I Have a Purpose

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#766 [Permalink] Posted on 7th December 2018 17:32
bint e aisha wrote:
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Actually,I am scared of you people,you,sipraomer,fod....

You all have very true and sincere but very intense emotions and I hate to hurt your feelings,but I did point out the ayaat of Qur'an being recited,the purpose was to invite you to think over the reason why of all ayaat,only those were selected....

When others wrote,I spoke my mind too....

But honestly,I am a little worried about this militant attitude in our youngsters,even if it is only verbal. It has damaged the Ummah in more than one ways.We need to be more thoughtful in our attitudes and our responses to events. Our fight is against non-believers,not our own people whom we should keep trying to convince....

Anyway,UTURN to Acha hota he....
According to our Prime minister :)
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#767 [Permalink] Posted on 7th December 2018 17:47
ALIF wrote:
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Scared of me? Oh no! Am I becoming extremist day by day? Ok I need to stop and think about it. جزاك الله خيرا

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Anyway,UTURN to Acha hota he....
According to our Prime minister :)


G behtreen qayadat ki nishani hai..everyone should learn.
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#768 [Permalink] Posted on 7th December 2018 17:52
Brother ALIF, by the way, those examples of U-turn given by our dear PM were more militant than the three you have named in your post will ever be. ;)
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#769 [Permalink] Posted on 8th December 2018 05:34
ALIF wrote:
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But honestly,I am a little worried about this militant attitude in our youngsters.....


Youngsters better have some energy otherwise they look pathetic.
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#770 [Permalink] Posted on 8th December 2018 06:30
I am not aware of the antecedents of the Yaqeen Institute but listen to this tiny bit.

She pinned it down. She got it right. And in spite of the machinations of the Islamophobes this is a sign that they are not fooling us anymore.

They thought that they will weaken us by targeting our women. Look what has happened.
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#771 [Permalink] Posted on 8th December 2018 06:35
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#772 [Permalink] Posted on 9th December 2018 11:17
Samir Hussain on Facebook


Ok, so I only watched 30 minutes of this. I can't really continue because I don't have 3 spare hours to watch the whole thing, and also because I can't stand how rude this Mohammad Shaikh character is. But a few points:

1) The Mufti in this video seems to not be very good at debating. In fact this video highlights the need for traditionally trained folk to come out of their seminary bubbles, learn more from modern academic sources and interact with real people.

2) Why is poor adab such a common feature with self-studied and self-claimed reformers, especially those with an anti-traditionalist, overly rationalist bent? Why do so many of them have a sneering and hateful attitude towards traditionally trained folk?

3) Who is this Mohammad Shaikh guy? The Muslim gentleman who showed me this video today was concerned because he said he is no longer able to tell who to trust when it comes to understanding Islam. Apparently he lives in Canada, but I've never heard of him before.

Here is a short clip of the original long video.
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#773 [Permalink] Posted on 9th December 2018 11:52
Maripat wrote:
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السلام علیکم
It's an old video and I have watched the whole of it. I know Mufti Abdul Baqi and I remember how much he was criticized for it when the video went viral. He himself had to clarify it several times. Below is his write-up from 2017.

