Forum Menu - Click/Swipe to open
 
Top Members

The Salafi Hijack

Jump to page:

You have contributed 0.0% of this topic

Thread Tools
Appreciate
Topic Appreciation
rizmalek, member2, super-glue, ummi taalib, sweetmuslimahk1, Seifeddine-M, Yasin, abu mohammed, Naqshband66, Abu Taalib Deobandi, Arfatzafar, Jinn, kanzoorbhai
11 guests appreciate this topic.
Rank Image
abu mohammed's avatar
London
21,162
Brother
7,166
abu mohammed's avatar
#46 [Permalink] Posted on 29th September 2011 10:40
Thesunnah wrote:
Just the other day, I spoke to some salafi brothers who attend tarbeeyyah mosque on leswin road, I asked one of their brothers who is currently studying about following a Madhab and he told me he recomends it and that he's a follower of the Hanbali madhab, I was shocked after hearing this thinking they were completely against the four madhaahib.


Salaam Brother,

Please do not get misled by such comments. This is just the start as Maulana Yasin has said.

All 4 Schools accept the each other, however, has any of them tried to defame the other, NO!. But now, the Hanbali school has been hijacked by some, not all, and now the schools are being defamed.

Certain pseudo Salafees have hijacked the school of Imam Ahmed Ibn Hanbal and replaced it with the school of Shaykh ibn Taymiyyah رضي الله عنه and other recent scholars.

www.muftisays.com/forums/the-true-salaf-as-saliheen/4987/...

This is just about fiqh, do you even know what their Aqeedah is, SubhanAllah, it is not from any of the four schools of of thought.

Have a look at this, you will be amazed. From a Hanbali point of view.

www.muftisays.com/blog/abu+mohammed/1755_30-06-2011/salaf...

And by the way, welcome to Muftisays with Salaam.
(I'm no Alim either, also from Stoke Newington)
report post quote code quick quote reply
+2 -0Like x 2
back to top
Rank Image
abu mohammed's avatar
London
21,162
Brother
7,166
abu mohammed's avatar
#47 [Permalink] Posted on 29th September 2011 10:52
thesunnah wrote:
He then told me that these madhaahib have been given great acceptance by the Ummah so its highly recomended to follow one but at the same time baring in mind that only the Prophet (pbuh) was free from error so we follow a Madhab as a guidline and IF we are able to find something which is authentic and contradicts the Madhab then we must follow it.


IF, can you please kindly name me one scholar who is in the position of doubting that IF or is even ABLE to do so. There are no Muhaddith, Mujtahid Imams around, so who will investigate the IF's and who is remotely even ABLE.

The Four Imams have their reasons and evidences for having such rules.

Each rule fits in perfectly with the next like clock work, if we try to be clever on assume that another opinion is better than his Imam, then the clock will stop ticking properly, and as time goes by, one will be picking and choosing which rules they think are stronger than their school. Eventualy the clock will stop working.

Maybe a diagram/picture will help us understand better.
www.muftisays.com/blog/abu+mohammed/487_29-10-2010/fiqh-m...
report post quote code quick quote reply
+1 -0Like x 1
back to top
Rank Image
Offline
London, Stokenewingt
31
Brother
-83
#48 [Permalink] Posted on 29th September 2011 11:56
Assalaamu'alaikum,

Jazakumullaahu Khairan for your replies.

After reading through your replies and some of the information in the links that were posted, I thought it would only be right to ask the brother I spoke to before as to be just and have both sides of the argument.

Some of the things he mentioned are as follows;

It is impossible to claim that all four of the madhaahib are correct in every opinion because they contradict, sometimes it may've been possible for the prophet (pbuh) to do more than one action and the example he gave was like 'the sitting of rest after the second sajdah' saying that when he (pbuh) was fit and healthy he was able to stand directly from sajdah and towards the end of his life he had to sit for a rest as mentioned in the hadeeth of malik in Bukhari and Muslim and said that this is what Ibn Qudama stated in mugni.

Some examples he mentioned that were impossible to reconcile between are as follows;

- How the ahnaaf say nikah is permissable without a wali as opposed to the other madhaahib

- How touching a woman breaks the wudu according to the shafieeyyah as opposed to the other madhaahib

- How the malikiyyah say it's permissable to eat dogs as opposed to the other madhaahib

- How the hanabilah say a man is not allowed to make wudu with the same water a woman has used as opposed to the other madhaahib.

and many more examples.

he then stated, if a shafi man and a hanafi man both accidently touched the same woman, how can it be in the religion of Allaah that one has to repeat his wudu and the other is ok... proving his point with this and other points I can't recall that not everything in all of the madhaahib are correct and it's not possible for the religion of Allaah to be like this.

