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BEER with 0.0% Alcohol HARAM

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#31 [Permalink] Posted on 11th January 2018 16:50

Asaaghir wrote:
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Have you ever eaten a Nan in your life?

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#32 [Permalink] Posted on 11th January 2018 16:55
Muadh_Khan wrote:
Have you ever eaten a Nan in your life?

No, where I come from that would be haram brother. Not sure about Americans ;)
My nan can be sweet, but no I haven't eaten a grandmother.
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#33 [Permalink] Posted on 11th January 2018 16:58

Asaaghir wrote:
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Don't worry...Your Shaykh doesn't answer this question either!

 

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#34 [Permalink] Posted on 11th January 2018 17:04
You mean NAAN?

Why couldn't you have been more clear :) or you did have one too many :p
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#35 [Permalink] Posted on 11th January 2018 17:24
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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if you are on about the yeast in the naan and how it can turn into alcohol, then yes, I do know of that and it's ruling.

Maybe you've assumed that I'm on the guests side. Well, I'm not. I'm in agreement with what you and abu m have been saying. I don't like the idea of trying to monopolise an industry and make it look halal. Another reason why I can't stand those Muslim nations who have allowed this to happen and allowed the market of alcohol free beers to flourish.

I remember a drink called Ben & Shaws American Cream Soda in the late 90's.

As much as we liked Cream Soda, we hated the idea that they tried to make the can look like a beer can. We would go round insulting those who drank it because they were trying to imitate the beer drinkers. You know what, they would do it on purpose to fool their teachers and ustads.......that's what these drinks are leading to, straight into the lizards hole. So if people start drinking these 0% drinks, eventually they will drink. That's what I meant by the barbershop joke :(

Hope you see where I'm coming from :)
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#36 [Permalink] Posted on 11th January 2018 17:43
Asaaghir wrote:
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He might of had one naan too many.
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#37 [Permalink] Posted on 12th January 2018 10:54
abu mohammed wrote:
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Ginger beer was just one example. I'm referring to all non-alcoholic beers not from dates, grapes or barley. Here's an example of a Ginger beer:

Please can you help us with the following query:
There is a product called Bundaberg Ginger Beer. It’s ingredients are:

Ingredients: Carbonated water, cane sugar, ginger root, natural flavours, acid (citric acid), yeast, preservatives (202, 211), antioxidant (asccorbic acid).

What the company say regarding Alcohol in their products:
Do Bundaberg Brewed Drinks Products contain alcohol?
All Bundaberg Brewed Drinks naturally brewed products contain minute residual traces of alcohol. Our manufacturing process uses natural yeast which feed on sugars and ferments the ‘brew’ to be used as a base for our beverages. Alcohol is a by-product of this fermentation process. Before we fill the product into bottles we heat the brew to above 70 degrees C. to kill the yeast, halt the fermentation process, and remove the alcohol. After this heating process all of our products have a residual alcohol level of less than 0.5%. It is this manufacturing process, and the natural brew component in our beverages which adds the flavour profile unique to our products.

The legal level allowable in a soft drink for it to be labelled as a non alcoholic beverage is 0.5%. We promote all of our beverages as a soft drink which is an acceptable alternative to intoxicating beverages. For further confirmation you may find information regarding Non Alcoholic Beverages in Food Standard 2.6.2

Please can you tell us if the above product is suitable for Muslim consumption.

Your response will be greatly appreciated.
Answer

In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful.

As-salāmu ‘alaykum wa-rahmatullāhi wa-barakātuh.

The contents and procedure of making the Bundaberg brewed drink as explained by yourself is the same as other soft drinks. [1] In particular, the alcohol amount is minute and is from sugar cane and not from grapes or dates. Such soft drinks are permissible[2].

However, due to the soft drink being named as “beer”, if that confuses with beer that intoxicates, then the ruling could change.

And Allah Ta’āla Knows Best

Asim Patel

Student Darul Iftaa
Venda, South Africa

Checked and Approved by,
Mufti Ebrahim Desai.


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#38 [Permalink] Posted on 12th January 2018 10:57
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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At least everyone has enough intelligence to see that your Adab stinks. You come off as a pompous know-it-all but as soon as you're slightly cornered you run away while throwing insults. It's ok if you aren't able to answer the questions, just acknowledge your ignorance. But you shouldn't start insulting someone's intelligence saying that they're from Mars and so on.

Anyway I'll leave my questions for Abu Muhammad (whose manners Muadh should learn from) and others if they're able to answer them:

1) Muadh said that futility (enjoyment reasons) is one of the reasons that non-alcoholic beer is Haram. My point was that this doesn't make any sense because otherwise ice-cream, crisps, and fizzy drinks will be Haram as well. I only asked for an explanation for that part.

2) Muadh implied that non-alcoholic beer is 'is made to intoxicate' or 'is for intoxication'. My point was surely that can't be true. Ginger beer for example is not for intoxication. I simply asked for an explanation for what 'made to intoxicate' means.

Thanks for any answers.
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#39 [Permalink] Posted on 12th January 2018 12:21
Guest-172801 wrote:
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This is where things start to contradict rulings. i.e. where it is allowed and where it is not allowed. In some cases even when it is allowed, the alcohol content is higher in percentage than those items declared as Haram.

The reason, in my view, why these drinks are and should be labelled Haram is the fact that the origin/source and purpose of such drinks is from Beer in the first place, which is made to intoxicate. Then to boil it down to remove the alcohol content with only one purpose, to expand their sales numbers and to appeal to non drinkers is wrong.

Therefore, when certain foods are made, they need alcohol of some sort to preserve their shelf life. And in some cases there is the issue of Tabdeel e Mahiyyat.

In most cases where there can be such issues, the Ulama would look into something called "Public Necessity, a widespread problem difficult to avoid" Umoom-e-Balwa (you can buy a book on the topic)


Alcohol in Flavourings

Most food products nowadays contain some type of flavouring - natural, artificial, or a combination of both. Many of these flavourings contain alcohol, which is used as a carrier or solvent for the flavouring.

The actual amount of alcohol in the finished food product may vary, but it is usually around 0.5% or less, as the alcohol evaporates during the production process. Items such as drinks and ice creams can contain a bit more, since no evaporation takes place. Such a small amount of alcohol is not required to be declared on the ingredients declaration on the packaging of the product.

The Foodguide follows the opinion of major contemporary Hanafi scholars including the venerable Mufti Yusuf Sacha of the UK (highly acclaimed foods expert) and Mufti Ashraf Usmani of Pakistan. The fatwa in our times is that synthetic alcohols (and all alcohol not sourced from dates and grapes) in foods and otherwise is pure (tahir), and permitted to use and consume on the conditions that:

(a) it is not used as an intoxicant;

(b) it is not used as intoxicants are used (i.e. for alcoholic consumption, even a little);

(c) it is not used in an amount that intoxicates;

(d) it is not used in vain (lahw).


Courtesy: Shaykh Faraz Rabbani

This verdict applies to alcoholic flavourings only (based on need and necessity and common predicament) and not where alcohol is added as an ingredient in a product. In that case, regardless what the source of the alcohol is, it is not permissible.

The verdict of many contemporary 'Ulama is based on sources of Hadith which infer that alcohol from dates and grapes are regarded as Khamr (intoxicants categorically mentioned in the Qur'aan), and that other alcohols will not be termed as ‘khamr’ in the technical sense and thus not impure.

The Hadith from Sahih Muslim, Abu Dawud, Tirmizi, Nasai, Ibn Majah says that Rasulullah Sallallahu Alaihe Wasallam said:

“Khamr is from these two trees: dates and grapes".

(I'laus sunan Vol.18 Pg.26)


This is the view propounded by the Foodguide service and rest assured that it is of sound Hanafi scholarship.

Nevertheless, if you are a follower of a Maz-hab (school of thought) other than the Hanafi School or you prefer to refrain from such products on the basis of Taqwa, then that will be praiseworthy.

We will try to facilitate such persons by indicating which products are affected on this web-site as far as possible. You should contact the company before consuming as alcohol flavouring is a common process.


Alcohol Extracts Clarification

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanilla_extract

“Vanilla extract is a solution containing the flavor compound vanillin as the primary ingredient. Pure vanilla extract is made by macerating and percolating vanilla beans in a solution of ethyl alcohol and water. In the United States, in order for a vanilla extract to be called pure, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration requires that the solution contains a minimum 35% of alcohol and 13.35 ounces of vanilla bean per gallon.[1] Double and triple strength (up to 20-fold) vanilla extracts are available.

Vanilla extract is the most common form of vanilla used today. Mexican, Tahitian, Indonesian and Bourbon vanilla are the main varieties. Bourbon vanilla is named for the period when the island of Réunion was ruled by the Bourbon kings of France; it does not contain Bourbon whiskey.

Natural vanilla flavoring is derived from real vanilla beans with little to no alcohol. The maximum amount of alcohol that is usually present is only 2%-3%. Also on the market is imitation vanilla extract, a wood by-product usually made by soaking alcohol into wood which contains vanillin. The vanillin is then chemically treated to mimic the taste of natural vanilla.”

This is a Tescos Email Seasoning Supplier response.

Paprika Extract - Solvent Extraction

Yeast Extracts: Yeast 1 is autolysed using heat, the insoluble portion is extracted using centrifugation, leaving the soluble portion of the yeast.


Yeast 2 is not extracted as such and is classed as a whole autolysed yeast. The live yeast is heated with salt so the yeast plasmolyses and then the whole mixture is dried over heated rollers.

There are no solvents or alcohols used in either process.

Based on the above information I’m not certain that we could say that this product is suitable for you; the Yeast Extracts are ok, however the Paprika Extract ingredient supplier hasn’t specifically confirmed that alcohol isn’t used only that a ‘solvent extraction’ process is used.

However, even if any alcohol was present via the Paprika Extract it would only be at an exceptionally low level (i.e. trace) in the finished product.

If alcohol is used in extraction of the seasoning extracts, it would be at trace level, which is something around 0.001 percent.

Hope this helps.

-----End of Email---


“It is not permissible for a person to consume such bread or biscuits (whose dough was made using alcohol). However, it will be permissible to consume them if it cannot be avoided because of the presence of certain narrations [in the Hanafi Madhab].

(Imdadul Fatawa 4:118)2

Majmu’ Rasaail Saqqaaf (pg. 549)

Without doubt, alcoholic extracts or otherwise derived from dates or grapes are Haraam and filthy. However, alcohols which are derived from other substances are pure. The Ulamaa have ruled on this view because of necessity or public predicament (Umoom-e-Balwa.)

Flavourings from dates and grapes?

Alhumdulillah, to date from over 15 years of experience in the field, we have yet to come across flavourings sourced from dates and grapes in the UK market.

We don't issues fatwas at the drop of the hat, but pertinent information is necessary for a decision. Furthermore, we do not charge the companies or consumers for this service, it is totally a Lillah service.

To summarise:
Alcoholic Flavourings: They are permissible due to necessity and public predicament as they are so widely used in the food industry.


Alcohol Extracts e.g. (vanilla, yeast and others): They are permissible due to necessity and public predicament as they are so widely used in the food industry.


So the question is, what is the evidence for Public Necessity?

Well, all the mentioned prohibitions apply in situations in which one has a choice. However, in case of a necessity a different rule applies. Allah Ta’ala says: …He has explained to you what He has made haram for you, except that to which you are compelled… (6:119)
And after mentioning the prohibitions concerning the flesh of dead animals, blood, and so on, He says: …but if one is compelled by necessity, neither craving (it) nor transgressing, there is no sin on him; indeed, Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (2:172-173)

The permitting of haram under necessity is meant to make life easy and less oppressive for human beings. Allah says:

" ... Allah desires for you ease; He desires not hardship for you ... " (Al-Qur'an 2:185)

In other verse, He says:

"Allah would make the burden light for you, for man was created weak." (Al-Qur'an 4:28)

One might argue that ice-cream, soft drinks, crisps, juices etc are not a necessity, but the fact is, almost everything produced takes a similar cause of action. Therefore, some items are Halal and others are Haram.

Drinking a non alcoholic beverage made from what "was" an alcoholic beverage from a container that looks identical to the haram product is a blatant act to imitate and please ones self.

So you might ask, what if the same drink was labelled differently and designed like a plain bottle of water, what would the ruling be then? Honestly, Allah knows best :)

At the end of the day, who are we fooling?

Hence the rulings laid out in the OP will always be my argument.
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#40 [Permalink] Posted on 12th January 2018 12:47

Anonymous wrote:
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Nice try at distraction to hide your inadequacies and most people do it to hide their embarrassment because it is easier to deflect and blame others than to reflect upon one’s own inadequacy and admit that one lacks the ability to grasp simple points.

You STILL don't understand the primary issues and the reference to Ginger Beer (and its irrelevance to the discussion) so let’s try again in simple and huge letters.

GINGER

BEER

HAS

NO

ALCOHOL!

 

IT

IS

IRRELEVANT

TO

THE

DISCUSSION.

Hopefully the letters are large enough for you to get the issue, now to the original and simple point.

ALCOHOL

IN

BEER

INTOXICATES

THEREFORE...

 

 

A SINGLE DROP

OF THAT ALCOHOL

IS

HARAM

 

ALTHOUGH

 

WE

 

KNOW

 

THAT

 

A SINGLE DROP

 

WILL

 

NOT INTOXICATE

 

Now to the deduced conclusion

NON-ALCOHOLIC

BEER

IS

HARAM

 

ALTHOUGH

 

WE

 

KNOW

 

THAT

 

IT WILL

 

NOT

 

GET YOU DRUNK

BECAUSE...

 

 

IT HAS

ALCOHOL

 

WHICH...

 

HAS THE

 

PROPERTIES,

 

GOALS,

 

OBJECTIVES,

 

AND THE SOLE PURPOSE TO

 

INTOXICATE

Let me make it even easier...

 

ALCOHOL

 

IN

 

BEER

 

 

HAS NO OTHER

PURPOSE

BUT TO

INTOXICATE

 

Consider this...

PURPOSE

OF THIS IS NOT TO

INTOXICATE

 

ALCOHOL

IS NOT

ADDED

 

 

IT IS A

"CARRIER"

 

REPRESENTED IN PPM

 

 

NON-ALCOHOLIC

BEER

HAS

ALCOHOL

 

WHICH IS...

ADDED

 

ALCOHOL IS NOT A

"CARRIER" IN BEER, IT IS PART OF IT

 

 

Nevertheless...

ULAMA

"ADVISE"

MUSLIMS

TO NOT EVEN CONSUME

ANY FOOD PRODUCTS

 WITH

ALCOHOL

IT DOES NOT MATTER

 EVEN IF ITS A CARRIER

 

"SUGGESTION:"

When you go shopping:

  1. If the ice-cream has Alcohol
  2. Put it back and get the one without Alcohol
  3. It is not critical to your life!

P
H
E
W!

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#41 [Permalink] Posted on 12th January 2018 14:04
Even the non-Muslim's are upset about these misleading methods.

Youtube Video
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#42 [Permalink] Posted on 12th January 2018 14:27
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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You brought up enjoyment (futility) reasons as a Haram factor. Could you kindly explain that please.

According to your explanation above, the Bundaberg brewed drinks described below will be Haram because the alcohol is not used as a carrier? Right or wrong?


Do Bundaberg Brewed Drinks Products contain alcohol?

All Bundaberg Brewed Drinks naturally brewed products contain minute residual traces of alcohol. Our manufacturing process uses natural yeast which feed on sugars and ferments the ‘brew’ to be used as a base for our beverages. Alcohol is a by-product of this fermentation process. Before we fill the product into bottles we heat the brew to above 70 degrees C. to kill the yeast, halt the fermentation process, and remove the alcohol. After this heating process all of our products have a residual alcohol level of less than 0.5%. It is this manufacturing process, and the natural brew component in our beverages which adds the flavour profile unique to our products.

The legal level allowable in a soft drink for it to be labelled as a non alcoholic beverage is 0.5%. We promote all of our beverages as a soft drink which is an acceptable alternative to intoxicating beverages. For further confirmation you may find information regarding Non Alcoholic Beverages in Food Standard 2.6.2

Please can you tell us if the above product is suitable for Muslim consumption.

Your response will be greatly appreciated.
Answer

In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful.

As-salāmu ‘alaykum wa-rahmatullāhi wa-barakātuh.

The contents and procedure of making the Bundaberg brewed drink as explained by yourself is the same as other soft drinks. [1] In particular, the alcohol amount is minute and is from sugar cane and not from grapes or dates. Such soft drinks are permissible[2].

However, due to the soft drink being named as “beer”, if that confuses with beer that intoxicates, then the ruling could change.

And Allah Ta’āla Knows Best

Asim Patel

Student Darul Iftaa
Venda, South Africa

Checked and Approved by,
Mufti Ebrahim Desai.
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#43 [Permalink] Posted on 12th January 2018 14:56
guest4556 wrote:
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A source of your post above, of which I have taken the positive of in earlier posts askimam.org/public/question_detail/32304

Two Points to note:
1: (Highlighting the important factors only)
All Bundaberg Brewed Drinks naturally brewed products contain minute residual traces of alcohol. Our manufacturing process uses natural yeast which feed on sugars and ferments the ‘brew’ to be used as a base for our beverages. Alcohol is a by-product of this fermentation process. Before we fill the product into bottles we heat the brew to above 70 degrees C. to kill the yeast, halt the fermentation process, and remove the alcohol. After this heating process all of our products have a residual alcohol level of less than 0.5%. It is this manufacturing process, and the natural brew component in our beverages which adds the flavour profile unique to our products.
2: However, due to the soft drink being named as “beer”, if that confuses with beer that intoxicates, then the ruling could change.

It is very clear that their aims and objectives are to brew and perfect their manufacturing process to get the unique flavour of a haram alcoholic beer!

They are NOT using this process as a carrier or because of public predicament. Their aim is to get people into the habit of drinking beer and to normalise it. From the very onset, their intentions are very clear.

If the Ulama are to use this same ruling for all the 0.5% ABV Beers - I'm sure, even the public will lose faith in them.

Point 2 will come into effect!
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#44 [Permalink] Posted on 12th January 2018 15:13

Anonymous wrote:
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I have no idea what is "Bundaberg" so I defer to the knowledge of the Ulama but I have already touched on on YEAST twice:

Here & Here

Note that in the first reference, I have already given you the chemical reaction and the formula. In the second post I have shown practically as to how common Alcohol is everyday diet.

It is NOT the same as BEER!

Advice:

I am assuming that you are a Muslim. I advise you to make Wudhu and do Salah and request Allah to give you spiritual illumination to subdue your Shaytaan (devil) and your Nafs (ego).

  1. You are not very clever
  2. You are not well informed

But you insist on arguing by bringing XYZ into the argument which is irrelevant.

Insisting on matters just out of stubbornness will destroy your relationship with Allah Ta’ala. There is NOT A SINGLE argument which you have made so far which makes any scientific, Islamic, logical or philosophical sense whatsoever but somehow your Nafs (ego) has been hurt and you just want to keep on arguing.

Its upto you to protect your religion OR keep on yapping with irrelevant points just because your inadequacy has been exposed.

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#45 [Permalink] Posted on 12th January 2018 18:04
Not sure how many guests are posting or if they are all the same.

You are picking on Muadh for his various methods of trying to get some sort of language through to you all so you understand one of them and at the same time, ignoring certain points Abu Mohammed is making in response to your repeated questions.

Please show me some courtesy by answering at least this one question, lest I fall to another level of your understanding.
I have one specific question regarding these beers.

What are the manufacturers doing to differentiate between the beers? Your answer should dictate the shar'ee legality of these beers.

Be honest, your answer should be that they are doing the opposite. They are trying to make the beer to look, taste, smell, feel, and be drunk in the same way, at the same places, for the same purpose as the intoxicating beers. In other words to be the same. To be the Real McCoy.
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