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Sheikh Wasiullah Abbas confirms Mufti Menk is not a Salafi, but Hanafi

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#106 [Permalink] Posted on 6th July 2017 11:05
IslamicSciences.info wrote:
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The differences you highlight are at an academic level. I would venture that the common people in those times would've been oblivious to these differences. A common person who took masail from Imam Abu Hanifa would probably stick to that and likewise with regards to Sufyan ath-Thawri etc. This is even the case today for the majority of people. Most people won't know what TM or TS is and whenever they have an issue that needs solving they would most likely go their local imam and that would be the end of the matter. It so happens that in the Subcontinent pretty much everyone's local imam is a hanafi and likewise in West Africa they are mostly maliki - so whether the common person knows it or not they would be following those schools exclusively.

Those local imams would give them an answer that conforms to their education - they wouldn't give several options and say do whichever you feel is easy for you or say 'oh by the way, the hanbali school allows this instead etc. etc.'

I would say that the above is both TM and TS, in that the first available scholars happen to be of the same disposition all the time for an individual.

However, when one is knowledgable to some extent of the different madhahibs, I agree with the method you are describing in that once one decides upon a certain way, they shouldn't change whenever it suits them. But this also has conditions as mentioned by ulema such as prohibition of talfiq etc.

But clearly TS is more cohesive, safer and easier for the layman and it is perfectly understandable why the deobandi ulema would advocate this. The common person has enough issues learning one madhab, let alone 2 or 3. You might find online fataawa from the Hanbali madhab say, but you would be hard pressed to find a hanbali aalim in your locality to explain the nuances of the such edicts that one may need to consider.
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#107 [Permalink] Posted on 6th July 2017 11:26
Asaghir I hoped you listened to the lecture by sh taha from 60 mins onwards.

My opinion is not necessary, I am not a mufti, I have merely presented the opinion of contemporary ulama from all 4 madhabs who disagree with taqlid shaksi , based on the earlier views within their madhabs. If you chose to ignore this and pretend these views are a minority, invalid or don't exist , and think that you have to right to cast aspersions on mufti menk due to this issue, then so be it.

You have brought an issue which is generally seen as not accepted within the 4 madhabs, if you want you can listen from 12 mins to hear sh taha's response

archive.org/details/QuestionAndAnswerPublic02ByAshSheikhT...

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#108 [Permalink] Posted on 6th July 2017 11:29
SunniSeeker wrote:
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You can give as much of your own feelings and opinions as you want, but they are certainly not shared by other ulama, both past and present, as clearly shown in the various links provided.
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#109 [Permalink] Posted on 6th July 2017 11:31
Concerned wrote:
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Firstly - regarding taking opinions from other madhabs:

Sh. Taha Karaan QUALIFIES this by saying if a difficulty arises.

Secondly - regarding acting upon ahadith that seemingly contradict one's own madhab:

Sh. Taha Karan again QUALIFIES this by saying and I will paraphrase:

a)One first needs to first consider/compare their own understanding to that of the ulema of their madhab.

b)If one still isn't satisfied, then YOU need to INVESTIGATE how your madhab interpreted this hadith and whether they consider it abrogated etc.

c)If still not convinced by your madhab, ONLY THEN do you follow the opinion you want as long as it is within the other madhabs.


The shaykh points out that by the above, one is going into the realms of daleel. This is different to simple taqlid and I would assume that the vast majority are incapable of this. He also says this is how Shah Waliallah rahimahullah explains it also.

The above is VASTLY different from what you took and relayed from Sh. Taha's words that, "we can follow opinions from other madhabs and even act on hadith, once another madhab acted on it." and left out the above qualifications.
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#110 [Permalink] Posted on 6th July 2017 11:41
Quote:

In our times (particularly in the West and especially in America) there is no such thing. A man (or a woman) is put on a scholarly pedestal by layman and there is no vetting of the scholarship of the person.


Therefore turning to the first available religious authority for a laymen is fraught with danger. The laymen has to do his (or her) research and get to a trustworthy and credible scholar.

Simply put, you cannot compare the level, authenticity and rigours of Islamic knowledge which exited previously to our youtube generation Imams (who talk a good game) but are terrifyingly ignorant!


Yes muadh mention lobsters in every post from now on and keep insulting me, just ignore what imam Nawawi, shah Waliullah, sh taha karan, sh raraz rabbani, sh rami nsour, and the Hanbali.madhab and many many other scholars have said on this issue, may Allah have mercy on them all.


The issues you mentioned are not solved by taqleed shaksi.

