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#1 [Permalink] Posted on 13th November 2011 14:45
Assalamualaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu

In Ikhtilaf e Ummat Aur Sirat e Mustaqeem Hazrat Maulana Yusuf Ludhianvi Shaheed (Rahmatullahi aliahe) has wrote

www.central-mosque.com/fiqh/diffumm.pdf

Quote:
The interest and enthusiasm shown by yourself and your companions is praiseworthy and congratulatory. However, my advice is that you change this interest of yours from discussions and debates to learning and teaching Deen.

Devote your time and energies to the practical implementation of the Deen. You should make an effort to adopt the lifestyle of our beloved Nabi (sallAllaahu alaihi wasallam) and likewise turn the attention of others in that direction.

This suggestion of mine is based on two reasons. Discussions and debates hamper the ability of a person to carry out (good) actions. It is reported in Musnad-e-Ahmad, Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah and Mustadrak Haakim that Rasulullaah (sallAllaahu alaihi wasallam) said:

"That nation is not led astray after the guidance has been brought to them, except when they are given to arguments."

Hence no good abodes for that nation that indulges in arguments and debates. Another point is that by having too many discussions and debates, generally, people‟s enthusiasm to understand is plagued, and they are more desirous of having their views and opinions accepted. Also, that person who is not very well learned in the Shariah, tends to get carried away and does not pay heed and give due consideration to the limits of the Shariah. At times it may happen that a thing may be false and incorrect (in terms of the Shariah) and this person will endeavour to prove it to be true and Haqq. At times in such discussions a person may slur and revile an accepted servant of Allah Ta`ala‟s, hence blackening his Book of Deeds. A combination of all these factors, not only deprives one of the virtue of good actions, in fact, one‟s mental ability and tendency to accept the Haqq decreases gradually.

Therefore, it is my humble and sincere advice to all of you that each one of you follow and place your trust on that Aalim, whom you envisage and consider as being on Haqq, whom you deem is an Aalim-e-Muhaqqiq, and who is conveying the Message of Allaah Ta`ala and the Sunnah of Rasulullaah (sallAllaahu alaihi wasallam) to the people for the Pleasure of Allaah Ta`ala. Practice according to this person‟s advice and teachings and continue with your daily routine. Instead of all this vain discussions and debates, you should all rather spend your time more constructively and engage in Thikr, Tilaawat, Durood Shareef or some other beneficial Deeni work


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#2 [Permalink] Posted on 13th November 2011 14:48
I read Mufti Taqi Usmani did a bayan on argumentation and debates (however i am unaware how correct and accurate the transcript is)

www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?46550-quot-Argume...



alhaadi.org.za/articles/lessons-from-the-lives-of-the-pio...

Hadhrat Mufti Taqi Uthmani (Daamat Barakaatuhum) writes regarding their father Hadhrat Mufti Muhammad†Shafee` Sahib†(Rahmatullahi Alayh):

Quote:"Our honourable father had an inherent aversion for quarrels and disputes. As long as there was no genuine Shar`ee need he never engaged himself in any type of dispute in order to secure a personal right. I cannot recall the innumerable occasions when he forfeited his personal valuable rights merely for the sake of avoiding a dispute. He would very often quote the Hadeeth of Nabi (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) in relation to this:


أنا زعيم ببيت في وسط الجنة لمن ترك المراء و هو محق†
I guarantee a home in the middle of Jannah for that person who leaves out disputing despite being correct.

In the light of his practice on the above mentioned hadeeth a very amazing incident had transpired (in connection to a land that was allotted for Darul Uloom Karachi - to be mentioned in the next issue). Besides this, it is unknown as to how many people deceived him in his personal dealings. Many had tried to bring up cases against him. There were those who attempted to defame him through newspapers and the media. However, in the face of all these incidents he never resorted to the tactics that are nowadays adopted when replying to such propaganda. Instead, in most cases he relinquished his right and came out of the predicament.†He always avoided any type of confrontation and disputeirrespective†of whether it related to academic issues or a discussion with people of opposing ideologies.†He would quote the statement of one of the pious (perhaps it was Imaam Zuhri Rahmatullahi Alayh):

المراء يذهب بنور العلم

Disputes eliminate the noor (light) of knowledge."
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#3 [Permalink] Posted on 13th November 2011 14:48
I read that Imam Ghazali has wrote conditions for debate

