar.

In the case of Taqleed Mutlaq the “release from the lock” is making the laymen susceptible to the likes of “Mufti” Abu-Layth etc.

If the person is able to distinguish between stronger vs weaker opinions OR differences of Madhahib, he (or she) isn’t a laymen in the context of that definition.

It is the Istihsaan of the Deobandi Ulama that lock DOES NOT release with every Mas’ala and laymen should not be put into the danger of seeking another Scholar on each occasion.

Concerned wrote:
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Keep conjuring one hypothetical examples and keep planning for failures. What the Scholars are doing are taking a holistic view and looking to protect the Eemaan of the Masses. Majority of Muslims are not Reverts in remote parts of the world surrounded by deviant (Scholars) bent on misleading them deliberately.

This is the whole issue with your (conjured up) scenarios as due to your deceptive nature and negativity you focus on it and insist on others to see it.

I was speaking to a brother yesterday and did you know that in Islam there is no HMRC (for Zakah)..Implications?

I will pay my Zakah and the Zakah collector will take it on face value that my situation is with Allah Ta’ala.

A brother does his research and asks and gets referred to a Scholar. The scholar is a deviant and misleads him, the matter is with Allah Ta’ala.

With Taqleed Mutlaq, the chances of this occurring are more so. Therefore based on Istihsaan, the Ulama of Deoband (taking a holistic view of the society) have deemed Taqleed Shaksi to be safer while holding the view that Taqleed Mutlaq is permissible.

Does Taqleed Shaksi work in every scenario and is it suitable to every (hypothetical) case? Of course not!

But it is safer for laymen and the fact that people like you have access to hordes of information (not knowledge) is a living proof that Taqleed Shaksi in our time is Waajb.

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#125 [Permalink] Posted on 6th July 2017 15:02
Concerned wrote:
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The quote represents Shah Waliullah's acknowledgement of the preferred opinion among jurists in GENERAL.

Which is against your insinuation that this is something of a recent phenomenon peculiar to only deobandi ulema.
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#126 [Permalink] Posted on 6th July 2017 15:08

SunniSeeker wrote:
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His desperation to appear "intelligent" and to show that he actually has a point!

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#127 [Permalink] Posted on 6th July 2017 15:10
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Which is against your insinuation that this is something of a recent phenomenon peculiar to only deobandi ulema.


I never meant to say that. I always acknowledge that the view held by the deobandi existed and it is fine if someone wants to act on it. My problem is1) saying that it is wajib for every Muslim to practice taqleed shaksi, and 2) ignoring the fact that ulama from all 4 madhabs, both contemporary and earlier ones, disagree that taqleed shaksi is necessary.


There are many issues , here , that quote from shah was only regarding those who adopt a madhab, remember there is also the view that a person does not need to adopt a madhab. And Shah Also discusses the quote in the following page, and his conclusion sums it up for me.
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#128 [Permalink] Posted on 6th July 2017 15:12

Concerned wrote:
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Your problem? :P

And you are someone who makes errors upon errors, doesn’t understand basic legal terms as limited vocabulary and research and importantly lacks intellectual depth.

We take your objections OVER the Istihasaan of Mufti Taqi Usmani (HA)? :lol

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#129 [Permalink] Posted on 6th July 2017 15:20
Yes mufti taqi uthmani d.b. is the final proof against all of the other ulama from all 4 madhabs. Whatever makes you happy.
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#130 [Permalink] Posted on 6th July 2017 15:26

Concerned wrote:
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Another digression and even that won’t save you.

I am talking about YOU having a problem with Mufti Taqi Usmani (HA)'s opinion because Ulama of 4 Madhabs (and all of them) as you put it, don't!

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#131 [Permalink] Posted on 6th July 2017 15:34
abu mohammed wrote:
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Brother Concern, did you accidently miss this post?
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#132 [Permalink] Posted on 6th July 2017 15:47
SunniSeeker wrote:
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"A common person who took masail from Imam Abu Hanifa would probably stick to that and likewise with regards to Sufyan ath-Thawri etc."

Not true. Even Mufti Taqi sb said this was not how things were in the early generations (refer to his book on Taqlid).

