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Sheikh Wasiullah Abbas confirms Mufti Menk is not a Salafi, but Hanafi

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#76 [Permalink] Posted on 4th July 2017 13:00
I would like the bro that posted the original scenario to reply. He brought it up. I would replace the drink scenario with an ice cream parlor, and ice creams which contain alcohol and are approved halal by mufti Sachs.
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#77 [Permalink] Posted on 4th July 2017 13:08
This post has been reported. It could be due to breaking rules or something as simple as bad use of bbcodes which breaks the page format. We will attend to this soon.
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#78 [Permalink] Posted on 4th July 2017 13:18
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The issue here is principle of “Taqleed Shaksi” vs “Taqleed Mutlaq”.

Taqleed Shaksi: Watch who you follow and seek advice from. Check the character, morals and practise of the person, seek the opinion of his (or her) contemporaries before approaching
Taqleed Mutlaq: Find the first available person ask and move on. Get to the person who is easily accessible to you.


You are making matters complicated. Right now a deobandi is taught that He can never combine salah before going on a Plane, and he can never eat lobster.

Both combining salah and eating lobster is allowed according to the MAJORITY. What on earth does this have to do with character and morals?

Everyone will have their personal situations to deal with, but they would not necessarily consider leaving their madhab on every single issue. They would practice according to what they learnt for the most part.
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#79 [Permalink] Posted on 4th July 2017 13:40

Concerned wrote:
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On the contrary! I am trying (unsuccessfully) to drag you to a level of discussion about principles. You are trying to drag it down to your level (of intelligence), maturity and competency.

In any Academic field (including Islam) you discuss principles and then you let the principles guide you to solutions.

You don’t jump straight ahead and start discussing scenarios and then try to deduce principles from solutions to principles.

We look at the principles which have been given to us in the Qur’aan and Sunnah and then we apply it to our lives to get to the right answer.

  1. Taqleed Shaksi: Protection for laymen and greater empowerment for the laymen to research and investigate a Scholar before seeking an opinion
  2. Taqleed Mutlaq: Easy access and fit solution for the problem

Once principles are established, sometimes you will get a solution to your liking and sometimes you won’t. That’s what Islam tells us, life is easy sometimes and sometimes it isn’t.

You keep imploring in every thread for everyone to explore your point of view so we urge you to do the same.

Try to raise your level of intellect (it may be difficult for you but try) and learn to discuss principles instead of stating hypothetical scenarios (which your mind conjures) up. Once we have settled principles, we can argue about women attending Mosques (which if I am not mistaken) you have been arguing about for close to a decade without understanding the underlying principles. 

Your whole stance  is to look at an issue (in isolation) and then argue and debate about it, rather than zooming out and looking at the fuller picture.

[QUOTE:Concerned]Everyone will have their personal situations to deal with, but they would not necessarily consider leaving their madhab on every single issue. They would practice according to what they learnt for the most part.[/quote]

It is the most persuasive argument in favour of Taqleed Shaksi.

  1. Lives have personal situation have to BEND to fit Islam
  2. Islam cannot be BENT to fit lives have personal situation

[QUOTE:Concerned]Both combining salah and eating lobster is allowed according to the MAJORITY. What on earth does this have to do with character and morals? [/quote]

Shariah is not Westminster where the laws can be decided by majority and minority. 

If we lived in a country where “Hijab” is banned and majority doesn’t wear it….Shariah will be bent to cater for that?

Many Arab states banned beard in 1980 so the Shariah can becomes to not have a Beard because it is the majority opinion.

That’s why it’s important to discuss principles. Since you lack the intellectual depth and academic research, you will jump on the two points above and start talking about beards and Hijab because it is most suited to your level of intellect.

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#80 [Permalink] Posted on 4th July 2017 14:04
Quote:
You are making matters complicated. Right now a deobandi is taught that He can never combine salah before going on a Plane, and he can never eat lobster.