Case in point, mufti Abu layth. He is a Maliki, he studied Maliki fiqh. So if a Maliki was practicing taqleed shaksi he could just go and ask him a question. The issues you mention would still exist even though the Maliki is practicing taqleed shaksi.

What about a hanafi asking that scholar in the UK name Atabek Shukrov, or a barelwi scholar. They are both hanafis, yet somer people consider them deviant, so how would taqleed shaksi save the day? The issues you mentioned would still exist.
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#111 [Permalink] Posted on 6th July 2017 11:58
Quote:

Sh. Taha Karaan QUALIFIES this by saying if a difficulty arises.
[/quote]

You obviously have not read all of the links i provided. I can tell you that he does not meant difficulty in the same way a deobandi means difficulty.

They mean difficulty like, a shafi does not want to give wheat as sadaqatul fitr, so he give s cash, following the Hanafi view, or a shafi feels it difficult to do tawaf without touching a woman, so he adopts the Hanafi view and his wudu isn't broken by touching a woman. Or they mean a Hanafi is going on a journey on a plane or train , and he want s to combine his salah so he adopts that view. This is the difficult y they mean and this is clear for anyone to see . just read all the links I shared. So this is no major qualification.


Secondly - regarding acting upon ahadith that seemingly contradict one's own madhab:
Quote:

Sh. Taha Karan again QUALIFIES this by saying and I will paraphrase:

c)If still not convinced by your madhab, ONLY THEN do you follow the opinion you want as long as it is within the other madhabs.

The shaykh points out that by the above, one is going into the realms of daleel. This is different to simple taqlid and I would assume that the vast majority are incapable of this. He also says this is how Shah Waliallah rahimahullah explains it also
.

Well your assumption is wrong because anyone can understand that he is clearly speaking about laymen. And this is accepted , and I have confirmed this with other shafis. And if one thinks he is incapable, then he is free to stick to his madhab, but that does not mean the majority is incapable. Even ml ashraf Ali thanwi states that theoretically this permissible for a laymen, and this is quoted in the link I gave to the sh Akram thread.


Read what sh taha writes himself:

[quote]LEAVING THE BOUNDS OF THE MADHHAB

There will inevitably be instances where followers of a particular madhhab come face to face with ahadith to which their madhhab apparently does not conform. What is to be done in such cases? Should the person summarily abandon the teaching of the madhhab in favour of the hadith? Or should he dutifully stick to the madhhab and ignore the hadith?

Neither of these two approaches is free from certain undesirable outcomes. The fuqaha of our madhhab have therefore resolved the issue in a most ingenious manner that addresses both the praiseworthy desire to practice upon the hadith and the apprehension that this may lead to chaotic fiqh. In his introduction to al-Majmu‘ (vol. 1 p. 136) Imam al-Nawawi provides us with the following guidelines:

"Any Shafi‘i who finds a hadith going against his madhhab should look into the matter [as follows]: If he possesses the complete requirements of ijtihad without restriction, or in that chapter, or [even] in that point [alone], he may independently practice upon [the hadith]. If he does not [possess it] and finds it difficult to go against the hadith, and his search for a valid explanation of the hadith [within his madhhab] does not provide a convincing solution, then he may practice upon the hadith with one condition, which is that another independent [mujtahid] imam other than al-Shafi‘i should have practiced upon it. This would then be a valid pretext for him to leave the madhhab of his imam."

It is of interest here to note that all the other major schools of thought have, with varying degrees of moderation, looked upon skin contact between male and female as nullifying wudu. The Hanbalis and Malikis add the condition of deriving pleasure from such contact, while the Hanafis regard only such contact to nullify the wudu whereby there is mutual touching of the sexual organs without penetration. It should be admitted, though, that this position of the Hanafi madhhab is not founded upon the verse that speaks of touching women, but rather upon the contention that such touching almost invariably leads to the emission of fluid, which in itself is factor that nullifies the wudu.

The idea behind following madhahib is not to turn people into prisoners of their madhahib, but rather to facilitate practicing upon the Qur’an and the Sunnah. No madhhab has ever purported to be a replacement for the Qur’an and the Sunnah, nor can it ever be. The facility that a madhhab provides is that of a systematic approach to the sources of our law, accompanied by the benefit of generation after generation of the best, purest and most capable minds. And even then, there has been recognition of the fact that situations do arise when the follower of a madhhab finds it difficult to practice contrary to the apparent meaning of a hadith that he has come across. Technically speaking, all that is required for a person faced by such a situation is that his practice be based upon the ijtihad of a valid mujtahid.



