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Maria al-Qibtiyya, abu mohammed
#16 [Permalink] Posted on 26th August 2014 14:22
As-salam-u-'Alaykum, brother, I have read Mufti A S Desai's criticism on SANHA, he is a reliable scholar from SA and SANHA is from SA, hence the doubts. I am following the advise of the Ulama, that refraining from non-khamr alcohol ingredients is taqwa, Alhamdulillah. Hence the certification is not useful for me to judge, the answers of my question on the chocolate spreads, as most probably, if the non-khamr alcohol is used, it would be certified, which I wouldn't like to consume.

Kindly understand, I am confused and expressing my opinions, not asking others to disregard SANHA, because my opinion is based on caution in view of conflicting opinions of reliable scholars.

If I would disregard Jamia Binoria, why would I share, Mufti Sheheryar's reply.

Wassalam
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#17 [Permalink] Posted on 26th August 2014 16:13

Anonymous wrote:
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Asslamo Allaikum Brother, 

You have been affected by the Politics of South Africa.

Hazrat Shaykh (Mufti) A. S. Desai (HA) has some personal issues with certain Ulama which he voices on every oppurtunity, every day and repeatedly.

  1. I just learned that there is UUCSA (United Ulama Council of South Africa) which is composed of many Ulama bodies etc.
  2. Then there is another UUCSA which appears to be run by supporters of Hazrat Shaykh (Mufti) A. S. Desai (HA)

This second UUCSA issued an apology for moon sighting and cuased confusion!

Who is right and who is wrong (who knows!)

  • But Hazrat Shaykh (Mufti) A. S. Desai (HA) [as a single Alim] is casting doubt on the honesty and integirty of many Ulamah as part of SANHA, MJC etc
  • Binori Town (Karachi) have stayed independent and from Fiqh perspective endorsed SANHA

I suggest that you also stay out of politics. If the Ulama of South Africa (in large numbers) give an opinion on SANHA (then that's fine) but so far your research is mistaken!

SANHA is backed by other Ulama. If Darul-uloom Binori Town are backing them then do you think you know more about South Africa???

 

 

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#18 [Permalink] Posted on 26th August 2014 17:02
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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What do you know about IFANCA? JazakAllahu khairan.

Regardless of SA politics, my question for Vanillin powder and Vanilla essence(Pakistani made) remains.

Wassalam.
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#19 [Permalink] Posted on 26th August 2014 19:13
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ibn Ismail wrote:
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السلام عليكم

I did some googling and found out the following information about Vanilla and its products from wikipedia and other websites.

Vanilla flavour is extracted from the Vanilla bean.

Vanilla bean:


Vanilla flavour is used in 4 forms.
1. Directly from the Vanilla bean
2. Vanilla extract
3. Vanilla essence
4. Vanillin

1. Directly from the Vanilla bean
The Vanilla bean is sliced through the middle and the seeds are scraped and used directly as flavouring. This is obviously halaal.


2. Vanilla extract
The Vanilla flavour is extracted from the Vanilla bean by soaking it in a medium which will extract the flavor of Vanilla and will impart to the medium.

a. Usually the Vanilla bean is soaked in alcohol like vodka mixed with water for a few months to extract the flavor. This kind of Vanilla extract would definitely be haraam.

b. Instead of alcohol glycerin can be used to extract the Vanilla flavor from the Vanilla beans. But even here it has to be vegetable derived glycerin not animal glycerin for it to be halaal. Not sure if Vanilla extract using glycerin is available commercially. Even if it is available commercially, I read somewhere that they might use alcohol to extract first.

3. Vanilla essence and 4.Vanillin

I have put both 3 & 4 together for the ease of explanation. Even though Vanilla extract and Vanilla essence are terms which are used interchangeably, they both are different.

Vanilla essence can be two things:
a. Either highly concentrated from Natural Vanilla extract
b. Or a synthetic imitation of Natural Vanilla extract.

Type (a) Vanilla essence will have to be avoided due to the same issues with Vanilla essence. But it seems this type of Vanilla essence is rare.

Type (b) is a synthetic preparation of Vanilla flavor using the chemical called Vanillin.

Natural Vanilla extract contains Vanillin and many other compounds. But the Major contributor of the distinct Vanilla flavor is from the chemical Vanillin. Since natural Vanilla production is much lesser than the its demand, Vanillin is synthesized by other methods and used to make Vanilla essence or directly used as Vanillin as flavouring agent in chocolate and bakery products.

Synthesis of Vanillin.

Vanillin was first synthesised from eugenol found in clove oil.
Later from lignin.
Since 1970's till today it is 'mostly' produced synthetically from a petrochemical raw material called guaiacol

The Process:
Guaiacol reacts with glyoxylic acid by electrophilic aromatic substitution.
The resulting vanillylmandelic acid is then converted to 4-Hydroxy-3-methoxyphenylglyoxylic acid
and then to vanillin by oxidative decarboxylation.


This process seems to be a chemical reaction without the help of any alcohol. But I do not know the details of this process. But the Vanillin produced by this method seems to be halaal.

Beginning in 2000 a biosynthetic vanillin prepared by the action of microorganisms on ferulic acid extracted from rice bran is in market.

So currently there are 3 methods of producing Vanillin:
a. lignin
b. guaiacol
c. ferulic acid from rice bran

All of them seems to be chemical reactions without the involvement of alcohol, but one will have to dwell deep into their industrial process to be sure.

Conclusion.
1. Even though both are distinct the terms Vanilla extract and Vanilla essence are interchangeably used commonly.
2. Natural Vanilla flavor (extract or essence) is most likely haraam since alcohol is used for its extraction.
3. Synthetic Vanilla essence contains the chemical Vanillin which is synthetically made.
4. Synthetic Vanillin seems to be halaal since the process of its synthesis is devoid of alcohol. But only by in-depth study of the procedure one can be 100% sure.

Wallahu Alam.


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#20 [Permalink] Posted on 27th August 2014 02:42
umar123 wrote:
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JazakAllahu khairan for, using your valuable time and effort on a thorough research.

But if you can, do share some info on Vanillin powder, insha'Allah.

Wassalam.
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#21 [Permalink] Posted on 27th August 2014 08:34
ibn Ismail wrote:
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There seems to be Powders in 2 labels:

1. Vanillin powder
2. Vanilla powder

1. Vanillin powder:
It is just the artificially produced vanillin chemical in powder form.

2. Vanilla powder:
There seems to be 3 ways of producing Vanilla powders.

a. Drying the Vanilla beans and then powdering it. (definitely halaal)
b. Using the Vanilla extract(alcohol based) which is infused into a powder base. (haraam)
c. Using artificial Vanilllin instead of vanilla extract. (halaal)

It is kinda difficult to differentiate which process is used unless the manufacturer mentions it.

Wallahu alam.
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#22 [Permalink] Posted on 27th August 2014 12:54

ibn Ismail wrote:
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So extending your logic let us summarise some important points:

  1. In this post you quoted a Barelwee based Canadian organisation and placed your trust in them
  2. In this post you dismissed a Deobandi (backed) South African Organisation
  3. In this post you stated that you live in Pakistan
  4. In this post you stated that your query is related to a product manufactured in Pakistan
  5. You asked your question on a forum frequented by mostly British, South African, Canadian and American people asking about a Product in Pakistan
  6. The response is given by an Indian Doctor from Wikipedia

?

  • If the product in Pakistan is labelled to be certified by SANHA then it’s a Deobandi (backed) organisation and that closes the issue for you and you are severally misinformed about politics in South Africa to be expressing doubts! Its your personal action but what I find bizarre is the next bit..
  • The manufacturing process in each country and ingredients in different so a South African, Canadian, British, American, Indian CANNOT answer the question for a product in your country and this is even more strange since you seem to dismissing SANHA but agreeing to accept a response from a forum from people whom you have never met and cannot verify.

???

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#23 [Permalink] Posted on 27th August 2014 17:26
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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As-salam-u-'Alaykum,
1. JazakAllahu khairan for informing me that the site is Barelwi. But it seems promising. Even brother samah, told he uses it.

2.Brother, as told, before, I have doubts because of 2 opposite views but from authentic and reputable people. Isn't that something manifestly confusing?.

3.The Ulama who endorse SANHA from SA, also state regarding vanilla, that it is taqwa to refrain from it. The UK food guide site, states the name of a Mufti from Pakistan too, and on consulting a local Alim, he also stated about taqwa from refraining.
But on the internet, wherever I read, Vanillin, is artificially produced and since I did not find as extensive info, on Vanillin powder I consulted here. Nor am I aware much about vanilla essences.

Wassalam.
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#24 [Permalink] Posted on 27th August 2014 17:28

ibn Ismail wrote:
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How about the simple matter of consulting your local Ulama instead of Canadians, South Africans, Americans, Indians and British Muslims for a Fatwa on a product which is native to your country?

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#25 [Permalink] Posted on 27th August 2014 17:35
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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I did brother, but they are not 100% sure, and deem it halaal, as it can't be called haraam on basis of uncertainty.

Quoting an answer from, Mufti Sheheryar
sahab:
As-salam-u-'Alaykum, mufti sahab,

What is your stance on the halaal status of Vanilla flavorings?As alcohol is used in some of the flavorings.

The local Candi biscuits by LU, and Prince biscuits, are they halaal?

JazakAllahu khairan

Its halal as the fatwa is given by all the dar ul iftas like dar ul uloom and banori town e.t.c

I read there are differences of opinion on Vanilla, as some of the conditions are that the alcohol mustn't be used in vain(lahw), and it should be non-khamr. Is the fatwa based on that?

JazakAllahu khairan.

Actualy there is nothing cnfrmed and verified about these things tht is there alcohol in it or not thts why our ulama said tht its halal bcz we cnt give fatwa of haram without verification but still if someone leave these things bcz of these doubts thts taqwa but not fatwa.

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#26 [Permalink] Posted on 27th August 2014 18:01

ibn Ismail wrote:
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I am Sorry but are you saying that Ulamah are giving a Fatwa of something being Halal when they are not "Sure"?

Is this right or maybe your standards are too high and you think that the Ulama are not matching your standards of Taqwa?

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#27 [Permalink] Posted on 27th August 2014 18:59
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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According to Mufti Sheheryar Younus, fatwa regarding vanilla flavourings being haram can't be given without verification. Though, refrain from using it would be taqwa.

What's the problem?
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#28 [Permalink] Posted on 27th August 2014 19:32

ibn Ismail wrote:
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Your query was sent to Shaykh (Mufti) Yusuf Abdur-Razaq Iskander Saheb (HA) who is the head of Halal Authority of Pakistan. He is the son of Shaykh (Dr) Abdur-Razaq Iskander (Principle of Binori Town, Karachi) and Mufti Saheb (HA) replied (translated into English):

Much of Vanilla is imported into Pakistan. Please reply specifically with the brand name and product details for a response.

I am Sorry if I have missed your response (earlier) but please respond now with product details so a reply text can be sent to Mufti Saheb.

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#29 [Permalink] Posted on 27th August 2014 20:07
What is the name of the halal authority of Pakistan?
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#30 [Permalink] Posted on 27th August 2014 21:06

muslim11 wrote:
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I posted the question to Khatm-e-Nabuwwat Whatsgroup name and Mufti Saheb (HA)'s cell number and details were given to me from Karachi.

They asked the question on my behalf and all the information which was given is in the post.


 

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