When I asked him about cotton socks he said it's from the madhab of the hanabilah stating it falls under the definiton of 'jawrabayn' and this opnion was held by a number of the sahabas such as Ali ra, al-Mugheera ra and many others, the definiton was also supported by scholars such as an-Nawawi, Ibn Hazm, Ahmad ibn Hanbal and many other scholars.

He then stated that it is not permissable to come forward with an opinion that is not supported by the salaf of this ummah, i.e the first few generations... so all of the opinions they follow has backing from a number of the salaf so nothing strange can ever be put into this religion.

As regards to authentic ahadeeth, he said he prefers to stick to the classical muhadditheen such as Ahmad bin Hanbal, Shu'ba, Yahya bin ma'een, Bukhari, Muslim, ashaab as sunan and others, and he said that they we're from amongst the greatest muhadditheen so their gradings of ahadeeth take precedence to the scholars of hadeeth today.

Another thing he mentioned was that they (hanbalis) have been given a bad name because some scholars from other madhaahib have singled out strange opinions by some of their contempory scholars, he said the best way to deal with strange issues is to say, "inshaAllaah he'll get a reward for his ijtihaad" and at the same time not promote the opinon and not degrade the sheikh that said it (the same way they don't degrade some of the salaf for strange views)

He mentioned many other things but I didn't have time to write them down.

By analysing what he said, it seems as if they always have backing from the muhadditheen and fuqaha of the past for their opinions and it only seems strange to us because we've been revolving around many misconceptions and rumours spread by our peers.

I think the more I take our arguments to them, the stronger their arguments look, they seem to be a people who have great love for the quran, sunnah, sahaba and the salaf of this ummah, their madhab revolves around evidence and salaf.

I think to say that they are like the shayateen in their manhaj is unfair and slander, it's very easy for them to say the same to us.

Please feel free to advise me.




report post quote code quick quote reply
+0 -3Dislike x 3
back to top
Rank Image
abu mohammed's avatar
London
21,162
Brother
7,166
abu mohammed's avatar
#49 [Permalink] Posted on 29th September 2011 12:09
Nobody is calling them shayateen.

So you say their arguments seem stronger, you also admit that you are not an Alim.

Don't try this please, but ponder.

Arguing with shaytan, he is capable of convincing any one of anything. So if his argument seem more correct, then what?

Fiqh issues are fine, there are differences.

You mention yaha ibn maeen, he knew more Hadith than imam Ahmed and imam bukhari, yet he made taqleed of none other than imam abu hanifa.
report post quote code quick quote reply
+2 -0Like x 2
back to top
Rank Image
abu mohammed's avatar
London
21,162
Brother
7,166
abu mohammed's avatar
#50 [Permalink] Posted on 29th September 2011 12:40
Because there seem to be some form of contradiction, isnt it wiser to follow just one school, fully.

Why not just stay with the sound opinions of the Salaf, and I dont mean the recent Salaf, I mean the the first three generations.

Please see the links provided, your reply indicates that you have not done so.

report post quote code quick quote reply
+2 -0Like x 2
back to top
Rank Image
Offline
London, Stokenewingt
31
Brother
-83
#51 [Permalink] Posted on 29th September 2011 13:04
Assalaamu'alaikum

I don't mean to be rude akhi but you seem to be contradicting yourself, you said "Nobody is calling them shayateen. " and then you said "arguing with shaytan, he is capable of convincing any one of anything. So if his argument seem more correct, then what?" obvioulsy insinuating that they are the shayateen.

As for the salah thing in the summer, I'm not defending them here but I remember when it happend, I actually asked them, they said that one of OUR DEOBANDI MUFTIS in Blackburn and I can't remember his name said it was permissable and also a large number of other scholars said the same thing, the reason to this was not because Isha was too late, but because the twighlight doesn't dissapear hence the time of Isha doesn't actually take place so some level of ijtihaad has to be taken, as far as I remember, a large number of our deobandi muftis gave the same fatwa.