So there is no vast difference between what I said and what sh taha said. And in any case all of the above was already posted, but people want to comment and argue without reading what was said.
attalib.blogspot.com/2008/06/invalidating-wudu-by-touchin...
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#112 [Permalink] Posted on 6th July 2017 12:04

Concerned wrote:
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And your standard operating procedure is to throw as much information in there as possible and try to deceive, hoodwink the reader into thinking highly of your intelligence. Let’s break down the issues and untangle the (deceptive) mess which you have created and you will find that even then your argument does not stack up.

The majority of Muslims in Britain are NOT Malikees, they are Hanafees. It is a reasonable working assumption that they will be going to see a Hanafi Scholar instead of seeking a random Maliki Scholar.

Nevertheless, let’s get DOWN to your level of intelligence and discuss two scenarios for Sister Aisha who is studying to be a midwife.

  1. Taqleed Shaksi: She asks her family, friends and people close to her and seeks their advice as to which scholar she should consult for her Mas’ail. She is directed to her (Mufti) XYZ. She has some unique circumstances and she discusses with Mufti XYZ who looks at her situation, analyses it and gives her a solution (based on Maliki Madhab).
  2. Taqleed Mutlaq: She asks her family, friends and people close to her and seeks their advice as to which scholar she should consult for her Mas’ail. She is told to consult any Scholar so she googles and comes across Mufti Abu-Layth who has a (proven) pornographic addiction. Sister Aisha has no idea because either her research didn’t turn up the information or those whom she consulted didn’t know. So she gets Masail which are to do with Haya answered by a Mufti who is addicted to pornography

In which planet and under what scenario is Taqleed Shaksi not suitable in our times?

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#113 [Permalink] Posted on 6th July 2017 12:14
Quote:
The majority of Muslims in Britain are NOT Malikees, they are Hanafees. It is a reasonable working assumption that they will be going to see a Hanafi Scholar instead of seeking a random Maliki Scholar.[/quote]


You wanted to deal with principles and now you are dealing with scenarios. Conveniently ignore the barelwis and Atabek.


[quote]Nevertheless, let’s get DOWN to your level of intelligence and discuss two scenarios for Sister Aisha who is studying to be a midwife.

Taqleed Shaksi: She asks her family, friends and people close to her and seeks their advice as to which scholar she should consult for her Mas’ail. She is directed to her (Mufti) XYZ. She has some unique circumstances and she discusses with Mufti XYZ who looks at her situation, analyses it and gives her a solution (based on Maliki Madhab).
Taqleed Mutlaq: She asks her family, friends and people close to her and seeks their advice as to which scholar she should consult for her Mas’ail. She is told to consult any Scholar so she googles and comes across Mufti Abu-Layth who has a (proven) pornographic addiction. Sister Aisha has no idea because either her research didn’t turn up the information or those whom she consulted didn’t know. So she gets Masail which are to do with Haya answered by a Mufti who is addicted to pornography
In which planet and under what scenario is Taqleed Shaksi not suitable in our times?


Lol. Forget about the closed knit Asian communities in the UK. What about REVERTS? Whay about non hanafis? They are so any Muslims across the world who do not have a madhab. They just ask any Sheikh they see regularly in their locality. There are so many people around the world who are the only individual really practicing Islam in their family. So their asking their family would not leave them to a reliable mufti. In your second scenario, what if family tells her to contact a deviated mufti, then what? What does this have to do with taqleed mutlaq?


The problem in the UK is that people don't mixx with Muslims with other cultures and madhabs.
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#114 [Permalink] Posted on 6th July 2017 12:32

Concerned wrote:
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I keep repeating that I am trying to bring myself DOWN to your level of intellect and getting down into weeds to make you see that YOUR OWN ARGUMENT doesn’t work!

  1. ERROR 1: Just because you and your family have lived in a closet environment and come from economically deprived and socially challenged environment doesn’t mean everybody else has. Don’t turn your bad experience on the rest of the British Muslims.
  2. ERROR 2: Why is the Fiqh for reverts different? The Hikmah and the mechanism of advising the Reverts may be different. I do happen to assist a number of Ulama on a number of project and when issues concern Reverts, extra care and extra caution is adopted and due deference is given to sensitivity. I think you mean “Reverts should be handled sensitively” and not Fiqh but your level of intelligence cannot distinguish between the two. Let’s again apply your own hypothetical (drummed up) scenario…Revert practises Taqleed Shaksi and he is directed to Mufti Amjad Muhammad (Bio-chemist, 10 year experience in working with a Fortune 100 company, runs a successful charity, born and bred in Britain. Revert practises Taqleed Mutalq and ends up with Atabek Shukurov who is deficient in the science of Fiqh and Hadeeth, unfamiliar with British culture and makes errors

Scholars and even laymen will direct a Revert to a well-known established scholar who is sensitive and experienced in these matters, this is Taqleed Shaksi.

