The Salafi Hijack

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#136 [Permalink] Posted on 14th October 2011 23:38

abu mohammed wrote:

Nobody has said doing one adhan is haram, again you are putting words in our mouth.

does that mean it's halal and permissible to do one azan?

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#137 [Permalink] Posted on 14th October 2011 23:44

abu mohammed wrote:

There is a difference in abrogation and addition.

adding to the ruling so it changes is abrogation, before that which was prescribed was one azan, and now it's two azans, so two azans have abrogated the one azan, correct?

just to make it easier for you inshallah, I checked up abrogate at www.dictionary.com

they said,

1. to abolish by formal or official means; annul by an authoritative act; repeal: to abrogate a law.
2. to put aside; put an end to.

it also say "to cancel or revoke formally or officially; repeal; annul"

how is this different to what you said?

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#138 [Permalink] Posted on 14th October 2011 23:55

Brother, no one in the history of Islam has taken away the adhan of the prophet saw for Jummah, its still there. What has been added has not abrogated the first.

Please read the definition you have provided.

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#139 [Permalink] Posted on 14th October 2011 23:57

thesunnah wrote:

abu mohammed wrote:

Nobody has said doing one adhan is haram, again you are putting words in our mouth.

does that mean it's halal and permissible to do one azan?

please answer this question

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#140 [Permalink] Posted on 15th October 2011 00:17

Allahu Akbar.

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#141 [Permalink] Posted on 15th October 2011 00:40

"thesunnah" wrote:

does that mean it's halal and permissible to do one azan? please answer this question

Is the second Azhan Haraam?

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#142 [Permalink] Posted on 15th October 2011 06:08

Yasin wrote:

"thesunnah" wrote:

does that mean it's halal and permissible to do one azan? please answer this question[/quote] Is the second Azhan Haraam?[/quote]

I don't know if you actually read that which is typed on this thread, I clearly stated what the brother at Tarbeeyyah told me earlier

thesunnah wrote:

2) both actions are permissible if there weren't any objections from the other sahaba

[/quote]

any I asked his specifically about the second azan and he said it's permissible.

abu mohammed wrote:

Allahu Akbar.

I don't know why it's so difficult to answer the question, the question is simple, is it permissible to do just one azan like the azan of the Prophet pbuh, Abu Bakr and Umar?

[quote="abu mohammed"]I must stress, this is not a battle with any one mosque, but as some of us can relate to it then I shall ask another question.

Why is the Adhaan for Jummah only given once and the Adhaan given by Hadhrat Uthman not given. ...

The adhan of uthman and the Taraweeh of umar are both being neglected with silly excuses. We all know what the prophet SAW said about the Sunnah of the khulafa rashideen. So why twist and turn things around....

... yes there was 1 adhaan for Jummah whilst the prophet was around, and yes the prophet also told us to follow these Sunnah of the rightly guided caliphs.

So why the drop out. (as I know some will say "we don't reject it") why not stick to it. And please don't say the Asal is there and that's what we practice.

[quote="abu mohammed"]You haven't answered the question on the adhans for Jummah as practiced at some mosques.

I think their stance is very clear, they are following the sunnah of the Prophet pbuh, Abu Bakr who was the greatest sahaba and khalifa, and Umar who was the next best sahaba and khalifa, what's the objection to what they're doing? and then they also say that whoever follows the sunnah of Uthman is also correct.

As I've told you many times on this thread, alhamdulillah they always have answers, they are straight forward and always have evidence mashallah, whilst on the contrary we keep avoiding questions, keep beating around the bush, I really don't understand why you chose not to answer the question, "is it permissible to do just one azan like the azan of the Prophet pbuh, Abu Bakr and Umar?" this really surprises me.

I hope we're not following our desires on this ruling, that it's just a battle between hanafis and salafis and we can never give into their opinions, you really have shocked me!

[quote="abu mohammed"]both being neglected with silly excuses.

what are the silly excuses?

I think now you understand why I find their methodology a lot more convincing, I don't understand why our people slander them so much especially when it seems as if they are the people of the sunnah!

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#143 [Permalink] Posted on 15th October 2011 10:10

What is the rule for going against the ijma of the ummah?
What are those called who go against the ijma of the ummah?

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#144 [Permalink] Posted on 15th October 2011 16:06

Daywalk3r wrote:

i wouldve gone to Eid Salaah in Springfield Park IF both Eid dates were the same. My wife wouldve come but my littlest is still 2 years old so a bit difficult for her at present. If the next eid fitr dates are the same and im still alive i will, inshallah, be there.

Insha'Allah, i too will insha'Allah be there next year and hopefully we can all put our difference aside and carry out this noble sunnah together insha'Allah

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#145 [Permalink] Posted on 15th October 2011 16:29

abu mohammed wrote:

What is the rule for going against the ijma if the ummah?
What are those called who go against the ijma if the ummah?

why do you keep avoiding the question? this is a sign of deception.

I spoke to the brother about the ruling of the azan on jumma etc.

he told me to ask you the following questions: (i'm paraphrasing the questions)

1) lets say there was ijma amongst the sahabas on this ruling (even though there are narrations of Ali doing both 1 azan and 2 azans...), the question is, does the ijma of the sahabas remove the ruling of the prophet pbuh or does it make 2 azans permissible? (just incase you don't understand the question, does the ijma of the sahaba make it impermissible to do just one azan like the azan of the Prophet pbuh, Abu Bakr and Umar? or does it just make it permissible to do 2 azans?

------

This hadith is given in the question 3540 on this website

Narrated As-Saib bin Yazid: In the life-time of the Prophet, Abu Bakr and Umar, the Adhan for the Jumua prayer used to be pronounced when the Imam sat on the pulpit. But during the Caliphate of 'Uthman when the Muslims increased in number, a third Adhan at Az-Zaura' was added. Abu 'Abdullah said, "Az-Zaura' is a place in the market of Madina." (Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 13, Number 35

2) why did uthman do two azans?

(i'm guessing you're going to say because the ummah grew therefore an azan was needed in the market)

3) you claim to follow Uthman but you don't, you call the azan in the same building twice, you can't just take part of what Uthman did and leave the other part, if you want to follow his sunnah, then do 1 azan in the mosque and 1 outside in the market/park/road/street... so my question here is, which khalifa are you following in doing 2 azans in the same building?

the brother then mentioned the following:

illa/sabab (reason) is; "when its present the ruling is present and when it's absent the ruling is absent."
if we say the reason he did it was because those in the market couldn't hear, than that means if they can hear, you wont go to the market to call the azan, now we're saying you can't hear the azan from outside the mosque, so why are you calling two azans?

----------------

Mashallah there are thousands of examples the hanafis accuse the salafis of doing but when the evidences are provided, the hanafis don't seem to respond, we've seen this here on this ruling and also previously when the brother gave a few evidences proving it's permissible to wipe over socks.

I find it embarrassing how people hold onto their opinion blindly even when the proofs have become so clear.

If you attempt to answer this, please answer it properly, you're better avoiding the questions completely than making a fool out of yourself.

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#146 [Permalink] Posted on 15th October 2011 17:08

With all due respect thesunnah, you've asked nothing but questions. Each question have had direct implications of accusations hence the questions themselves were not genuine.

Abu Mohammed, Muadh_Khan and Seiffiddine have answered everything that required an answer.

They didn't ignore questions which were not answered, they rather corrected the questions.

There's been no follow ups from you on questions which were answered followed by a question to you.

super-glue posted a few questions which was totally ignored by you.

You will next ask me where and show you proof of the above, my proof is page 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 and 11 of this topic.

You say he's deceiving when he's posted articles and answers given by Ulamaa which you reject and ask him to give you answers.

So you clearly prefer an answer of a lay person above a scholar? Isn't this what Salafism is all about? But when a Salafi is asked a question they refer to their scholars and books? Isn't this the very blind following that you attack the Ahlus-Sunnah Wal Jamaa'ah with?

You're attacking Uthmaan رضي الله عنه, the 3rd Khalifah of Islam about the Azhaan even though you don't phrase it as an attack.

Your constant questions on this means you're waiting for us to say something which you can pound on right? Why don't we save the time by you telling us what you want to hear?

After he answered your questions, abu Mohammed asked you two questions and you answered with the above? That's not answering him, so who's avoiding, deceiving, manipulating and drifting? It is you.

Please answer his questions, please also answer super-glue as I believe they were directed to you.

Then answer the following:
Is the 2nd Azhaan wrong? Is it not permissible. Once you say it's wrong and not permissible then your questions are valid otherwise you're just causing Fitnah on an act which is permissible and when the Sahaabah, yes the COMPANIONS OF NABI (saw)

did not disagree then who in the world are you (Salafis) to start questioning it? [added] The whole market saga is not to do with the current questions you pose but rather a defence of rulings which are available in every school of thought.

I am not angry, I have to post harshly as you have the qualities of politicians and corrupt lawyers in your posts. I am only saying what I see so please do not be offended without proving me wrong first.

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#147 [Permalink] Posted on 15th October 2011 21:57

Yasin wrote:

You say he's deceiving when he's posted articles and answers given by Ulamaa which you reject and ask him to give you answers.

[/quote]

I have read so many articles you and abu mohammad have directed me to, I haven't found answers to many questions and misconceptions I have.

Yasin wrote:

So you clearly prefer an answer of a lay person above a scholar?

[/quote]

I've come to this site because it's called muftisays, if none of you are qualified to answer my questions, I think you should change the name of your website, here's a suggestion; www.laymansays.com I think this address is more suitable since you and everyone else here can't answer questions and then slander me for asking.

Yasin wrote:

Isn't this what Salafism is all about? But when a Salafi is asked a question they refer to their scholars and books? Isn't this the very blind following that you attack the Ahlus-Sunnah Wal Jamaa'ah with?

[/quote]

I don't understand what you're talking about.

Yasin wrote:

You're attacking Uthmaan رضي الله عنه, the 3rd Khalifah of Islam about the Azhaan even though you don't phrase it as an attack.

[/quote]

whats your proof?

Yasin wrote:

Your constant questions on this means you're waiting for us to say something which you can pound on right? Why don't we save the time by you telling us what you want to hear?

[/quote]

No, my constant questions on this is because I want to know the truth, I have alhamdulillah been given many answers by the brother at Tarbeeyyah but when it comes to asking you lot, I don't get anything.

Yasin wrote:

After he answered your questions, abu Mohammed asked you two questions and you answered with the above? That's not answering him, so who's avoiding, deceiving, manipulating and drifting? It is you.

what questions did he answer? he posted a question because he didn't know how to reply.

You want my answers, I'm not a scholar or anything near but this is what the brother said, it's not permissible to go against ijmaa, the one that does is a faasiq. You happy now, now hopefully you or abu mohammad can answer my questions.

[quote="Yasin"]

Then answer the following:
Is the 2nd Azhaan wrong? Is it not permissible.

[quote="thesunnah"]

both actions are permissible if there weren't any objections from the other sahaba

[quote="thesunnah"]

I asked his specifically about the second azan and he said it's permissible.

[quote="Yasin"]

Once you say it's wrong and not permissible then your questions are valid otherwise you're just causing Fitnah on an act which is permissible and when the Sahaabah, yes the COMPANIONS OF NABI (saw)

did not disagree then who in the world are you (Salafis) to start questioning it?

I haven't come across a single one of the brothers that teach at tarbeeyyah saying it's haram, bida, not permissible...etc.

my question to you is, who in the world are you to reject what the prophet pbuh, abu bakr and umar did?

[quote="Yasin"]

I am not angry, I have to post harshly as you have the qualities of politicians and corrupt lawyers in your posts. I am only saying what I see so please do not be offended without proving me wrong first.

WOW! another blatant lie.

As for my questions;

Question 1)

[question removed. please post Q&A to the ULAMAA)

Question 2)

[question removed. please post Q&A to the ULAMAA)

Question 3)

[question removed. please post Q&A to the ULAMAA)

the brother then mentioned the following:

illa/sabab (reason) is; "when its present the ruling is present and when it's absent the ruling is absent."
if we say the reason he did it was because those in the market couldn't hear, than that means if they can hear, you wont go to the market to call the azan, now we're saying you can't hear the azan from outside the mosque, so why are you calling two azans?

can you please answer these questions and also refute the points the brother made in regards to wiping over the socks (by the way, I read the articles that were posted regarding the socks and they obviously didn't refute the points the brother made, so now it's up to you to provide an answer)

[this post has been edited to remove rudeness and other aspects which breach rules. Please see the rules topic (available in each category). The original post has been PM'd to you so you don't lose any of its contents]

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#148 [Permalink] Posted on 15th October 2011 22:43

thesunnah wrote:

I have read so many articles you and abu mohammad have directed me to, I haven't found answers to many questions and misconceptions I have. [/quote]
That is not anyone's problem but the one who doesn't understand. I recommend you speak to a teacher of the subject who can explain and clear up any misconceptions you have.

thesunnah wrote:

I've come to this site because it's called muftisays, if none of you are qualified to answer my questions, I think you should change the name of your website, here's a suggestion; www.laymansays.com I think this address is more suitable since you and everyone else here can't answer questions and then slander me for asking. [/quote]
www.muftisays.com/qa is where you need to go.
TO submit a question, please visit www.muftisays.com/qa/askmufti/

This is the forum section of the website. To understand what a forum is please see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_forum

thesunnah wrote:

I don't understand what you're talking about.[/quote]
About Taqleed

thesunnah wrote:

whats your proof?[/quote]
Your previous posts. Your questions and the manner of your questions.

thesunnah wrote:

No, my constant questions on this is because I want to know the truth, I have alhamdulillah been given many answers by the brother at Tarbeeyyah but when it comes to asking you lot, I don't get anything. [/quote]
If what you've received from the other members is "nothing" then no amount of answers will ever be enough. You just can't put a bucket of water into a cup.

thesunnah wrote:

what questions did he answer? he posted a question because he didn't know how to reply.[/quote]
From what everyone has seen but you, he's answered everything that needed to be answered. Here's a small tip. Sometimes, and I mean sometimes, in order to answer a question, a counter question is asked to reach the answer of the first question. It doesn't mean the person "doesn't know" how to answer

[quote="thesunnah"]You want my answers, I'm not a scholar or anything near but this is what the brother said, it's not permissible to go against ijmaa, the one that does is a faasiq. You happy now, now hopefully you or abu mohammad can answer my questions.

Yet:
a) you do not accept answers provided.
b) you ask non-scholars
c) The moment you answered it is not permissible to go against Ijmaa', you instantly applied that to us by asking "you happy now" - why would we get happy? We already know the ruling AND follow it.
d) your current questions are all opposing Ijmaa so is there an exception for Salafis in the permissibility of opposing Ijmaa'?

[quote="thesunnah"]both actions are permissible if there weren't any objections from the other sahaba

Was that so difficult? I asked so when you answer this alone, I could take it to step 2. But your answers were "you don't read anything", you, you and you. See where I'm coming from?

[quote="thesunnah"]I haven't come across a single one of the brothers that teach at tarbeeyyah saying it's haram, bida, not permissible...etc.

my question to you is, who in the world are you to reject what the Prophet pbuh, Abu Bakr and Umar did?

I just asked what was the ruling. Not what they say or who says or who doesn't say. Again, simple answers is not possible for you.

Answer to your question: The problem with SALAFIS is that they see rejection in everything, then comes accusations and slander. Here again you somehow came to a conclusion that I am a Munkir. So, Jazakallah for that.

[quote="thesunnah"]WOW! another blatant lie.

I see you have Ilmul-Ghayb too. I thought only Allah knew what's in a heart. Think!

[quote="thesunnah"]illa/sabab (reason) is; "when its present the ruling is present and when it's absent the ruling is absent."
if we say the reason he did it was because those in the market couldn't hear, than that means if they can hear, you wont go to the market to call the azan, now we're saying you can't hear the azan from outside the mosque, so why are you calling two azans?

www.muftisays.com/qa/askmufti/ - please refer it to the scholars of this site and not its forum members.

[quote="thesunnah"]can you please answer these questions and also refute the points the brother made in regards to wiping over the socks (by the way, I read the articles that were posted regarding the socks and they obviously didn't refute the points the brother made, so now it's up to you to provide an answer)

Once again, if you didn't find the answers in what's been provided then your mind is closed to the answer. Please refer to a scholar IF you want to learn the truth but if your intention is to simply argue about it then please take it up elsewhere.

For now, I will have to apply the following rule from hereon:

Please post questions such as the ones posed in this topic to the Ulamaa. Or click here for a vast library on islamqa.org. Alternatively, you can get support locating available answers online in the Q&A Support section of this form here

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#149 [Permalink] Posted on 15th October 2011 23:00

abu mohammed wrote:

And as you have mentioned sisters, then let it be known that that I have had to stop sisters discussing things over MSN. I will not mention or hint as to.who the sisters were, but all I will say is that they were going into detail, surely she should know that this is haraam.

Assalamu'alaykum,

Just reading this post makes me feel sick to the core subhan'Allah.

[admin edit: This post has been removed due to incorrect understanding leading to accusations - original post has been sent to you via PM]

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Verily, those who divide their religion and break up into sects (all kinds of religious sects), you (O Muhammad SAW) have no concern in them in the least. Their affair is only with Allah, Who then will tell them what they used to do. (6:159)

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#150 [Permalink] Posted on 15th October 2011 23:11

thesunnah wrote:

You want my answers, I'm not a scholar or anything near but this is what the brother said, it's not permissible to go against ijmaa, the one that does is a faasiq. You happy now, now hopefully you or abu mohammad can answer my questions.

To give one adhan for Jummah is not haram. That is what you wanted hear. But to leave out the Sunnah of the khulaafa on a continuous basis would be going against the ijma. Hadhrat Ali RA was of the khulaafa, but the Hadith you provided was temporary. Therefore the ijma was and has been for 1400 years of the adhan of uthman ra continues.

So if you guys find their theory in conjunction with your nafs, then so be it. You have the answer of those who go against the ijma of the ummah.

And this is not the only place where these theories stop, there are other places where their nafs have gone against the ijma. If you want to know where, them ask. Sweet talk and theories do not hold value in the eyes of the ijma.

We aren't scholars, but the details below are from scholars.

I am not calling you or anybody a fasiq,but if this the opinion that you find crystal clear, then you can take the title upon your self.

I heard As-Saib bin Yazid, saying, "In the life-time of Allah's Apostle, and Abu Bakr and Umar, the Adhan for the Jumua prayer used to be pronounced after the Imam had taken his seat on the pulpit. But when the people increased in number during the caliphate of 'Uthman, he introduced a third Adhan (on Friday for the Jumua prayer) and it was pronounced at Az-Zaura' and that new state of affairs remained so in the succeeding years. (Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 13, Number 39)

Note:

First Adhan: After the Imam had taken his seat (i.e. on the pulpit).

Second Adhan: is the Iqamat (which can be described as an Adhan too).

These two Adhan were during the life time of the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam), and Abu Bakr and Umar (RadhiyAllahu Anhuma).

The third Adhan mentioned in the above Ahadith is before the Khutba Adhan, this was introduced by Uthman (RadhiyAllahu Anhu). (Ma'arifus Sunan Vol. 4 Pg. 405, 406)

After analysing all these narrations we learn that the third Adhan (before the Khutba Adhan) of Jumuah is the Sunnah of Uthman (RadhiyAllahu Anhu) and Ijma us Sahabah (consensus of the Sahabah). ('Umadatul Qari Vol. 6 Pg. 211) (Darse Tirmidhi Vol. 2 Pg. 292, 293)

This ijma' is definite and Lazim (binding), whoever rejects this is not a Kafir but a Fasiq (transgressor). (Usul us Shashi Pg. 79)

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