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#16 [Permalink] Posted on 1st February 2019 16:43
abu mohammed wrote:
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But you are referring to what they say as proof.

I apologize if I have offended you in any way but I tried to be very civil in my language. I don't know what's wrong with my language. Can you point it out precisely.

PS! I have edited the post as requested.
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#17 [Permalink] Posted on 1st February 2019 16:55
Correct the wording in this post please. Maybe some thing along the lines of dung :)
sipraomer wrote:
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#18 [Permalink] Posted on 1st February 2019 17:33
abu mohammed wrote:
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Oh! Sorry for that. Changed...
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#19 [Permalink] Posted on 2nd February 2019 04:26
super-glue wrote:
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When you say that AQ doesn't exist then I am obliged to ask these questions. How can you say that AQ doesn't exist when very prominent figures are or have been part of it.

If you say that AQ doesn't exist then it automatically means that people related to it are also fake. They also don't exist.
So did Shaykh Anwar Awlaki Rh really exist? Did Azzam Amreeki really exist? Were both of them US agents as well? Or were they independent entities?

If you don't want to answer then it's your choice.

Quote:
and no one actually showed any evidence of their claim if they admitted it was them or their group


No I showed the claim of Azzam Amreeki and the Maulana. You still didn't respond about the Azzam Amreeki guy who was saying in very plain English that they did it. Denying the claim on the basis of no aeroplane theory is another thing but not being able to show the claim is a totally different thing.
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#20 [Permalink] Posted on 2nd February 2019 12:06
super-glue wrote:
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By pointless, I'm referring to this particular debate between you and Sipraomer, not the topic itself. Pointless is the way you're going about it. It's bound to keep going around in circles.

That's because 10 pages on, you still haven't adequately addressed the major stumbling block Sipraomer and countless others have in accepting the technical evidence you're throwing at them. You can come up with another mountain, or a few more mountains of technical evidence from nonmuslims, but it'll still not convince even sincere brothers until you address what they see is a major hole in your storyline.

Did you know that there was a whole group of Muslims who genuinely thought that they were al-Qaeda? Did you know that there's a whole group of these al-Qaeda members who took asylum in Afghanistan? Did you know that the Taliban themselves used to refer to these mostly Arab brothers as al-Qaeda? Did you know that many many Ulama from Pakistan and other countries met these al-Qaeda Muslims in the flesh when they went to visit Afghanistan at the time, and even afterwards, and they reported their meeting back to their throng? Did you know that all of these al-Qaeda members, or at least most of them especially their leaders, actually believed that they and their leader were responsible for 9/11? Did you know that these Muslims who believed that they are part of a group called al-Qaeda were not all cartoon characters but were actually real people whom many Ulama and others had met? Etc.

So when you don't bother address what others (not me) see as a major hole in your storyline, and fail to come up with a single plausible explanation for how a whole group of Muslims, many of them sincere though seriously misguided, could be convinced they and their leader did it, and instead you consign them into non-existence, then you'll keep going around in circles.

To Sipraomer, and countless others, the word of all these Muslims including Ulama who met them directly to verify their existence and claims, is real evidence itself. They'd be more willing to believe in miracles and supernatural feats which they've read many accounts of in the Soviet jihad, than all the mountains of technical evidence from kuffar you keep throwing at them.

The fact is, on the contrary, the contradicting evidences - yours and your opponent's here - make perfect sense. A whole group of Muslims carrying out a terrorist attack, or being convinced that they are somehow responsible, and America masterminding it are not mutually exclusive at all. In fact, it's the overwhelming norm. America do it all the time, and have done so for decades. They are masters of this art.

My previous post tried to put forward a rough sequence of events that demonstrate this, but you just need to flesh it out in more detail, for the benefit of Sipraomer and many others. Coming up with a blunt, "Hey, al-Qaeda don't really exist, they were all cartoon characters running about in Afghanistan whom the Taliban gave asylum to" won't really cut the mustard but will instead put them off all the genuinely compelling points you make.
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#21 [Permalink] Posted on 2nd February 2019 13:05
Ridwaan wrote:
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1. I've repeatedly said to start threads for unrelated topics. But if he feels it's related then I feel obliged to continue because it is important to the questioner who has doubts about my post and this important topic.
2. Literally my last post mentioned it again.
super-glue wrote:
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3. Most importantly I am very patient because the non-Muslims will have all the same questions if not worse. Sipraomer is raising questions as he has doubts now why would I ignore that? Not only do I learn more from his questions it also helps me strengthen the case. So if this went on for another 100 pages I'd gladly continue with him. If anyone else has doubts I would look into that as well. I'm not going to push him away because you think a back and forth civilised debate is useless. Yes he has a tendency to take offence to things I'm not even saying but even then I'm clearing up whatever is needed to be cleared up. I've come across the most vile, spiteful angry Kuffar in recent years that I find almost everything you lots are fighting over daily to not just be useless but really stupid. And this is why I'll remain stuck to this like super glue no matter how much you try to justify its uselessness.
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#22 [Permalink] Posted on 2nd February 2019 13:21
sipraomer wrote:
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Quote:
When you say that AQ doesn't exist then I am obliged to ask these questions. How can you say that AQ doesn't exist when very prominent figures are or have been part of it.


Prominent figures in general or to do with 9/11 according to you? Because if it's in general then that really is another topic altogether. If it's related to 9/11 then haven't we already established there's literally no proof of any claim from OBL or anyone else associated with this so called "AQ".

Quote:
If you say that AQ doesn't exist then it automatically means that people related to it are also fake. They also don't exist.
So did Shaykh Anwar Awlaki Rh really exist? Did Azzam Amreeki really exist? Were both of them US agents as well? Or were they independent entities?


When I say "Al Qaida" doesn't exist, I am talking about the Al Qaida that America invented as an enemy to create fear in America and go to war. Then there's the aftermath with people leaving UK/America to join this made up AQ. ISIS is basically Al Qaida Version 2.0. I have read a lot and to be frank there's too many variants and claims on all sides except for the one single fact that America created this bogeyman group Al Qaida. Once that is established, nothing else matters.

And your analogy is very flawed. That's like saying because there were no planes on 9/11 the twin towers didn't exist either.

Quote:
If you don't want to answer then it's your choice.

Bro I am answering, why are you always on the fence?

sipraomer wrote:
Quote:
and no one actually showed any evidence of their claim if they admitted it was them or their group

No I showed the claim of Azzam Amreeki and the Maulana. You still didn't respond about the Azzam Amreeki guy who was saying in very plain English that they did it. Denying the claim on the basis of no aeroplane theory is another thing but not being able to show the claim is a totally different thing.

Yes this is two different things which is why I said this is unrelated and you are free to start a new thread for it. As for Azzam "AMREEKI" I already said: "I will provide more on these two when I look into it properly because without 2+ sources I don't take anything." - see the post that you didn't reply to except with more questions.. And why do you say I skip posts when you're actually doing that? Are you sincere or not?

Check this post and either reply if you disagree or do I accept that you agree with everything?
www.muftisays.com/forums/94-propaganda-lies-hoax/12421-th...


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#23 [Permalink] Posted on 2nd February 2019 13:47
Ridwaan wrote:
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As you tend to post with ridicule and exaggeration I'll try to respond in your language

Quote:
That's because 10 pages on, you still haven't adequately addressed the major stumbling block Sipraomer and countless others have in accepting the technical evidence you're throwing at them. You can come up with another mountain, or a few more mountains of technical evidence from nonmuslims, but it'll still not convince even sincere brothers until you address what they see is a major hole in your storyline.


If anything doesn't your post derail everything more and aren't you the one building a mountain on top of the existing mountain? Do you put out fires by peeing on it?

Quote:
Did you know that there was a whole group of Muslims who genuinely thought.............


"Believing" is another matter. It doesn't change the fact that what they're deluded by doesn't actually exist. Look at the Darwinians; they believe so much fairy tale as scientific fact based on evidence that has NEVER EXISTED. The geological column doesn't exist anywhere in the world yet they base their entire atheist faith on it. Because they believe it in such mass numbers in respected universities around the world does that mean this geological column magically exists now? So if AQ exists based on "believing" they're on the right path because of those falsely associated with it then that would mean the geological column exists as well and that means the earth really is 4.6 billion years old and that means we really did come from a rock so why should I listen to anything you say since you came from a rock?

Quote:
So when you don't bother address what others (not me) see as a major hole in your storyline, and fail to come up with a single plausible explanation for how a whole group of Muslims, many of them sincere though seriously misguided, could be convinced they and their leader did it, and instead you consign them into non-existence, then you'll keep going around in circles.


That's another subject. Another thread should be created for that. Why is that so difficult for you to grasp?

Your conclusions are wild, similar to sipraomer's, and you're saying he's not getting my point? Please find me one post were I said believers in AQ don't exist then you can ramble on further.

Quote:
Coming up with a blunt, "Hey, al-Qaeda don't really exist, they were all cartoon characters running about in Afghanistan whom the Taliban gave asylum to" won't really cut the mustard but will instead put them off all the genuinely compelling points you make.


You've quoted that as if I'm saying this. Tell me something, do you think the murder of 3000 innocent lives followed by over a million Muslims is a cartoon joke? Or maybe you're trying a bit too hard to be funny? if you want to make a point make it, don't quote things I'm not saying and don't disrespect clowns by trying to imitate them.
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#24 [Permalink] Posted on 2nd February 2019 21:00
السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته

Quote:
Did you know that the Taliban themselves used to refer to these mostly Arab brothers as al-Qaeda?


Are you sure about that? How do you know this?
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#25 [Permalink] Posted on 4th February 2019 10:56
xs11ax wrote:
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It was open knowledge. Regardless of fact that America created al-Qaeda, there was a whole group of men who took on that label. You can't suddenly say they didn't exist at the time. These were not invisible men.

The equivalent today is ISIS. ISIS is another American creation. But just because America created them and a whole lot of brothers exist who believe that they're ISIS, it would be nonsensical to say that ISIS doesn't really exist. Those brothers ARE ISIS even though they are only puppets manipulated unwittingly within a larger game. If you try to tell a brother who you're trying to convince about these conspiracy theories that ISIS doesn't really exist then it would be no surprise if he starts thinking that there's serious holes in your theories.

OBL's group of men were not the only Arab group to have their training camp in Afghanistan. Other Salafis like Abu Musab Suri and Zarqawi opened or tried to open their own training camps. They took on names of their own but would refer to OBL's group as al-Qaeda. Some of the official statements released by Taliban leaders would also refer to them as al-Qaeda. Mullah Zaeef's statement referring to them as al-Qaeda has already been quoted somewhere in the other thread. Here is a statement of another leader of Taliban, Mullah Mutawakkil:

“At the time when that story [9–11] happened, I was in Kabul. I contacted Mullah Mohammad Omar in Kandahar immediately asking what should we do. He told me, ‘condemn it. Condemn this action as harshly and strongly as you can.’ And I think the Taliban government was one of the first governments who condemned this action, and besides condemning it they also denied their involvement and they said that the killing of innocents wherever they are is not allowed (haram). Al-Qaeda at that time never said ‘we did it.’ If they did say something, then they said something like ‘whoever did that thing, we think it’s a good thing.’ They appreciated it. That’s a big difference, that one side [the Taliban] condemned it, but the other side, al-Qaeda, appreciated it.”

A thorough search of Taliban and Salafi literature, official statements, etc. would reveal many more examples.

@Sipraomer, did you read my last two posts? If there's anything unclear there, let me know.
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#26 [Permalink] Posted on 4th February 2019 22:15
السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته

I'm trying to think when I first heard the name al Qaeda. I'm not sure if it was before or after 9/11. Even if it was before 9/11 I don't think it was that much before. When did you guys hear of al Qaeda?
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#27 [Permalink] Posted on 5th February 2019 12:30
Reality Check: The U.S. Government Created Al Qaeda?

Ben Swann Reality Check takes a look at how the United States government created Al Qaeda and yet in some countries is still fighting them while in others is supporting them.
Halalified YouTube Audio

www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcZKso_Z6M8#t=70 Clip starts from 70 seconds onwards
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#28 [Permalink] Posted on 5th February 2019 12:50
xs11ax wrote:
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After 9/11.
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