Reverts not familiar with the concept will simply go any available person of knowledge.

Which scenario is better for a Revert?

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#115 [Permalink] Posted on 6th July 2017 12:40
You must think I am foolish. (Actually you do).

So British Asian Muslims must assume all other Muslims have the same network of family and friends as they do, and it is more practical and safer for them to abide by rules that seem more suitable to British Asian Muslims. Any ways this is another topic.

Quote:
Revert practises Taqleed Shaksi and he is directed to Mufti Amjad Muhammad (Bio-chemist, 10 year experience in working with a Fortune 100 company, runs a successful charity, born and bred in Britain. Revert practises Taqleed Mutalq and ends up with Atabek Shukurov who is deficient in the science of Fiqh and Hadeeth, unfamiliar with British culture and makes errors
Scholars and even laymen will direct a Revert to a well-known established scholar who is sensitive and experienced in these matters, this is Taqleed Shaksi.


I am sorry, but both aalims are hanafi, SO WHAT ON EARTH DOES this have to do with taqlid shaksi and taqleed mutlaq??? A Hanafi following Atabek is practicing taqleed shaksi. So taqleed shaksi did not save the day.

Stop trying to win. Lets just agree the deobandis have their opinion, the majority of others disagree and hold another valid opinion. simple.
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#116 [Permalink] Posted on 6th July 2017 13:22

Concerned wrote:
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Actually I do think that you are a fool because you of 3 reasons:

  1. You lack intellectual capacity to think deeply, exhibited by deep desire to continue to conjure up examples of lobsters, prawns (in which you keep failing)
  2. You lack Academic knowledge to understand all the nuances of the issues, exhibited by you being clueless about Istihsaan because if you actually understood it the discussion would have ended 5 pages ago!
  3. You are unable to read concurrently and coherently, exhibited ad follows:

Here is what I said about Sister Aisha who is studying to be a midwife.

Quote:
She asks her family, friends and people close to her and seeks…[/quote]

THEN I gave the example of Revert and it reads:

Quote:
Taqleed Shaksi and he is directed to Mufti Amjad Muhammad (Bio-chemist, 10 year experience in working with a Fortune 100 company, runs a successful charity, born and bred in Britain.

Here is what your brain conjured up!

[quote]...So British Asian Muslims must assume all other Muslims have the same network of family and friends as they do, and it is more practical and safer for them to abide by rules that seem more suitable to British Asian Muslims...

Now to your feeble attempts to narrow Taqleed Shaksi choices to Atabek Shukurov

You obviously think that Taqleed Shaksi simply means to find a HANAFI SCHOLAR at all costs. When Mufti Taqi Usmani (HA) and others define it to mean seeking answer from a credible, pious and trustworthy HANAFI SCHOLAR and not just a RANDOM Hanafi Scholar!

The whole Islamic tradition is based on seeking opinions from someone who practises Sunnah. Taqleed Shaksi is an extension of it.

This means that you don’t trust your Nafs, don’t desire your desires, don’t trust your choices but leave it to a Scholar. Your feeble mind then conjures up the question and goes straight to the exceptional circumstances “What if the Scholar whom you consulted is wrong”?

We leave the matter to Allah Ta’ala who knows the intentions and matters of the heart.

In my leadership training the first principle which was taught was that you plan for SUCCESS…Since you are just a troll, your premise is based upon plan for FAILURE!

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#117 [Permalink] Posted on 6th July 2017 14:33

"The preferred opinion among the jurists is that the layperson who is affiliated to a legal school belongs to that school and he should not act at variance with it."

Shah Waliullah - 'Iqd al-Jid fi Ahkam al-Ijtihad wal-Taqlid (pg. 134 - as attached by brother 'concerned')

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#118 [Permalink] Posted on 6th July 2017 14:36
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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TM does not mean turning to the first available scholar regardless of their reliablity/unreliability. All the usual guidelines for referring to scholars for fatwa apply here just as they would do with TS, except for referring to only one authority in all matters.

So under TM, if for example I had the choice of asking either Imam Abu Hanifah or Imam Shafi'i regarding issue X, I could approach either of them because both are reliable, and after I've taken from one of them (say IAH), it is now Wajib on me to stick to his answer on this issue X and I cannot switch to the IS therein.