Both combining salah and eating lobster is allowed according to the MAJORITY

Forget about the lobster for now, can we discuss this combining of Salah here www.muftisays.com/forums/76-the-true-salaf-as-saliheen/50...
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#81 [Permalink] Posted on 4th July 2017 14:06
Be open minded and gentle :)
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#82 [Permalink] Posted on 4th July 2017 15:00

Diminishing the argument and humiliating the discourse by coming down to the intellect level of concerned.

[QUOTE:Concerned]Both combining salah and eating lobster is allowed according to the MAJORITY. What on earth does this have to do with character and morals? [/quote]

Tajikistan: State religion is Islam and State Madhab is Hanafi

  1. Hijab BANNED
  2. Beard BANNED
  3. Majority have neither

Does it become the defacto ruling for Muslims in Tajikistan and defacto ruling of the Hanafi Madhab?

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#83 [Permalink] Posted on 4th July 2017 17:43
Please stick to the current topic. Irrelevant posts, posts inciting a debate or disrespect towards another member will be removed without notice. Jazakumullah
Please maintain respect for each other and Ulamaa (if topic is about a scholar) by avoiding accusations and slanderous comments. Also remember that in order for criticism to be constructive, it must be channeled in the right direction. If there is any doubt in a matter, it is better to ask, clarify or to remain silent rather than to speak ill of another person.
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#84 [Permalink] Posted on 4th July 2017 17:49
Ali I am waiting for your comments on an alternate version of your scenario.

Quote:
Once principles are established, sometimes you will get a solution to your liking and sometimes you won’t. That’s what Islam tells us, life is easy sometimes and sometimes it isn’t.[/quote]

Once the principles are derived by man, it is not necessary to abide by those principles in every single matter, once there is evidence to do otherwise. Shah Waliullah also discusses this and shows that in some cases the hanafis stook to these derived principles and went against the evidences, and in some cases they went with the evidences against the principles.

Quote:
Lives have personal situation have to BEND to fit Islam
Islam cannot be BENT to fit lives have personal situation


Yes , bend to fit Islam, not bend to fit man made principles that are disagreed upon by the madhaib, and not based on clear cut, absolute evidence.


[quote]Shariah is not Westminster where the laws can be decided by majority and minority.

If we lived in a country where “Hijab” is banned and majority doesn’t wear it….Shariah will be bent to cater for that?

Many Arab states banned beard in 1980 so the Shariah can becomes to not have a Beard because it is the majority opinion.



I don't know what you are going on about. I am speaking about what the majority of ulama have said about an issue based on their evidences, and you are speaking about what countries and rulers do clear opposition of Islam.

You agreed with my first post. I do not see what caused you to change your mind and start disagreeing with the same point that was made in the first post.

I don't think the two of us will get anywhere in this discussion.
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#85 [Permalink] Posted on 4th July 2017 18:13
Concerned wrote:
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To those whom it concerns ;)

Honestly brother, I missed that post. But, again honestly brother, I don't see the point of riding on a roundabout with you. The item that was haram throughout the school was squid, not prawns which has various opinions within the scholars of the school. Don't even start on those fizzy drinks :)

But on a new topic, new thread, I really want you to tell me more on
Quote:
in some cases the hanafis stook to these derived principles and went against the evidences, and in some cases they went with the evidences against the principles.

Genuinely interested but in a new thread.
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#86 [Permalink] Posted on 4th July 2017 18:26
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The item that was haram throughout the school was squid, not prawns which has various opinions within the scholars of the school. Don't even start on those fizzy drinks :)


That is the point, why is it not a big deal if the difference is within the school, but its such a big deal when the difference is outside of the school. It still boils down to halal vs haram food. So taqleed shaksi is no help here.
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#87 [Permalink] Posted on 4th July 2017 18:51

Concerned wrote:
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I agreed with the concept of Taqleed Mutlaq in principle which is correct. I then explained further Taqleed Shaksi is safer. I then went even further to say that those advocating Taqleed Shaksi admit to Taqleed Mutlaq being a valid position but after analysis and review deem Taqleed Shaksi to b safer for the protection of Eemaan of Muslims.

All of it is beyond your level of intellect so lost on you (of course).