"This is even the case today for the majority of people. Most people won't know what TM or TS is and whenever they have an issue that needs solving they would most likely go their local imam and that would be the end of the matter. It so happens that in the Subcontinent pretty much everyone's local imam is a hanafi and likewise in West Africa they are mostly maliki - so whether the common person knows it or not they would be following those schools exclusively. "

What about in mixed societies like the West, Egypt or (once upon a time) Syria? Many people just ask any (reliable) scholar they come across and have no idea about TS. Just watch the Q&A programs on the Islamic TV channels for instance.

" they wouldn't give several options and say do whichever you feel is easy for you or say 'oh by the way, the hanbali school allows this instead etc. etc.' "

Again not true. If a scholar believes several answers are equally possible, they can present all of them to the questioner and let them choose. See what Ibn Humam says about this. Even Ml Thanwi and Mufti Shafi once offered options to a questioner and said take which ever opinion you wish.

"But clearly TS is more cohesive, safer and easier for the layman"

I would beg to differ

"The common person has enough issues learning one madhab, let alone 2 or 3."

The beauty of TM is that it allows the laymen to avoid having to learn any Madhab at all, whilst still being bound to a Mujtahid. A win win situation if you ask me.

"You might find online fataawa from the Hanbali madhab say, but you would be hard pressed to find a hanbali aalim in your locality to explain the nuances of the such edicts that one may need to consider."

Please clarify what you mean by nuances
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#133 [Permalink] Posted on 6th July 2017 15:59
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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"and he or she is now locked to the Scholar."

There is no legal or rational basis for them to be locked to any one Imam.

"In the case of Taqleed Mutlaq the “release from the lock” is making the laymen susceptible to the likes of “Mufti” Abu-Layth etc."

I don't see that this would be the case, as I've explained previously.

"If the person is able to distinguish between stronger vs weaker opinions OR differences of Madhahib, he (or she) isn’t a laymen in the context of that definition."

This is not required under TM anyway.

"It is the Istihsaan of the Deobandi Ulama that lock DOES NOT release with every Mas’ala and laymen should not be put into the danger of seeking another Scholar on each occasion."

Since the discussion is in the context of Deobandi Ulema and not in general, I'll not comment any further.

Salam
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#134 [Permalink] Posted on 6th July 2017 16:16
Abu Muhammad, i don't mind discussing with you. I find , however, that you are appearing very 'salafi' in your approach. You are basically saying that Sh Taha Karan and other shafis have misinterpreted their own scholars and text, and you and the hanafi scholars have understood it correctly. In the Taraweeh thread, it seemed as if you were doing the same thing to the Maliki scholars. This is no different to the madkhali salafis, who insist only their interpretation is right and everyone else is wrong. I will now easily show you your clear misunderstanding of the text. You and I have quoted from the same passage, and you have quoted an earlier portion of the passage and tried to explain a later portion. If the passages are put in correct order, you will be able to see why you have no choice but to trust the shafi ulama's explanation. We also had this discussion before in a 'saheeh hadith is my mahab' thread.

Read the following carefully, and reread what SH Taha said, and listen to his lecture, and admit your misunderstanding. What you quoted is highlighted in blue, what i quoted is highlighted in red, both from the same scholar.


Quote:

"When you find in my kitaab anything contradicting the Sunnah of Rasulullah (s.a.s.) then say (i.e. command) the Sunnah of Rasulullah (s.a.s.) and leave aside my statement." (Imam ash-Shaafi) "When the Hadith is established as authentic in opposition to my statement, then act according to the Hadith and abandon my statement." (Imam ash-Shaafi) "When the authenticity of the Hadith is established, then that is my Mathhab." (Imam ash-Shaafi)

