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#166 [Permalink] Posted on 5th December 2018 10:44
bint e aisha wrote:
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Did you know ‘khawarij’ declared war on Syedena Ali Ra because of their wrong interpretation of this and similar ayaat ?
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#167 [Permalink] Posted on 5th December 2018 10:51
ALIF wrote:
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They were wrong in interpreting it and making takfeer of Sayyidina Ali and Muawiyah رضي الله عنهم. I'm not declaring anyone as kafir نعوذ باللہ; my own relatives are a part of this system and I do have good relations with them. I just posted the verse because Ulama do apply this ayah in this situation. If there's any Alim who does not interpret it this way, then please tell me and I'll retract inshaAllah.
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#168 [Permalink] Posted on 5th December 2018 11:48
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Brother there is an ijtihadi disagreement between senior ulema about democracy. Unfortunately, the other side is not much spoken about in front of the common public.

My only problem with democracy is that why fight with kuffar in Afghanistan for Shariah if we want to support democracy here. Hazrat, one side only. Either this way or that way. Aadha Teetar Aadha Batair nahin.

Islam guides us in every aspect of life and we don't need any foreign and alien ideologies for guidance.
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#169 [Permalink] Posted on 5th December 2018 12:06
In my humble opinion, thinking that the problems plaguing Pakistan can be resolved through a democratic process, is analogous to having hurt your right knee and applying ointment to the left knee and then wondering why the pain in the right knee won't go away. We are Muslims, we should be looking towards our amaal for the solution to our problems. The problems that we are plagued with are there due to our bad deeds and no amount of democratic process can fix that. The solution lies in each and every individual trying to fix his own self, rather than looking to a higher authority to magically fix everything. Just think about it for a moment, if every person is busy in personal islah, the society as a whole automatically becomes morally sound. And when the society is morally sound, it will churn out morally sound leaders.

So for me, each vote is an endorsement for this system as THE way to solve our problems, and since I don't want to endorse it, I don't vote.
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#170 [Permalink] Posted on 5th December 2018 12:43
fod1083 wrote:
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Agreed,democracy is actually adding to our problems rather than decreasing it.It is not even a ‘representative’ system. It is the rule of a ‘minority’ over majority.

In every election,more or less 50% of eligible voters vote,meaning fifty percent voters disapprove of all the parties and candidates OR are simply not interested. Out of those 50% who voted,the votes are distributed between many candidates and one of them wins getting the majority of votes,say A gets 25% and wins,while B and C gets 12% and 13% each (remember,those 12%+13% disapproved A and voted for either B or C)
It means the winning candidate wins despite 75% of people are either against him or are not interested enough to come for vote...

How irrational to call it ‘representation’ of the will of people :)
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#171 [Permalink] Posted on 5th December 2018 12:43
fod1083 wrote:
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"Every person does his personal Islah" is a good statement on paper however, ground realities tell us another story.

The majority has to be tutored and trained in state institutions and without Islam being implemented as a political-socio-economic system, only a small minority is going to do it's islah.

Remove the judicial and educational systems from the west and I will see for how long the westerners remain honest and truthful with each other, let alone with foreigners or non western nations.

What was the reason of Allah revealing verses regarding hadd on consuming liquor and committing zina and stealing if islah on individual and personal level was enough.

Yes! Those who want to change the system must do their own personal islah first but the majority will get it's islah when the system is changed.
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#172 [Permalink] Posted on 5th December 2018 13:24
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You misunderstand the point. Personal islah is not a matter of everyone waking up one day and deciding to bring their life upon complete deen. Personal islah is a result of persistent efforts by the few individuals who are actually "woke" to awaken the rest of us too. Meaning the solution has always been in dawah illallah. The effort of dawah is meant to be a continuous effort where a society is brought to correction through repeated efforts. You can't just tell your friend one day not to break a traffic signal and expect him to heed to this advice of yours for his entire life. No, you tell him every day, and finally one day he realizes how right you are and next time obeys traffic rules without your telling him to do so. This is the true effort of dawah. And notice how this didn't require any "enforcement" or any "jabbar" from your end. It was purely persistent effort. This can only happen if people have patience. Thing with people nowadays is that they want instant gratification. Instant results. They want to tell their countrymen to obey the laws of traffic and expect them to instantly start listening to them. When it doesn't work, they suggest solutions like "the government should impose heavy fines" to bring them to obedience. That kind of action will bring them to obedience instantly, yes. But only till that authority remains which was morally sound enough to enforce such fines. The moment that authority is replaced by one that is morally corrupt, ordinary people will revert to their previous law breaking. True and effective change demands that a person is changed even if there is no authority forcing some penalty upon him.

So all in all, I understand where you're coming with the whole "there needs to be a system to impose hadd", etc. I don't believe that is actually a solution that will last. Even if you take the example of Sahaba RA, the hadds imposed upon them were after the Prophet SAW had worked on their emaans for 13 years. For instance, only after the emaan had been completely established did Allah ask them to quit alcohol. Such was the effort of our blessed Prophet SAW that the Sahaba wasted no time in spilling their wine on the streets. Without even questioning the rationale behind such an order.

Do you think we, the Muslims of today, are in such a state of emaan that even hadds can force us to immediate obedience of the laws of Shariah? Now is the time for rebuilding through dawah. The time for choosing the right people in power will come later, when we have the right people amongst us.
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#173 [Permalink] Posted on 5th December 2018 19:11
fod1083 wrote:
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I am understanding from where you are coming. However, the process of Islah you defined is very slow and it will not work on every one because:

1. Laaton ke bhoot baaton sey nahin maantey. (Stubborn souls need lashes to be corrected)

2. Rulers affect the morals of their nations. If the rulers from above are honest, the common man is affected by them. Same is the case if they are dis honest. I have talked on this issue in another thread.

3. If dawah and deeni educational institutions are supported and controlled by the state, the process of Islah will increase tenfold as compared to some people from awam doing it.

4. Islah has two aspects.

a. You leave bad habits and start doing good deeds.
b. Either you change the environment which led you to develop bad habits or else you leave that environment altogether.

If my neighbours listen to loud music during weddings and major events, I can't stop them because they can give an excuse that this is the event of celebration and I should let them enjoy it. It will take many years for me to convince their secular mind that music isn't allowed in Islam and there are certain rights of neighbours. Yes! If I have no other choice then this route is the best one which you are proposing. However, if I am able to and (IF with emphasis) I am able to then implementing Islam as a system and not merely a religion is the better option which will generate faster and more effective results. Under a khalifa I along with my family and my neighbours will get a deeni education from the very start, and neither I would need to tell my neighbours that music is haram nor I would have to convince them to fulfill the rights of neighbours because they will get that training by state run deeni educational institutions. Actually, my ideas and statements seem stranger to people who believe that only tabligh or academic effort is enough because, I believe that after doing personal islah and creating a team of those who are willing to be corrected and learn and also have the capacity to be corrected despite of the dirtiness of the environment, the second most important thing is to gather the means of building a khilafah state which could then become a grand madrassah and khanqah for the whole nation. (In other words, I believe that a leader must create a team of elite momineen through dawah, ilm and tazkiyah and then through revolution establish khilafah in order to correct and educate the masses). However, until the leader comes, we must do whatever we can but always keep this in mind that whatever limited effort we are doing, isn't sufficient to solve all the problems. We are just trying our best and the real solution is khilafah. This thing should always be in our mind.

The point which I am trying to make is that the level of fitnah and fasaad which we are seeing today, cannot be controlled and contained with individual dawah alone. This methodology may have been sufficient 100 years ago when fitnah was not that much and when you couldn't see dancing girls with the flip of your finger (just like that). However, the fitnah has to be stopped at some point and only the state has the resources to stop it.

5. Sahaba RA were the creative minority in the vast silent majority of the Arabs. Prophet Muhammad SAWS prepared a team of that awakened and enlightened minority, polished them and launched them against the evil system of that time. They brought the first successful Islamic revolution under his leadership.

Today, we are not dealing with kuffar. We are dealing with shallow non practicing Muslims. Our first duty is to correct the believing Ummah (after our own islah of course) before paying attention to the kuffar. We don't need to work on the iman of each individual and wait for 9000 years in order to achieve the goal of implementing shariah. Shariah isn't all about lashes and punishment. The main benefit of Islam being implemented upon the state and by the state is that it creates an environment which discourages open sin and encourages the deeds of piety. The khilafah will suppress the secularists, modernists and any anti religious voice and force. On the other hand it will encourage the works of deen. The opposite is true now in a secular state. Now the work of deen is becoming difficult day by day and secularists and modernists are more powerful here. So we need to work on ourselves first and then create a team of not the vast majority but a creative and active minority with high iman to bring the revolution. Quality and not quantity is the key.