Quote:
*" There are eight conditions of debate*
(1) The first condition is that where debate is for search of truth is one of farze kefayah duties. one who has not already fulfilled his part in duities of farze Ain n), should not engage himself in the debates, even for searching truth.
(2) The second condition is that one should not consider debates more important than Fard Kifayah duties. He commits sin who does other works, leaving aside a more important Farze Kifayah duty. He is like a man who does not give water to drink to people who are thirsty and facing death, even though he has got the power to do so, because he remains busy in giving lessons of cupping.
(3) The third condition which justifies debate is that the debater should have the ability and give decision on one's own responsibility. Without referring to the opinion of Imam Abu Hanifah or any other Imams. He who has not the ability of independent interpretation should not express his opinion but should refer to an Imam.
(4) The fourth conditions which justifies debate is that the subject for decision should be about actual cases that crop up. for example, the question of inheritance and not about future cases. The companions also held consultations as questions arose or were likely to arise in order to arrive at truth.
(5) The fifth condition debate should be held in private, in preference to open meetings in presence of noted people and in grandeur because privacy is more suitable for clear thinking and to examine what is right and what is wrong.
(6) The sixth condition is that the debater should like truth in the same spirit as seeking a lost cherished object. He should not mind whether the truth is found by oneself, or by him or his adversary.
(7) The seventh condition is that the debater should not prevent one's adversary from giving up one argument in favour of another and one illustration in favour of anather.
(8) The eighth condition is that the debate should be held with such a person, from whom benefit is derived and who is learned.



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#4 [Permalink] Posted on 13th November 2011 14:50
www.daruliftaa.com/question?txt_QuestionID=q-20524212

Mufti Muhammed ibn Adam has also stated
Quote:
Thirdly, when we look at the issues that are debated by the Barelwis and Deobandis, it becomes quite evident that some of them are minor and petty. You won't find any of the classical books of Aqidah discussing these issues. We need to overlook these petty issues and concentrate on the more important aspects of Islam. People are in need of real guidance, someone to help them strengthen their faith, teach them about the basics of Islam, not someone who debates whether one can say Ya Rasul Allah or otherwise.

Unfortunately, we have given extra significance to these issues than they deserve. These were issues that were associated to a person's individual connection with Allah Most High and His beloved Messenger (Allah bless him & give him peace), but we have made them into the basic tenets of Creed (aqidah) and issues that distinguish belief from disbelief and piety from impiety (fisq).

Once a brother phoned me and said: "I need to ask you a question concerning business and trade but first tell me are you from the Aqidah of Assalatu wassalamu alayka ya Rasul Allah? I said this is not a matter of Aqidah. It is similar to saying: "Do you have the Aqidah of Subhan Allah or Assalamu Alayka ayyuhan Nabi"! I explained to him that these are minute and petty issues and debating them should be avoided.

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#5 [Permalink] Posted on 13th November 2011 14:52
www.askimam.org/public/question_detail/17539

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At the outset it is important to understand that debating with someone who is obstinate on his/her ideologies and is unwilling to change if he is proven incorrect is a time wasting exercise and proves unbeneficial. It is our experience that those who are sincere on knowing the Haqq will understand the simplest of explanations. However, those who have made up their mind to remain on Baatil (falsehood) and do not have a sincere urge to learn the Haqq will make every possible objection to disprove the Haqq. At times simple ordinary Muslims become affected by their intellectual objections that they too begin doubting the Haqq (Allah protect us all). It is therefore wise for ordinary Muslims to refer such people to the Ulama and scholars who are equipped with knowledge and wisdom and who are in a better situation to either convince them of the Haqq or refute their baseless objections.
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#6 [Permalink] Posted on 13th November 2011 15:29
Hadhrat Shaykh Zakariyya Khandalwi Rahmatullahi Alaihe has written

aapbeti.blogspot.com/search?q=I+spoke+about+this+in+%27Al....
Quote:
I spoke about this in 'Al-Etidaal'. During the time when I was teaching Mishkat I once enumerated the number of differences of opinion concerning salaah consisting of four raka'ahs. I found more than two hundred differences of opinion. From that time onwards, I had no problem with the differences among the Ulama. It became a very easy thing for me to grasp. Therefore whenever I became aware of the differences of opinion among the Ulama, and saw people giving it a lot of importance, it caused me no distress. I always said: "Bhai, there will always be differences of opinion. Follow the view of whomsoever you find yourself having faith in his person. There is no need for debates, fights and arguments."
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#7 [Permalink] Posted on 13th November 2011 17:45
Defending the Madhaahib and Ulamaa is a duty if a person has the resources to do so.

The members here do not argue from their own understandings but they post works of Ulamaa to defend the true Aslaaf and A'immah.

Arguing like the Salafis in an offensive and disgraceful manner is not allowed on the site.

To conclude, we already do not allow debating and try to lock topics that will lead nowhere. If an accusation is made, we cannot lock it until someone has cleared it up.

If someone is posting a question, we refer them to the Q&A section.

All in all, muftisays.com forums has not gone against any advice of Shuyookh to encourage or promote debates by laymen.


Vote Options:
"Yes debates should be left to Ulama"
Agreed - and on muftisays.com, members don't take on debates with their own understandings or opinions. It is the works of Ulamaa

"Yes debates hamper the ability of a person to carry out (good) actions"
Agreed - The Salafis are known for mischief rather than good deeds

"Yes debates have many spiritual harms and the opposite side will probably stick with their opinion anyway"
This is never an excuse to not at the least refer them to the works of our Ulamaa who have already answered their accusations.

"No we need to fight the Batil and spread Haq"
Not without guidance from Ulamaa-e-Haq

"No debates help to change people"
It is not in our hands. Allah guides some, and some are left in the dark.