Imam Nawawi sats regarding the above:" Our Companions ( Shawafi') acted according to this in the matter of Tathweeb, the conditions on coming out of Ihram due to illness and other issues well-known in books of the Madhab ( Shafii). Among those of our Companions who are reported to have passed judgment on the basis of the Hadeeth ( rather then saying of Shafii) are Abu Ya'qoob Al Buweeti and Abul Qasim Ad Dariki. Of our companions from the Muhaditheen, Imam Abu Bakr Al Bayhaqi and others employed this approach. Many of our earliest companions, if they faced an issue for which there was a hadeeth, and the madhab of Shafii was contrary to it, would act according to the Hadeeth and give verdicts based on it saying : " The Madhab of Shafii is whatever agrees with the Hadeeth. This which Imam ash-Shaafi has said does not mean that everyone who sees a sahih Hadith should say "This is the mathhab of ash-Shaafi," thus practicing on the zaahir (text/external or apparent meaning) of the Hadith. This most certainly applies to only such a person who has the rank of ijtihad in the mathhab. It is a condition that he overwhelmingly believes that Imam ash-Shaafi was unaware of this Hadith or he was unaware of its authenticity. And this is possible only after having made a research of all the books of ash-Shaafi and similar other books of the Ashaab of ash-Shaafi, those who take (knowledge) from him and others similar to these (books). This is indeed a difficult condition (to fulfill). Few are there who measure up to this (standard). What we have explained has been made conditional because Imam ash-Shaafi had abandoned acting on the zaahir (text) of many Ahadith, which he say and knew. However, by him was established proof for criticism in the Hadith or its abrogation or it's specific circumstance or its interpretation, etc. Hence, he was constrained to leave aside the hadith." Shaykh Abu ‘Amr [Ibn al-Salâh] said: “It is no trivial matter to act according to the apparent meaning of what Imâm al-Shâfi‘î said. For it is not permissible for every faqîh to act independently with what he takes to be a proof from the hadîth. Among those who followed this method , are Shafis who acted on hadith which As shafi deliberately abandoned in the knowledge that it was rigorously authenticated. This was due to an objection which he was aware of but which was not apparent to others such as Abul Walid Mosa ibn Abil JArud, one of as shafi ‘s companions who said: “ The hadith: ‘the person performing cupping and the person upon whom it is performed break their fast’, is rigorously authenticated. So I say (i.e. Abul Walid) As Shafi said’the person performing cupping and the person upon whom it is performed break their fast’,” The scholars reject this claim of Abul Walid because As Shafi abandoned it in the knowledge that [the hadhith] was rigorously authenticated due to the fact that he considered it abrogated. As Shafi explained its abrogation and provided proofs… ( A sentence is quoted here about Ibn Khuzaimah)…Shaykh Abu 'Amr ( Ibnu Salah) says : " Whoever among the Shafii found a hadeeth contradicting his Madhab, he would consider whether he fulfilled the conditions of Ijtihad generally, or in that particular topic or issue, in which case he would be free to act on the hadeeth, if not ( having reached ijtihad in this topic or generally), but nevertheless he found it hard to cantradict the hadeeth after further analysis, he would be left, he would not be able to find a convincing justification for opposing the hadeethy, hence it would be left for him to act according to the Hadeeth if an independant Imam other than Shafii had acted on it, and this would be justification for his leaving the madhab of his Imam in that issue" What he ( Abu 'Amr) has said is correct and established. Allah knows best"



Also another important point to note is this: There are two issues being discussed. The first portion of the passage is dealing with a shafi scholar acting on an authentic hadith and saying, this is the statement of As Shafi and this is the Shafi madhab.
The second issue is what we are discussing in this thread, i.e. a Shafi scholar or laymen acting on a hadith against his madhab, but not ascribing the position it to the Shafi madhab
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#135 [Permalink] Posted on 6th July 2017 16:20
IslamicSciences.info wrote:
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" they wouldn't give several options and say do whichever you feel is easy for you or say 'oh by the way, the hanbali school allows this instead etc. etc.' "

Again not true. If a scholar believes several answers are equally possible, they can present all of them to the questioner and let them choose. See what Ibn Humam says about this. Even Ml Thanwi and Mufti Shafi once offered options to a questioner and said take which ever opinion you wish.

Maybe within the madhab, but you don't normally see a scholar who gives fatwa according to his madhab also give the questioner options from the other madhabs.


"The beauty of TM is that it allows the laymen to avoid having to learn any Madhab at all!"

When a layman is told by a hanafi scholar that combining salah isnt allowed, that would become his practice, so when in a situation where he might want to combine arises he won't suddenly become aware of its permission in other madhabs unless he knew beforehand. So some prior knowledge of these variant rulings is assumed.

This is the danger in present times - the layman is exposed to hordes of information and fringe opinions, and not necessarily via the medium of actual scholars but online material.
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