I don't know what your intentions are and why you accuse these brothers of all the things you do without actually knowing the full situation, alhamdulillaah Allaah has allowed me to speak to them to find out and clear a lot of misconceptions, we need to verify things before we stand up and speak, remember, we are all going to stand infront of Allaah one day and we will be questioned about EVERYTHING!!


report post quote code quick quote reply
+0 -4Dislike x 4
back to top
Rank Image
Muadh_Khan's avatar
Offline
UK
9,883
Brother
8,080
Muadh_Khan's avatar
#52 [Permalink] Posted on 29th September 2011 13:09

W-Salam,

Will translate this talk as it answers most of the questions and concerns of everyone in this thread, Insha'Allah.

Jazakullah Khairun

report post quote code quick quote reply
+1 -0Like x 1
back to top
Rank Image
Offline
London, Stokenewingt
31
Brother
-83
#53 [Permalink] Posted on 29th September 2011 13:14
Assalaamu'alaikum

Because there seem to be some form of contradiction, isnt it wiser to follow just one school, fully.

I don't know how this could ever make sense to anyone, this is how I am but alhamdulillaah it seems as if things are opening up for me... how can all the haq be in the hands of one person?? as I mentioned before, only the prophet (pbuh) is perfect, if we try our utmost to follow the quran and the sunnah with the understanding of the salaf without allowing our desire to step in the way (and Allaah knows the intentions of everyone) then how can we be blamed for this?

This for me is the strongest part of their arguments.

As for the links provided, I read a lot of what was written but found it full of misconceptions (which may be lies depending on the person who said it and why they said it) and slander and when I took some points back to the brother, he actually showed me in their books that some of the accusations are not as they seem.

I hope this slandering and backbiting is not just to preserve our identity and affiliations, Allaah knows that which is in the hearts of man.

report post quote code quick quote reply
+0 -2Dislike x 2
back to top
Rank Image
abu mohammed's avatar
London
21,162
Brother
7,166
abu mohammed's avatar
#54 [Permalink] Posted on 29th September 2011 13:21
I'm not contradicting my self, you mentioned shayateen, I only replied after you. The other comment was an example of what would happen if Shaytan was asked a question.

InshaAllah, next time I will try not to rush through in my reply, as I have a bad habit of responding quickly from where ever I am, In this case I was on my way to get some keys cut.

The differences (in opinion) are many and noted in many Hadith with records of incidents in which the Prophet (SAW) also affirms both opinions. I wont go into detail, all the info is in the links provided. There is nothing wrong in what I had said, unless misunderstood, again, InshaAllah I will take my time to reply and make things very clear.

You may not have read all the posts, I am not making accusations, I speak from what I see and get told, its not made up. Yher are some brothers whose intentions are good, just confused according to ulama.

Why not speak to a mufti close to you rather than speaking to us laymen. I recommend Mufti Abdur Rahman at Masjid e quba, he is qualified enough to pass judgement.
report post quote code quick quote reply
+2 -0Like x 2
back to top
Rank Image
Seifeddine-M's avatar
London
4,762
Brother
4,085
Seifeddine-M's avatar
#55 [Permalink] Posted on 29th September 2011 14:29
abu mohammed wrote:
Why not speak to a mufti close to you rather than speaking to us laymen. I recommend Mufti Abdur Rahman at Masjid e quba, he is qualified enough to pass judgement.


By Mufti Abdur Rahman

Why follow a madhhab instead of saheeh hadeeth?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0sw74VrV5Y&feature=channel_video_title

Following a Madhhab
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wLoUozZ3dc

The fitnah of picking and mixing between the madhhaahib
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHCGhVQriQo&feature=channel_video_title

report post quote code quick quote reply
No post ratings
back to top
Rank Image
abu mohammed's avatar
London
21,162
Brother
7,166
abu mohammed's avatar
#56 [Permalink] Posted on 29th September 2011 14:47
thesunnah wrote:
As for the links provided, I read a lot of what was written but found it full of misconceptions (which may be lies depending on the person who said it and why they said it) and slander and when I took some points back to the brother, he actually showed me in their books that some of the accusations are not as they seem.


Jazakallah on this note too. please bear in mind that there are many groups within the Salafi group itself, some agree and some disagree with others. What you have read so far is not based on One Masjid, it is based on work carried out by Ulama from around the world regarding those who reject following a school of thought, it is based on their findings of particular groups that they come across. Namely Ahle Hadith, Wahabi and Salafi. But they have break away groups too. So by seeing the text from one book does not mean the scholars research provided in the links are incorrect or based on one particular organization.

