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Islamic Revolution in Turkey: Lessons

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#31 [Permalink] Posted on 20th April 2017 17:27
AishaZaynap wrote:
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There is also personal level aspect of this. My parents are pro secular. They already dont have very good views about Islam and they have bad views about the goverment. Now when they hear this which they heard and they also see the actions of the goverment what do they think? How they will accept my views when they see Erdogan staying silent and not doing anything about allegations. They will think see they cheated before they cheated again. How does this effect me plz take a guess
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#32 [Permalink] Posted on 20th April 2017 17:37
Maripat wrote:
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Also do not be very certain Kemalist soldiers can do anything.
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#33 [Permalink] Posted on 20th April 2017 18:10
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I remember a Scholar mentioning that this is the era of Jamal not Jalal...when it comes to Deen people are not willing to tolerate strong advice from their relatives and teachers let alone the strong behaviour of their leaders. People need to be approached with Love, Compassion justice and generosity.

I think the response of Erdogan since the failed coup last year has been too strong, he should have been a bit more magnanimous.

It is only a matter of time that many of his supporters turn against him...His enemies are working day and night with western backing to exploit the divisions.

Besides the kind of reforms he wants to bring in need atleast a 70% of the vote in a referendum.

51% vote in his favour that too, with dubious elections is not sufficient and will backfire.

I also believe the way the war in Syria has been conducted, the main aim or objective of the west and Russia has been to destabilise Turkey. A powerful Muslim country is something the Western countries can not tolerate the objective is to probably create a Civil War in Turkey.

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#34 [Permalink] Posted on 20th April 2017 18:18
Abdur Rahman ibn Awf wrote:
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This is why he needs to take opposition groups seriously and investigate these allegations before its too late. He needs to be smart now
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#35 [Permalink] Posted on 20th April 2017 21:02
Interesting read through this thread, but I have few things to say here

1) was it not Erdogan who played a smart economical game to bring Turkey's economy to the level which is now?

I understand one may question how can economical stance be related to political influence. But aren't they internally linked with each other? Since to ensure that the country gets out of low economy to what it is now, doesn't it requires a good understanding of political situation to maintain the influence?

Personally from my low understanding, keeping my emotions at side. I do take Erdogan to be a smart chess player, taking the recent example of how he used his increasing influence after the failed coup to win the refendum, pretty much shows he knew when to take the right steps to ensure a strong influence.

2) Secularists do have strong roots within the population, but is it stronger than the Islamic spirit?

Let's ponder how long the ottoman empire lasted, and how the fascist group accelerated the downfall as ottoman lost some territories. And then came Ataturk to power in Turkey and Britain in the Middle east. What I meant here, is the time span of existence of islamism more than secularism or vice versa? Does it not have any effects?

Certainly there is still personality worship of Ataturk, but there was also a time when it was at the similar level to Erdogan which is now, while islamist were at point which secularists are at.

Are the table turnings?

Apologize to OP for randomly coming in instead of answering the questions. But I thought to just some questions which I also find them interesting.

Speaking of whether India can become a Hindutva state or not after modi's rise. Just to write in a few words, I really would question those who think it can become one.

Does Hindu even have any political system like we have in islam to form a Hindutva state?

And if it runs on external system, not within their own religion, then that it would not be a Hindutva state would it? Could be a democratic, dictatorship, secular state or w/e but not Hindutva. Since banning cow meats or forcing certain religious view points is not a political system but a religious outcry which can be opposed.

I appreciated any disagreements, because I do not have complete knowledge of political background of Turkey as a whole, but just some which I have used to ask few questions.


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#36 [Permalink] Posted on 20th April 2017 21:50
Interesting wrote:
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Economy yes has influence in politics but but Erdogan may have been a good player but now he is not because;
1- He used neoliberal policies excessively
2- Turkey became import oriented which is dependent to other countries
3- Prices is high and unemployment rose. Turkey doesnt enjoy its good economic power like it use too.
4- The same Turkey who is having pride of the debt payment to IMF, could call IMF again if it cannot stabilize its economy( this is my own view. It can be wrong)
5- Exchange rate is increasing which is making Current Account Deficit worst.

However they are external reasons which im ignoring right now to mention them

Secondly with regards to which is secular population more than practising people. This question forgets one more category. That is practising people with secular ideology . When Ataturk came to power he took small steps but powerful reforms which effected large part of the population. He wiped nearly 600 year old Ottoman history culture and values.He tried to make sure secularism replaced Islam. However secularism couldnt replace Islam but unfortunately due to strong influence of secularism and limited sources acquiring Islam it produced one more category. These people practise Islam but have secular thought. This group is majority in Turkey. Until this group doesnt place themselves with seculars or with practising people it is hard to talk about which one has more influence in Turkey. Because seculars took the right from them to acquire deen and these peoples knowledge became limited. They became like hybrid of secularism and Islam. But actually this other group was created because of the failure of secularism. So it can be argued that Islams influence is stronger than secularism. I can say this with certainty that Islam is rising and this is not something seculars like thats why they glorify Ataturk. Its ideology war inshaallah Islam will become victorious

With regards to personal worship Ataturk is all different level. Turkish people yes love and adore Erdogan but they dont make statues of him like Ataturks(Ataturk has so many statues pictures as you know in Turkey) Erdogan became a symbol of Islam thats why he gets this prestige otherwise when he dies it wont be in the level of Ataturk. Ataturks works sayings is reproducing in Turkish schools whereas this is not the case with Erdogan
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#37 [Permalink] Posted on 21st April 2017 09:03
As salamu alaikum respected elders

The situation in Turkey is not going well and when i heard this news it did not made me happy at all. My source is pro secular. The author says it was gonna come out as yes anyway because if no votes are more then yes the goverment will cheat using increasing the votes more than participation (unfortunately i have heard with my own ears that during elections times the number of those who votes and participate are different. 5 extra people were registered to abonded house which a friend of my grandmother old house. She went to cancel them.) He futher continues if no votes are 60% then due to unstamped vote letters the High Council of Elections would have cancel them and new referandum will happen again. The author says the goverment payed 350 liras to people to use unstamped vote letters and give them stamped vote letters in return of above cost i mentioned. Now you may think this is pro secular source, you shouldnt trust them however im also among those who have doubts about this referandum the more Erdogan ignores or simply say its done, this increases my doubts even more. Im waiting the goverment to answer these questions which they didnt;

1-In the referandum night i saw those cheating videos which none of their sources are showing about it
2- The High Court of Election accepts unstamped vote letter which is against their law. They didnt accept unstamped vote letters fom Turk who live abroad
3- The High Court of Election rejected 3 oppositions parties allegations on cheating.
4- Pro goverment media shows these allegations as it came only from CHP which is wrong. Its not only them its CHP MHP (nationalist seculars) and Kurdish Party.
5- Erdogan only says the topic is over (meaning High Court of Election made decision its over)
6- The number of those who participated are different than the number who voted. They are talking about 2.5 million extra votes in favour of Yes (Sputnik claimed all those unstamped vote letters result came as Yes)
7- if you havent cheated then why are you silence about it.

If this kind thing were to happen in Britian i doubt people will stay silent about it

Let me say one more thing you can have so many enemies but if your enemies are accusing you with cheating you have to do something about it. Erbakan(first man to find Islamic party in Turkey) had so many enemies but you cannot find secular people telling Erbakan cheating during elections.


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#38 [Permalink] Posted on 21st April 2017 11:09

AishaZaynap wrote:
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Much of this is coming from Russia and they have a vested interest in destabilising Turkey because Turkey stands for regime change in Syria.

Sputnik, RT and PressTV are propaganda mouthpieces for their Governments (just like BBC and CCN are for their Governments).

At the same time we accept Erdogan probably did try to cheat to win.

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#39 [Permalink] Posted on 21st April 2017 12:11
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Try or did? Would you have said 'try to cheat' to British High Council of election accepting unstamped(illegal) vote letters?

Erdogan is no different.
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#40 [Permalink] Posted on 21st April 2017 12:20
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#41 [Permalink] Posted on 21st April 2017 12:30
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She renewed the election yes? Can you say this in Turkey ?there is a big scandal nobody does anything about it, Erdogan sits in silent
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#42 [Permalink] Posted on 21st April 2017 12:36
Unfortunately i cannot get happy to the referandum because there high possibility that cheating involved. Officals staying silent is a sign that they have been a part of this. SHAME
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#43 [Permalink] Posted on 21st April 2017 16:37
Respected elders the reason why i say my above post is because Erdogan is sitting and not saying anything, there is a serious scandal. His opponents are calling for another referandum he just say its over. I dont say Erdogan cheated due to Sputnik or pro secular sources. I just look at his behaviour from multiple newspapers including his media as well. This is why i said this. Otherwise i dont write here with only secular sources
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#44 [Permalink] Posted on 28th April 2017 16:10
I really miss Dr Abu Tamim.
I suppose he would have shared my task by dissecting the following piece.

The crisis of democracy in Turkey and Egypt

April 28, 2017, 12:10 pm

Blogger :Parvez Ahmed


A 2012 survey by the Pew Research Center found that 71 percent of people in Turkey and 67 percent in Egypt prefer a democratic form of government. And yet when it came time to vote, people used the ballot box to favor authoritarian leaders – Abdel Fattah el-Sissi in Egypt and Recep Tayyip Erdogan in Turkey.

Democracy is not just the will of the majority, it is also the art of choosing leaders who will work to uphold personal freedoms, rule of law, common good, and respect for minority rights. As an American in the age of Trump, I am perhaps not in any position to lecture Egyptians or Turks. Still, we need a conversation on what it truly means to be democratic.

Although no universal definition exists for democracy, there are agreed upon parameters that define a proper democratic system. Fair elections is a necessary but not a sufficient condition. A proper democracy needs effective checks and balances, full political participation of women and minorities, freedom of the press, civil liberties for all citizens, and an independent judiciary. All of these factors combined determine the health of a democracy. The UK-based Economist produces a Democracy Index that amalgamates these factors and uses experts to rank countries on their Democracy Index.

Only 19 out of 167 countries surveyed live in full democracies, where basic political freedoms and civil liberties are respected, judiciary is independent and the press is free. In addition, there is an effective system of checks and balances. In 2016, the US for the first time was bumped down to “Flawed Democracy” status, partly because it is beset with low levels of political participation and gridlock in Washington, even though one party effectively controls all branches of government.

Egypt clocked in at 133 as an “authoritarian” regime, and Turkey at 97 as a “hybrid” regime. The highest ranked Muslim majority country is Malaysia, at 65.

For many decades, Islamist political parties have complained that the poor state of democracy in their countries is the result of secular leadership, often with Western backing, exercising authoritarian grip. To a certain extent this is true. The Egypt of both Hosni Mubarak and Sissi is a poster child for this. But time and again when Islamists have gained control, they have fared no better. Turkey’s Erdogan is a prime example now, just as Muslim Brotherhood’s Mohammed Morsi was a few years ago.

Sissi and Erdogan came to power via vastly different routes. While Sissi’s election was marred by poor voter turnout and many complaints of voter irregularities, Erdogan won his elections fairly. Speaking on the state of Egyptian democracy, Senator Patrick Leahy said, “Egypt today, where political parties are banned and their leaders imprisoned, makes a mockery of the most fundamental principles of democracy.” For his part, Erdogan essentially divided the world into two camps, those with him and those against him. He went on to dismiss democracy and freedom as having “absolutely no value” and called for journalists, lawyers and politicians to be prosecuted as terrorists.

The latest round of voting in Turkey that gave Erdogan absolute powers, far exceeding that of an American president, is an obvious cause for concern, given that Turkey is a NATO ally and an important partner in the region. After a narrow 51-49 vote in Erdogan’s favor, the validity of the referendum has been called into question as the European Commission has asked for an investigation into alleged voting irregularities.

And yet on my social media feed, the congratulatory messages from some American Muslim leaders celebrating Erdogan’s referendum victory is perplexing. It is one thing for Turks, deprived of a free press, failing to recognize the dangers of Erdogan’s power grab. But for Muslim leaders in America, enjoying the fruits of a free media and freedom of assembly, to ignore the dangers of an authoritarian power grab is an astonishing abdication of responsibility. The Quran admonishes: “You who believe, uphold justice and bear witness to God, even if it is against yourselves, your parents, or your close relatives… if you distort or neglect justice, God is fully aware of what you do.” (4:135).



Parvez Ahmed is a Fellow of Shalom Hartman Institute’s Muslim Leadership Initiative and Professor of Finance at the University of North Florida.

Source : TOI
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#45 [Permalink] Posted on 28th April 2017 17:59
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The fact this Parvez Ahmed is an agent for the rabid Zionist Shalom Hartman Institute....Speaks for itself.

Considering that every well known Scholar from Shaykh Omer Suleiman to Yasir Qadhi and every major muslim Organisation in America have criticised those who have participated in the Muslim Pro-Zionist Intiative. Yet these indviduals like Parvez Ahmed have continued to participate.

I highly doubt your words and dissections will have any impact with him..!



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