This is simple logic that state owned institutions are more powerful and influential than non state institutions.

Let me give you an example. We all agree that sectarianism is a great problem and threat for Islam and this ummah. However, what is the root cause. The root cause is the corrupt who have taken hold of the mimbers and are spilling hatred and pitting Muslims with each other, and propagating false and alien ideologies. If Islamic minded rulers come to power and if they implement shariah, they will naturally remove those fake ones and install true ulema on positions of power who will start uniting ummah under one flag and promote the correct and authentic version of deen.

Because khilafa isn't there, the fake ones are succeeding in their evil designs and the true ones are trying their best to hold their ground. They are able to control the problem to some extent with some kind of success. However, they can't completely crush the batil unless they don't come to power.

Let me give you another example. We take medicine to cure our disease. However, we also have to refrain from eating those things which our doctor has warned us against. If we don't take precaution, our medicine will not be effective. Similarly, if we do dawah of iman and islah. (Very good excellent work). However, if the environment keeps on getting dirtier and dirtier with passing time and if the evils of the society aren't dealt with, then the effects of our dawah effort will become weaker and weaker and eventually a time will come when, we will have to flee from that environment otherwise, the workers of deen themselves will lose their iman.

So Amr bil maroof wa Nahi anil munkar has different stages (darajaat). Effort of grass roots level by the public as well as state level effort which supports every deeni effort including the individual dawah effort.

Finally, Nabi Paak SAWS, from his very first day challenged the established system of Makkans and Arabs.

La ilaha illallah doesn't only mean that "Only Allah is the doer and no one else or only He is to be worshiped and nothing else"

La ilaha illallah also means that no other law but only Allah's law will be implemented because He is the creator of all things and only His law is to be established. Man is his khalifa and it is his duty to implement that law and stop the corruption and fasaad on earth.

Abu Jahil and Quraish leaders knew the meaning of this kalima and could foresee that their power over people and their exploitation over people (because of people's ignorance) will be diminished if they allow Prophet SAWS to propagate this revolutionary message. And this is what kuffar are afraid of today. (Khilafah) which will destroy the zulm their secular system has done on women by ripping their clothes off in the guise of women rights. On children by destroying their family life. On adults by promoting individualism, materialism and selfishness and the slavery of nafs e ammarah which results in young ones leaving their elders in their time of helplessness and old age. On men who have become womanly, cowardly and weak because of media and stupid education system and man made traditions and distorted standards of right and wrong. On animals and this very planet because of the destruction humans are doing because of their greed and lust to fulfill their carnal desires which this system has ruthlessly nurtured. They want to destroy even the concept of khilafah and that is why they are trying to win this battle of hearts and minds in order to win the physical war on ground. However, they will not succeed in their evil designs and truth seekers will always be there even if they are few and true Muslims with correct understanding will Insha Allah always be there even if few in number.
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#174 [Permalink] Posted on 6th December 2018 10:50
fod1083 wrote:
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السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته

This is a false ideology perpetrated by the tablighis that Islam does not spread and does not get established by force. Islam is established by both enjoining good AND forbidding evil.

Quote:
You are the best nation brought forth for the people of the world: you enjoin right and you forbid wrong, and you believe in Allah. Qur'an 3/110.

Believing men and believing women are the protecting friends of each other: they enjoin right and they forbid wrong.
Qur`an 9/71.

In the same vein, Abu Huraira, a companion of the Prophet and narrator of many hadith used to say:

"You are the best people for the people, you tie them in chains and shackles and drag them off to paradise."


Also this 13 year Makki zamana thing is a load of rubbish as well. Islam has been established for over 1400 years. Nothing will be added, nothing will be taken away. Should we work on our iman for 13 years before establishing salaat, zakaat, sawm, hajj? What about those who have been in tabligh and working on their iman for never mind 13 years, but 30 years? When are they moving onto the madni zamana?