Then to argue about your point of majority vs minority (like you have done some kind of analysis) instead of just expunging hot air (as you usually do)….I said that Shariah is NOT WESTMINISTER i.e:

All in favour say Aay
All against, say Nay

All of it is also beyond your intellectual capability as to why Majority is not a concern in Islamic law.

Then I went beyond and gave you the example of Tajikistan that in that society Hijab and beard are both outlawed and majority is stripped of both of these and majority ULAMA (yes Ulama) give Fatwa of their impermissibility so do we take that?

Again, beyond your intellectual grasp and capability. 

Concerned wrote:
View original post

The issue isn't of squids or lobsters (although in your mind) these must be earth shattering matters.

Both of these can be easily accommodated for while still adhering to Taqleed Shakhsi.

It’s the principles of Islamic which need to be argued but since your reach is to your stomach (only)….Your grasp is only equal to your reach.

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#88 [Permalink] Posted on 5th July 2017 13:48
Following of nafs is a possibility whether someone adopts Taqlid Mutlaq or Shakhsi (inter-Madhab differences), but I don't agree with the proponents of TS when they argue that TM necessarily opens the doors to following desires considering there are at least two different forms of TM, each with its own dynamics.

1. Some said TM is only allowed in unrelated masaa'il, so for e.g. in all the masaa'il of taharah & salah, one should follow one Madhab, but in buyoo, one may follow a different Madhab since it is independent of taharah and Salah. Don't see how desires would be a problem under this system of TM given the stance of TS proponents.

2. Some said TM is allowed almost unrestrictedly (excluding where obvious contradictions occur) & this is usually where TS proponents argue that following of desires becomes a real danger, but imho it need not be. This is because it may be ruled that once a person adopts a certain mas'alah, he is not allowed to leave it even if he hears to its contrary from another scholar. For example, I adopt the Hanafi view on bleeding breaking Wudhu because this is the first fatwa I got. Then I hear a Shafi'i say it doesn't break Wudhu, but I am not allowed to adopt it eventhough I practice TM since I already have the initial Hanafi answer that I've adopted. Or someone is given both options at the first instance and he chooses one. He is now not allowed to adopt the other. In the issue of touching women breaking Wudhu however, I may adopt the Shafi'i view eventhough in the bleeding mas'alah I follow the Hanafi view. So here you have TM almost unrestricted and yet no Madhab hopping to suit desires.



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#89 [Permalink] Posted on 5th July 2017 15:14
IslamicSciences.info wrote:
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I was also thinking along similar lines. However...

TM worked well in the past because access to information for the laity was less than it is at present and so were not exposed to a diversity of opinions. Each locality had their own 'culture' and the ulema therein pretty much were of the same disposition in fiqh matters. Hence there would've been some sort of uniformity in practice in each locality - you could say although it was TM outwardly, it was more like TS as the ulema on had access to were of similar 'type'.

As people began to get exposed to diverse variety of scholars, the need for TS became apparent.

Now it is a completely different situation...if the need for TS became apparent hundreds of years ago, it is even more so now. One only has to pose a question to google on a single issue and you are provided with a whole variety of answers - which do you accept and on what basis?
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#90 [Permalink] Posted on 5th July 2017 16:28
Good points brothers.

The topic is on mufti menk, so now let's get to the crux of the discussion.

Many Muslim's who believed that the mufti was a Hanafi, will now believe that he is a Salafi.

If he isn't a Salafi, then he should've known that he will be seen around and should be careful.

I appreciate that he did make it clear in the beginning that there were many ways of offering Salah and so on, but why did he do it?

Was he thinking about his peers or was he sending another message out.

I always felt and defended him being Hanafi, but now, practicing TM, he is definitely giving the wrong impression.

To me, this feels like a huge issue and will become one of the biggest negative impacts he's going to have on Hanafi's, especially the lesser educated one, the ones whose source is google and youtube.

In fact, most of his talks are so good that people share them to educate ignorant friends and family, but now, in response, all their gonna hear is that he's another Salafi, another Dr Zakir Naik. Where we only listen to some of his stuff and ignore the rest, so where will they draw the line?
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