I asked a Salafi brother if he was following the Salafi group, he told me straight away, NO, infact he said there was a difference between them and the Saudi Salafi - Psuedo Salafi - etc. Even they admit that there are factions. However, they call themselves Hanbali (but these psuedo salafis, according to others as are not on the fiqh or aqeedah of imam ahmed)


report post quote code quick quote reply
+2 -0Like x 2
back to top
Rank Image
abu mohammed's avatar
London
21,162
Brother
7,166
abu mohammed's avatar
#57 [Permalink] Posted on 29th September 2011 16:39
Daywalk3r wrote:
Inshallah will be making some posts on this thread after Eid ........ in the mean time a talk below to ponder over.


Salaam, brother. Awaiting your input. Good talk, gets better from part 3 onwards.

report post quote code quick quote reply
+2 -0Like x 2
back to top
Yasin's avatar
London, UK
5,705
Brother
141
Yasin's avatar
#58 [Permalink] Posted on 29th September 2011 19:38
Salafi's never approach or speak to learned Ulamaa in this matter. I have experienced this for years.

thesunnah, we've had many groups try to argue here. Before posting again, please ensure you have read all the links which I posted and when you have more knowledge in the matter, you can post again. If you don't have knowledge in the matter, you can only ask questions.

If the "Salafi Brother" exists, kindly forward him here.

I agree with Seif, please do not argue with laymen as you clearly don't understand them. You have showed this by finding errors in sentences which have no errors and contradictions in statements which are clear and are not confusing except in the eyes of the confused.

Jazakallahu Khayr
report post quote code quick quote reply
+3 -0Like x 3
back to top
Rank Image
Offline
London, Stokenewingt
31
Brother
-83
#59 [Permalink] Posted on 29th September 2011 21:03
Assalaamu'alaikum

I spoke to the brother again and asked him why he doesn't speak to learned Ulama, he said he's spoken to a number of the ulama in Saudi Arabia where he studies and said they have numerous evidences to prove their aqeeda, fiqh, hadeeth and manhaj.

The difference I find between us and them is that they always have evidence from the Quran, Sunnah and the salaf whilst we tend to only use our interlect and degrade everyone elses telling them that they're not educated enough to understand the Quran that was revealed to an illeterate people.

Here are some questions I want you to clarify for me and can you please back it with evidence from either the quraan or the sunnah;

1) Is there any hadeeth stating we must blind follow a madhab after a hadeeth contradicting it has been proven authentic by the classical muhadditheen and an opinion has been derived from this hadeeth by the salaf of this ummah?

2) There is famous hadeeth of Abu Hurayrah in Bukhari and Muslim where he narrated a hadeeth of wudu then gave his explanation of it, from this hadeeth he derived that we wash our hands upto our shoulders instead of our elbows and our feet upto our shins instead of our ankles, my question is;
if we can accept that Abu Hurayra made a mistake, why can't we accept that someone whose status is lower than his can make a mistake?

3) The salafis of leswin road mosque do not only have ulama from the hanbali madhab, they have ulama from all four madhaahib whom they consult for their islamic affairs (such as establishing the eid prayer outside, making jam' between magrib and 'isha during the month where the twilight doesn't dissapear, doing mas over cotton socks etc), Ulama that reside in different parts of the world such as saudi arabia, egypt, mauritania, india, pakistan and many other countries, infact their very definition of an alim is completely different to ours, after knowing this, can you (yasin) please explain your statement;
"Salafi's never approach or speak to learned Ulamaa in this matter" ?

I apologise to our brothers if I have offended them in anyway, please forgive me for my shortcomings for I am a confused student only looking to find the truth.




report post quote code quick quote reply
+0 -4Dislike x 4
back to top
Rank Image
abu mohammed's avatar
London
21,162
Brother
7,166
abu mohammed's avatar
#60 [Permalink] Posted on 29th September 2011 21:39
We all follow the Quran and Sunnah, so please don't make assumptions. If you are using your intellect and not Quran and Sunnah, do not accuse us of doing so.

Have you or your friend read Mushkil al-aathar by Imam Tahaweeh. He has dealt with the Hadith that seem to be contradicting each other and has clarified it very well.
its a 16 volume collection, all the best.

There is a very famous Hadith in sahih bukhari which mentions that the Prophet urinated whilst standing. In bukhari, there is no other Hadith telling us to be seated, should we follow this Hadith. Exactly, Hadith are there for reference. Imams Bukhari has 9 volumes of hadith, of which he said that he had left out even more.

If your freinds follow the hanbali school, why did they do Eid on the same day as Saudi Arabia. The hanbali rule is very clear on that.

Please see links provided, ample answers for you.
report post quote code quick quote reply
+1 -0Like x 1
back to top

Jump to page: