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Sheikh Wasiullah Abbas confirms Mufti Menk is not a Salafi, but Hanafi

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#46 [Permalink] Posted on 3rd July 2017 19:34

abu mohammed wrote:
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Concerned wrote:
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You both have valid points academically.

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#47 [Permalink] Posted on 3rd July 2017 21:50
Shah Waliullah? (rahimahulla)

Different time, different people, different society. The reality today is totally different. People are much weaker, more careless, more selfish and more greedy than probably at any other point in history thanks to a secualr capitalist worldview.

Have you not seen whats been happening in the last 50 years? People have become careless with their deen becasue there is always "a different opinion" for eveything to choose from. They have no other criteria excpet, this opinion suits my lifestyle so I'll choose it.

I have seen this happening to so many people and they are destroying themselves bit by bit until they are not even praying anymore.

Yes there is no wisdom in this day and age in not doing taqleed shaksi for the masses. Just take alook around you at what people are doing. Everywhere you look people are choosing opinons to follow their nafs. This is not an opinon, it is a fact. It would only be an opinion if it could not be quantified.

You can keep you head buried in the sand and ignore it. Up to you. You can carry on shouting as much as you like "difference of opinon", it's not going to improve the muslim situation. It will only make it worse.

And in case you missed it, I did say in the last post, taqleed shaksi was for the masses, the issue is more nuanced for the scholars.

Anyway, what criteria do you personally use to choose between opinions if you're not doing taqleed shaksi?

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#48 [Permalink] Posted on 3rd July 2017 22:16
Also, what exactly do you mean when you said

"but stop ignoring the other valid opinions and insisting that only deobandis are correct , and this goes for many issues."

Not that I agree with deobandis on everything but what other issues are you talking about?
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#49 [Permalink] Posted on 3rd July 2017 22:34
Shah Waliullah would've made this ruling for the Ulama. Since when are we Ulama?

Also the Ulama who do practice this, should not do it so openly in front of laypeople, otherwise what they are doing is spreading the wrong message and corrupting the laypeople further.

Ulama like Mufti Menk need to be cautious of this, otherwise, there will be more ghair muqallids than we need.

My association with Deobandi Ulama is that I grew up in such a masjid, otherwise I wouldn't have a clue what Deoband is. In fact my children know we are Hanafi, but they don't really know what being a Deobandi is, yet at the same time, they know we are not Barelwi.

Members claiming to practice this method make it sound like they are Ulama and challenge laypeople, another danger.

As was mentioned before, some things are not halal in one school, in fact, they are haram, yet it's halal in another school. And without sticking to I've school in all things, you will most densely definitely get messed up.

An Example is the lecture by Shaykh Riyadhul Haq. I have done a thread on it and makes so much sense if followed correctly.
www.muftisays.com/forums/76-the-true-salaf-as-saliheen/49...
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#50 [Permalink] Posted on 3rd July 2017 22:52
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Shah Waliullah would've made this ruling for the Ulama. Since when are we Ulama?


I find you make a lot of unsubstantiated claims these days :). This is untrue, he spoke about all categories of people, and explained the various opinions regarding each category. What is the proof of your claim?
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#51 [Permalink] Posted on 3rd July 2017 23:01
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Jzk, please elaborate and clarify the matter for me and the others.
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#52 [Permalink] Posted on 3rd July 2017 23:05
On a side note, here is what happens when Ulama from other schools don't listen to their elders.

Quote:
ccording to Molwi Ajmad 'Ali A'zami, the deputy (khalifah) of Ahmad Rada Khan Barelwi, it is permissible for the khawwas to perform tawaf around the graves to seek blessings.

He writes in Bahar-i-Shari'ah,.4:90, a book of fiqh for the general public,

"And tawaf ta'zimi (for reverence) around the grave is not allowed, but if circumambulates around the grave to gain blessings, then there is no harm in this. But awwam (laymen) would be stopped from this and [this] should not be performed in front of the laymen..."

How and when would a Barelwi know where to draw the line? Similarly, Deobandi and non Deobandi would make errors in other matters of Fiqh. Hence the importance of what we laypeople are saying
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#53 [Permalink] Posted on 4th July 2017 00:34
abu mohammed wrote:
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I will see what I can do, the best thing I can recommend is purchase the book and read it. I would scan the entire book, but I think there would be copy rite issues.

In the mean time, here is what I had posted in another thread. You can also download the pdf of Ml Abul Hasan Ali's book, which was also posted on this forum, and read some of the Shah's quotes in there.

Quote:
The following is taken from Savious of Islamic Spirit, Vol 4. by Ml. Abul Hasan Ali Nadwi R.A. Note that this is not me quoting snippets from Shah Waliullah and trying to show his view on taqleed rather these are the words of Ml Abul Hasan Ali Nadwi regarding the Shah Waliullah's R.A. view on taqleed. I would assume this explanation also gives some insight into Ml Abul Hasan Ali Nadwi's own views. Download the pdf to read the full section and the direct quotes from Shah Waliullah.

The M o d e ra te View

A distinguishing feature of Shah Waliullah’s revivalist endeavour which was the result of his instinctive perception, was the moderate and balanced approach he had adopted in regard to ijtihad (individual reasoning) and taqleed (the unquestioning acceptance of the rulings of earlier jurists of one's own school). The Shah's approach in this matter showed his strong common sense, realism and discernment. On the one hand, there were scholars who deemed it incumbent on all Muslims, whether a scholar or a commoner, to follow the Qur’an and Sunnah and to derive legal rulings directly from these sources. They considered taqleed to be forbidden. This way of thought, though not explicitly spelt out by them, is the logical conclusion of the views expressed in the writings of the scholars of this school, headed by ‘Allama Ibn Hazm among the earlier academicians. But this was impracticable since it was beyond the competence of every Muslim to exercise individual reasoning in legal matters. On the other hand, there were those who considered taqlid obligatory for every Muslim and held the opinion that the least deviation from it amounted to waywardness and errancy almost in the same way as the former group deprecated taqlid of anyparticular school of jurisprudence. Those who favoured taqlid closed their eyes to the fact that the adoption of any particular juristic school was just a means to keep the common people away from following their own whims and personal predilections, to protect the Muslim society from confusion and anarchy, to bring about orderliness and uniformity in religious observances and, finally, to make it easier for the common people to abide by the injunctions of the shariah. But they took the means for the end and insisted on it so dogmatically that the entire issue which pertained to legal methodology was ossified as if it were an article of faith, abiding and immutable. The viewpoint of the Shah in this regard was nearer to the spirit of shari'ah. He drew inspiration from the practice followed in the earliest era of Islam which showed greater practical sense and feasibility since it met the demands of human life and psyche. In a chapter dealing with the practice followed by the people upto fourth century A.H. and thereafter in the investigation and scrutiny o f religious issues he has given in the Hujjat Allah al-Baligha a detailed account of the method of legal inquiry of those times-..........


The Shah adopted the course o f moderation between ijtihad and taqlid which chimed with the objectives Of the shari'ah,human psychology and the realities of life. He approved of taqlid on the conditions that intention was seemly and proper and one was clear in his mind about emulating the Prophet (on whom be peace). and following the injunctions of the Qur’an and the 'sunnah. He permitted dependence on an scholar solely on the ground of one’s confidence in his being an exponent and interpreter o f shan'ah by virtue of his being learned in the Qur'an and the sunnah. Such reliance was also to be accompanied by a willingness to discard a scholar in case the trust reposed in him proved to be misplaced. He held that a believer should not have the least hesitation in accepting a directive contained in a hadith if the opinion of the jurist was found to differ from it.
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#54 [Permalink] Posted on 4th July 2017 02:00
Attached are scans of the last few pages of the book Iqd al jid fi ahkam al ijtihad wa taqlid by Shah Waliullah R.A. iqdaljid124.jpeg iqdaljid126.jpeg iqdaljid132.jpeg iqdaljid134.jpeg

“According to this example an analogy to the case of following a particular Imam must be drawn, for this may be obligatory or it may not be required. Thus if there is an ignorant person is in India or Transoxiana, and there is no Shafi‘i, Maliki or Hanbali scholar there, and no book from the books of those madhhabs, it is necessary for him to do taqlid of the madhhab of Abu Hanifah, and it is forbidden for him to leave his madhhab, because by doing so he will release [himself from] the noose of the Shari‘ah and will remain aimless and without purpose; as distinguished from the situation where one is in the two Harams, because there it is easy for him to know all the madhhabs. It is not sufficient for him to act on conjecture without verification nor to take up the pracitice of the general public, nor to act on books which are not authorative, all of which are mentioned in al-Nahr al-Fa’iq Sharh Kanz al-Daqa’iq.” (al-Insaf fi Bayan Asbab al-Ikhtilaf, ]
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#55 [Permalink] Posted on 4th July 2017 09:22
Taqleed shaksi has always been the majority opinion, not just a deobandi opinion as you have deceptively tried to portray it (something you seem to do on a number of threads)

Even the minority opinion of saying taqleed shaksi is not neccessary came with it's own conditons as can be seen from your own posts and scans above, with a common theme being not choosing based on whims.
And that was in a time when:

1: the general taqwa of the people was much higher
2: most people would have had access to only their local mujtahids as it would have taken them days to travel to get another opinion, so picking and choosing according to whims was greatly reduced.
3: opinions did not easily get mixed from area to area becasue of difficulties of communication which would take days so picking and choosing according to whims was greatly reduced.

These days the doors of opinon, travel and communication have been flung open, so not doing taqleed shaksi for lay people is nothing but foolishness and destruction as I said before. This is not an opinion, just open your eyes and look around you to see what is happening and you will realise it is fact.

So why so heavily promote a minority opinion that was more suited to a different time?

here's some more reading for you to do with plenty of quotes from non deobandi scholars on taqleed shaksi.

The Majority Of Ulama On Taqleed Shakhsi (Specific Taqleed)


And you still have not told us what your criteria for picking and choosing opinions.

And also:

"but stop ignoring the other valid opinions and insisting that only deobandis are correct , and this goes for many issues."

what other issues are you talking about? (note how you once again deceptively try to make me sound like i'm only insisting the deobandis are correct)

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#56 [Permalink] Posted on 4th July 2017 10:45
You need to start taking in information with an open mind and then come to a conclusion, rather than view information through the lens of your preconceived opinions and conclusions. If this is not possible, then stick to your opinions without trying to incorrectly portray the validity,acceptance or practicality of other opinions. We already discussed this whole issue in another thread.

The fact is that the relied upon position given by ulama of 3 madhab's is that "taqleed shaksi" is not necessary. Within the Hanafi school, even non deobandi ulama agree with the view of the other 3 madhabs. Yet you want to tell me this is a minority opinion? And then you want to tell me this is the impression you get from all I posted above????

My comment about insisting on the deobandi position in other issues while dismiss ing other valid views was a general comment and not directed at you.
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#57 [Permalink] Posted on 4th July 2017 10:49

The matter is down to Istihsaan of our times. We have people who have problems waking up for Fajar and it is the level of Taqwa of our people.

We cannot let people run amock, google and adopt the rulings from Ulama (whose own practise of Sunnah is suspect). We live in an era where Abu-Layth is considered a "Mufti".

How can laymen be left to select opinnion.  The books of Fiqh tell you to follow a reputable Scholar, who determines this? In the West the critteria is about those who have the most Social Media following or whose youtube talks are the most snazziest with the greatest wow factor.

The "Ulama" concentrate on Ilm and not on being Social Media experts while the latter don't necessarily have Ilm. In our times "Activists" have taken over from "Ulama".

Taqleed Shaksi is the only sensible option for laymen. The example of Mufti Menk is precisely why the matter needs to be restricted, we live in a Superstar world.

How many Ulama worldwide endorse Mufti Menk for his knowledge and Taqwa?

I am not belittling him but raising a point.

Concerned wrote:
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Nope!

The issue is about my Aakhira and salvation. I don’t give a damn about an open mind!

I need to die on my Eemaan and gain entry to paradise. I am not in a philosophy class, brainstorming and articulating the pros and cons of a position.

  1. This is my Deen
  2. This my life
  3. I will follow the (closest) to Sunnah
  4. I will (try) to achieve the pleasure of Allah

P.S: Forget about being "open", you don't even have a mind as half the time your discussions indicate. You are simply a copy/paster and a troll. Deen may be trolling for you, its a matter of our life.

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#58 [Permalink] Posted on 4th July 2017 10:57
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What about the views of contemporary Ulama. Some works from Ulama of the past can't be used today. We've moved on big time and now we live in a time where everyone is diluting their school!

Soon, everyone will be a ghair muqallid!

Soon there will be no 'pure' person living their life married to their divorced wife and committing zina. Soon no one will have wudu when offering Salah, women will be holding and reading the Quran whilst in a state of impurity, coming to the mosque when impure even though they won't be praying. Then soon they'll even start praying. And the list can just go on until one day we are no different from the kuffar. Oh wait, let's practice mutah now coz I read it in a Hadith book.

I got a PhD, so surely I'm capable of making my own decisions, I don't have to follow one school for everything, I don't have to listen to these scholars. I know what I'm doing!
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#59 [Permalink] Posted on 4th July 2017 11:10
Yeah OK the shafis got it wrong, the hanbalis got it wrong and the Malikis got it wrong, and even the non deobandi hanafis got it wrong. You are right and everyone else is wrong. Because of mufti Abu layth, everyone must be forced to adopt the man made rules of taqleed shaksi.

There is nothing in the Quran or sunnah that would make taqleed shaksi binding on people, so don't make it seem as if others are going against the sunnah and using philosophy! Your mentioning akhirah and salvation is exactly what ml Abul Hasan Ali nadwi r.a. spoke about when mentioning Shah's r.a. view.

". But they took the means for the end and insisted on it so dogmatically that the entire issue which pertained to legal methodology was ossified as if it were an article of faith, abiding and immutable."


You know when I first purchased shah Waliullah "difference of opinion in fiqh" I was expecting to read proofs of taqleed shaksi being necessary and feeling comfortable that it is the correct view. To my surprise this was not the case. It took me a while to realize that its not a matter of choosing between the "salafi" way and taqleed shaksi, but rather there were actually other valid views in relation to taqleed.
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#60 [Permalink] Posted on 4th July 2017 11:13
Asaaghir wrote:
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Contemporary ulama of all 4 madhabs (with the exception of deobandis) clearly state that this taqleed shaksi as being promoted by deobandi is not Necessary on all Muslims. They are much more flexible in taqleed issues and following hadith.

So with all due respect, what is your point?
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