"No we have no choice how else will we combat the false propaganda by these sects on forums?"
Best choice is to refer to Ulamaa and ignore the rest of their madness and leave it to the Ulamaa.


My vote: "Keep it as it is as long as it is monitored."
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#8 [Permalink] Posted on 14th November 2011 01:08
Salaam
My comment is semi based on this topic as well as the the topic 'things to think about' but I can't post a reply on there.

I frequent this site very often to read posts that are very informative and help increase understanding, as well as members that inform of certain events and causes such as helping the homeless.

I don't live in an area that is very active in terms of deen and the community, so I appreciate all of the aforementioned.

I am a muslim that follows the hanafi madhab, so I visit those sites that concur to my belief not to say that I wouldn't go on a site that had other madhab rulings on there, but to me this makes more sense. So it baffles me as to why people who obviously don't agree with those who do taqleed, come on this site and make out as they are asking a question but in reality are berating those who do taqleed especially the hanafis.

I can honestly say I don't visit any website which is run by those that subscribe to the salafi ideology and start "asking questions".


I voted that these debates should be left to the ulama, because in my humble opinion it leads to a major fitna e.g the salafi hijack. The people who are creating fitna don't really want an answer, they just want to prove that you are wrong by pointing out holes in your theories, so you can bring 1000s of daleels but in my past experience it will be to no avail.

If someone has a genuine question they will go to the ulama, but my guess is they already tried that avenue and Allah knows best why didn't follow that path.

The only reason why I felt compelled to write a comment which has turned out to be a mini essay is because I think that it kinda kills the whole essence and its a little bit depressing that every other day someone or another is trying to knock your beliefs.

You could argue that I don't have to read it, however once I have opened a title and scanned through you kind of get involved even if you don't physically respond and in my opinion that where the fitna comes in.

I don't agree with the salaf ideology, in my past experience with family etc I have found them to be very argumentative, stubborn and to a certain point very ignorant people, but I don't make it my business so knock them and their beliefs and every oppurtunity I get.

To me my way and to you yours Wasalaam.
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#9 [Permalink] Posted on 14th November 2011 10:46
Guest wrote:

Salaam
My comment is semi based on this topic as well as the the topic 'things to think about' but I can't post a reply on there.


Please register, and InshaAllah, you will be able to post in other topics too. You can also ask to join other sections like "Members Research" etc and also add there if needed.

Jazakallah.
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#10 [Permalink] Posted on 14th November 2011 16:31
I did register, but I forgot my password so when I went to reset I couldn't remember my username! Any tips?
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#11 [Permalink] Posted on 14th November 2011 16:52
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#12 [Permalink] Posted on 11th December 2011 23:18
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#13 [Permalink] Posted on 12th December 2011 00:41
Allah commanded us to call and advise people in this Deen.

Many Muslims set off on this mission blindfolded, not realizing that the instructions are there in the Quran. In fact, in the very same verse where Allah commanded us to call and advise people in this Deen, Allah taught us how to do it. Read the following verse carefully:

"Invite (fi'l Amr - Allah is commanding) to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction and argue with them in a way that is best! " - Surah An-Nahl 16/125.

There is no need to philosophize. No need to talk in the flower gardens. It is right there, plain and simple for anyone who would take heed.

There in that Ayah are the three ingredients to apply when we disagree with someone. The same Allah that taught us to debate the truth, taught us how to do it:

1 - With Hikmah (wisdom)
2 - With good instruction, and
3 - To argue in a way that is best.

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#14 [Permalink] Posted on 12th December 2011 00:44
Imam Ahmad narrates with his chain of narrators leading to Ibn Abbas who said, "A man from Bani Saleem passed by a group of the Prophet's companions. (At that time of war) The man said 'as salamu alaykum' to them. The companions concluded that he only said 'as salamu alaykum' to them as a deception to save himself from being caught. They surrounded him and Malham ibn Juthaamah killed him. From that event Allah revealed the verse...

"O you who have believed, when you go forth (to fight) in the cause of Allah, investigate, and do not say to one who gives you (a greeting of peace), "You are not a believer," Aspiring for the goods of worldly life; for with Allah are many acquisitions. You (yourselves) were like that before; then Allah conferred His favor (i.e. guidance) upon you, so investigate. Indeed, Allah is ever with what you do, acquainted." - Surah AnNisa, 4/94. From Tafseer Ibn Katheer.

Yet today there are Muslims who dont answer to the Salaams of another Muslim because they dont follow their manhaj.
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#15 [Permalink] Posted on 12th December 2011 00:57
I make this mistake sometimes and apologise at the wrong time. And once again I will apologise for slightly diverting away from the aim of this thread. I do acept every thing that is here, but there is another side to the coin.


A Muslim should not have an apologetic stance to everything he is confronted with. There are times when the truth must be said, when there is no room for flattery.

When the Makhzoomi women - a women from an affluent family - stole, people approached Rasul Allah to have her punishment canceled. Rasul Allah became very angry and stood on the pulpit and announced, "By Allah, had Fatima the daughter of Muhammad stole I would have cut her hand off."

The truth must be stood up for.



There are other situations too, see below.
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