On an individual level tabligh and dawah without force is fine along with establishing the other tenets of the deen. But the Muslims need to be compelled to follow the laws of Allah just the same way that governments compel their citizens to follow their laws. Having a khalifah in this regard is very important.

Quote:
Prophet (saw) saying: ‘Whosoever takes off his hand from allegiance to Allah سبحانه وتعالى will meet Him سبحانه وتعالى on the Day of Resurrection without having any proof for him, and whoso dies whilst there was no Bay'ah (allegiance) on his neck (to a Khaleefah), he dies a death of Jahiliyyah (ignorance).'" [Muslim]





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#175 [Permalink] Posted on 6th December 2018 11:15
xs11ax wrote:
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100% agree. dont know where these people get this kinda silly stuff from about us being in makkah period. shall we all start drinking and committing zina? that wasnt banned in makkah. islam is complete so we accept it as it is, if theres parts we cant follow or do its due to our own weakness and lack of iman.

however there is one thing i do agree with when it comes to establishing islam and shariah law in muslim countries. i do beleive its best to slowly slowly introduce it whilst educating the people. you cant implement taliban style shariah or rule of umar رضي الله عنه overnight onto nations like pakistan, egypt or any muslim country. that is not to say we promote or encourage haraam but dont except people to be like sahaba overnight if islam is implemented.
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#176 [Permalink] Posted on 6th December 2018 12:25
Quote:
This is a false ideology perpetrated by the tablighis that Islam does not spread and does not get established by force. Islam is established by both enjoining good AND forbidding evil.

There is no such ideology being perpetrated by the Tablighis. It is a gross misrepresentation of facts. It's more of a matter of having the hikmat to realize which way works best with which kind of demographic that the tablighi elders have focused on. For more on that listen to this kaarguzari about Maulana Umar Palanpuri
Halalified YT Audio


Quote:
Also this 13 year Makki zamana thing is a load of rubbish as well. Islam has been established for over 1400 years. Nothing will be added, nothing will be taken away. Should we work on our iman for 13 years before establishing salaat, zakaat, sawm, hajj? What about those who have been in tabligh and working on their iman for never mind 13 years, but 30 years? When are they moving onto the madni zamana?

On this, the 13 years reference isn't meant to draw attention to a "zamana", it is meant to draw attention to the fact that establishing a community which is practicing deen completely like the sahaba did requires a lot of effort to change the hearts of the people. It is absolutely delusional to think that the sahaba were not Muslims, so if it took them 13 years to come to full practice, since we were born Muslims it would take us a lot less effort and time to come to the full practice of deen. Despite being born into Islam, we are so far away from deen that it would require a colossal effort to change the state of ummah. The effort of Tabligh has been around for about a 100 years. Not to mention other efforts of dawah like the Tanzeem and the khanqahs and madressah and yet if you look around you there are not many people about whom we can say that they will head to Jihad as soon as the ulema call for it. Infact, even amongst the practicing Muslims I have encountered people trying to rationalize away any form of activism that they may have to indulge in. The Muslims around us are worsening day by day and we think that we don't need any emaan-building effort? It's time to come back to reality.

As for the enforcement of deen, just look at how it turned out in Afghanistan. No one appreciates the Taliban more than I do. Akabireen from Pakistan have testified to the fact that when they visited them in the peak of their rule, it was like entering the era of Sahaba RA. Afghanistan produced more than 70% of opium of the world before that. The Taliban put a stop to that. They made men grow beards. They made women observe purdah. It was all absolutely wonderful the way they changed the country through force. But what happened when they were overthrown? It did not take people long to go back to their old ways. Women threw away their naqaabs, men reverted to their unshaven faces, cinemas opened up in the areas not being controlled by them. And the opium production is thriving more than ever now. Why is this the case? Because for all their wonderful enforcement of the law, the Taliban never considered actually changing the hearts of those people. They didn't consider that people needed to believe in those laws of Allah from their hearts instead of just being forced into them. That would have been true change. That is how the Sahaba were changed. The Sahaba didn't practice Islam fully because the Prophet SAW was amongst them and threatening them with dire consequences if they didn't. They did it because they genuinely fell in love with laws of Allah and the Prophet SAW of Allah. Can you say the same about today's Muslims? You say 13 years, I say it will take a lot more than just 13 years to get us pathetic Muslims to obey Allah out of love rather than compulsion. The Aasia incident has made it pretty clear to me as to where we stand as Muslims.

My point has never even been about abandoning the enforcement of law. My point is that we have to decide which will come first. Do we reform the society first? Or do we enforce laws on the society first? The point is that we don't even have the right people yet who could enforce those laws or even those people who would be willing to follow those laws. Once we correct that, enforcement wouldn't even be a matter of "forcing". It would be a matter of everything falling into its place on its own.
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#177 [Permalink] Posted on 6th December 2018 12:32

I have a lot of respect, love and heartfelt admiration for Tableeghi Jamaat but the fact is that they cannot even sort out their own house and internal differences so how will they lead the Ummah in any meaningful way?

  1. When Maulana Inaamul-Hasan Kandhalwi (RA) became Ameer there was a massive dispute and rift and many old workers and Ulama left
  2. Now, due to Maulana Saad (HA) they are split up and fighting each other

How can they reform the Ummah and take leadership when they cannot even sort out their own leadership issues (TWICE)!


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#178 [Permalink] Posted on 6th December 2018 12:42
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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Classic respone: Hadhrat Nuh (as) preached for 100s of years to his family :(

I hold the same love for the Tablighi's too, but this is where they lack my support - They don't give dawah to non-Muslims - They fear the things that become Wajib upon them (so I've been told) :( So many excuses and "words of wisdom" Its a shame really.

Anyway, this is not the topic of disscusion - Sorry :)
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#179 [Permalink] Posted on 6th December 2018 12:43
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I'm with you on that and that is kind of my point. After about a 100 years we are still at a point where one of the major movements of dawah is in doldrums, then how is the rest of the Ummah in a position to bring about any kind of change? Whether it is by force or through love? And BTW, my point has never been about TJ, it's about the effort of dawah. Which can be undertaken by anyone, the TJ does not have a patent on it. It's just that we need some sort of emaan-building effort before we can dream of overthrowing the secular powers ruling us.
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#180 [Permalink] Posted on 6th December 2018 17:49

fod1083 wrote:
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1. You like others are coming to the conclusions too quickly Ya Akhi.

2. You say like some other tablighis that if Taliban would have done this or that, people wouldn't have changed their ways when Taliban government was gone. However, you have overlooked the fact that from the very same people, there have been several thousand shuhada in the path of Allah who have supported Taliban and still they are supporting them today.

3. Who do you think is supporting Taliban today/ And isn't it true that the US is losing there despite of spending billions of dollars in an 18 year long war. How the Taliban are still surviving if people are not supporting them? The enemy acknowledges this that they control at least 75% area of the country at this very moment. So who is loser? Taliban for sure have not lost the war, it is still on going and coming to conclusions beforehand isn't rational. Give them credit for their courage and sacrifices.

4. As far as reforming the nation is concerned, how much time were they given? Only 4 troublesome years. Do you know how difficult was it for them to control and govern such a country with limited and insufficient resources? 

5. And when you say that if ulema give a call for jihad and khilafah no one will come. Have you forgotten the war with Soviet Union? Tabligh at that time was not spread to the extent it is in current times, yet millions of Muslims gave their lives for the noble cause. Have you also forgotten this 18 year old war? Did ghosts fight the kuffar instead of humans this time? People of high iman and sacrifice are present even in these troubled times.


6. Again, you missed the message in my long reply. Shariah is not about lashes or punishments. When state resources are used for educating the masses and preventing culprits from emerging then the speed of islah will increase tenfold. It is a very simple logic.


7. No one is denying the importance and benefit of Tabligh. However, you think that it is enough but I think it is not. This is the only point which I am making. Everyone will not be corrected with this effort alone. We need a true khilafah badly.


8. No one is denying the importance of iman building. However, evil environment is the enemy of iman no matter what you do, your iman is negatively affected. Without shariah this environment can't be changed and evil can't be stopped. Also, ahadith tell us very clearly, that not all will be participating in establishing khilafah. Only the people of certain qualities will. And not everyone is directly required to establish a khilafah. The dawah of khilafah is also a positive contribution in this. So everyone is required to play his/her part as much as is in his power and everyone will be questioned accordingly.

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