In a new issue Y however, the choice has now reset for me and I can approach either of them again. However, TS says that once I've taken from IAH in issue X, I must also now stick with him for issue Y, and this is where the biggest difference between TM and TS lies.

But if the choice was between Imam Abu Hanifah and Jahm Ibn Safwan or some amateur and unskilled 'scholar', of course I would not be permitted to go to the latter (the prohibition would not be due to TM, but due to reliability issues).
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#119 [Permalink] Posted on 6th July 2017 14:39
1) Ali brought u prawns not me.

3) my brain did not conjure up anything here is what you said, and I replied to that
Quote:
ERROR 1: Just because you and your family have lived in a closet environment and come from economically deprived and socially challenged environment doesn’t mean everybody else has. Don’t turn your bad experience on the rest of the British Muslims.[/quote]


[quote]You obviously think that Taqleed Shaksi simply means to find a HANAFI SCHOLAR at all costs. When Mufti Taqi Usmani (HA) and others define it to mean seeking answer from a credible, pious and trustworthy HANAFI SCHOLAR and not just a RANDOM Hanafi Scholar!


It is obvious one should look for a credible, pious and trustworthy scholar, regardless if acting on taqleed shaksi or taqleed mutlaq. So this is not a speciality of taqleed shaksi.

So there is nothing further to discuss.


One last point , regarding your example of a revert being directed to mufti amjad.. A person goes to some masjid in Africa or India, in which the musallles are strict Malikis / hanafis, but deviant sufis. The person accepts islam and adopts the madhab of the musalles and the musallles direct him to the mufti of the masjid. The convert is practicing taqleed shaksi but of deviant people, so his taqleed has not save him.
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#120 [Permalink] Posted on 6th July 2017 14:40
Shaykh Taha Karan wrote:
"Any Shafi‘i who finds a hadith going against his madhhab should look into the matter [as follows]: If he possesses the complete requirements of ijtihad without restriction, or in that chapter, or [even] in that point [alone], he may independently practice upon [the hadith]. If he does not [possess it] and finds it difficult to go against the hadith, and his search for a valid explanation of the hadith [within his madhhab] does not provide a convincing solution, then he may practice upon the hadith with one condition, which is that another independent [mujtahid] imam other than al-Shafi‘i should have practiced upon it. This would then be a valid pretext for him to leave the madhhab of his imam."


Imam Malik who narrated many Hadith with him self in the chain of narrations, did not act upon many Hadith himself, rather he followed the people of Madinah. Same goes for Imam Abu Hanifa who narrated many Hadith but acted upon the practices of the Sahaba and Tabieen.

Imam Malik said:
"1000 from 1000 is beter than 1 from 1."

1000 peoples actions from 1000 peoples actions are better than 1 Hadith narrated from 1 person to another person.

Look at the conditions laid out by Shaykh Taha:
1: If he possesses the complete requirements of ijtihad without restriction, or in that chapter, NOT POSSIBLE

2: or [even] in that point [alone], he may independently practice upon [the hadith].
According to Imam Shafi's school of thought, following Hadith is a Misguidance!

So fair enough, that's why point 3 comes in.
3: If he does not [possess it] and finds it difficult to go against the hadith, and his search for a valid explanation of the hadith [within his madhhab] does not provide a convincing solution, then he may practice upon the hadith with one condition, which is that another independent [mujtahid] imam other than al-Shafi‘i should have practiced upon it. This would then be a valid pretext for him to leave the madhhab of his imam."
But where does one draw the line. How do they know they have covered the entire school's findings?
More from Imam Shafi's school:



"It is not easy to act according to the apparent (zaahir) text of what Imaam Shaafi said. It is not lawful for (even) every Faqeeh (qualified Aalim who has deep insight) to act independently with that which he opines to be proof from the Hadith." (I'laaus Sunan, Vol. 2, page 225)

When can a layperson EVER be qualified to decide that it's okay for him to act on the other school's opinion, be it a majority or minority view? When and how can he act on another schools opinion without knowing every aspect covered in his own school.

A tiny example that you gave was combining prayers. Yes it is permitted in other schools, but how does one deduce if Imam Abu Hanifa was incorrect and the others were correct? Did they see the evidence provided by the Hanafi, or just look for an alternative. 99% of the time, they would not have looked at the evidence, nor would they have studied their entire schools teaching, nor did they understand the reasons behind the conclusion of the other schools. They simply know there is a scapegoat or loop-hole called Taqlid Mutlaq, so lets jump the wagon!
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