*بیٹھک نمبر 4*

*اور میں دیکھتا ہی رہ گیا*

گذشتہ سال مئی 2016 کو بھائی دانش ریگل والوں کا فون آیا تھا کہ مفتی صاحب ایک شخص ہے جو ہمارے رشتہ داروں کو غلط چیزیں سکھاتا رہتا ہے، اس کے بارے میں کچھ باتیں سمجھا دیں تاکہ ان کو قائل کیا جاسکے..
میں نے پوچھا کہ بھائی کیا کہتا ہے؟ کہنے لگا کہ وہ قرآن فہمی کی دعوت دیتا ہے، میں نے کہا بھائی یہ تو بہت اعلی دعوت ہے، یہی تو امت میں کمی ہے کہ سورہ فاتحہ تک کا ترجمہ لوگوں کو نہیں آتا..
دانش کہنے لگا مفتی صاحب اس شخص کی باتیں بڑی عجیب ہیں.
میں نے کہا: مثلا؟
کہنے لگا
*کہ اس شخص نے حج کے موقع پر اپنی بیوی اور متعلقہ خواتین کو مردوں کی طرح گنجا کروایا تھا.*
(اس بات کے گواہ جامعہ بنوری ٹاؤن کے امام و خطیب مولانا طاہر صاحب ہیں)
یہ بات سن کر تو واقعی افسوس ہوا کہ کوئی شخص اتنی بڑی غلطی کیسے کرسکتا ہے، خیر بھائی دانش نے رات کو ایک ویب سائٹ کی لنک بھیجی iipc
*کوئی قرآن کا معنی اتنا مسخ کرسکتا ہے*
ویب سائٹ پر جا کر معلوم ہوا کہ اس شخص کا نام محمد شیخ ہے اور اس کو سننے کیلئے کچھ لوگ جمع ہوتے ہیں.
البتہ انداز کچھ جانا پہچانا سا لگا، کچھ دیر بعد یاد آیا کہ یہ تو بابر چوھدری الرحمن الرحیم ڈاٹ کام(com.) والوں کا طرز ہے جو مشہور منکر حدیث ہے
(بعد میں معلوم ہوا کہ وہ اس شخص کا شاگرد رہا ہے)
مختلف کلپ سرسری طور پر دیکھنے کے بعد اس نتیجے پر پہنچا کہ یہ شخص انتہائی غلط ترجمہ کررہا ہے اور بھونڈے انداز میں اپنی دلیل پکڑ رہا ہے،
بھائی دانش کا اصرار بڑھتا گیا کہ مفتی صاحب! اس سے ایک ملاقات تو لازم ہے، میں اس وقت جامعہ بنوری ٹاؤن کے پاس "مکتبة النور" پر کچھ کتابوں کی خریداری کررہا تھا، میں نے بھائی دانش کو وہیں پر بلایا اور کچھ اردو اور انگریزی ترجمے خرید کر (خالد بن ولید روڈ، نزد نورانی کباب ہاؤس) اس کی جگہ پہنچ گئے.

*iipc*
پہلی بار اس نام کو سنا تھا اور قرآنی تعلیمات کے حوالے سے سنا تو خیال یہی تھا کہ کچھ روشن خیالی تو ہوگی، اور قرآن کا نام لیوا ادارہ ہونے کی نسبت سے وہاں کے عملے اور کارکنان میں دین اور سنت کی جھلک نظر آئےگی..
لیکن دروازے سے داخل ہوتے ہی یہ ساری خوش فہمی ہوا ہوگئی کہ جنہوں نے استقبال کیا وہ سر سے پیر تک مغربی لباس اور مغربی صورت والے تھے، اور جس ہال میں لےجایا گیا وہ ہال بھی درسگاہ کے بجائے ایک اسٹیج کی طرح بنی ہوئی جگہ تھی جس میں ہر طرف کیمرے لگے ہوئے تھے، گویا ایک اسٹوڈیو کا منظر پیش ہورہا تھا، دور دور تک قرآنی تعلیمات اور قرآن کی روشنی کی کوئی جھلک نظر نہ آئی اور نہ ہی وہاں موجود کوئی شخص صبغةاللہ یعنی اللہ کے رنگ میں رنگا ہوا نظر آیا اور نہ ہی چہروں پر اہل قرآن والوں کی چمک نظر آئی.

*◇ محمد شیخ:*
چونکہ ویبسائٹ پر فقط ایک ہی ویڈیو دیکھی تھی اور بعد میں پتہ چلا کہ وہ تو دس بارہ سال پرانی تھی، اور جو محمد شیخ سامنے آیا وہ یکسر مختلف تھا.
وزن کافی بڑھا ہوا، عمر تقریباً ساٹھ سال کے قریب، ڈھیلے ڈھالے مغربی لباس میں ملبوس، ہلکی خشخشی داڑھی، لمبا قد، گورا چہرہ، لیکن قرآن فہمی کا دعوٰی کرنے والے شخص کی کوئی صفت نظر نہ آئی.

● *کاش کہ صداقت بھی ہو زمانے میں*
ویڈیو دیکھ کر اندازہ ہوتا ہے کہ یہ تو ابتداء ہی سے بنائی گئی ہے، جبکہ ہم سے کافی دیر بعد اجازت لی گئی کہ اور کہا گیا کہ چونکہ ہمارے ریکارڈ کیلئے ہم یہ بناتے ہیں لہذا اگر آپ اجازت دیں تو..... تو میں نے ان کے انتظامی معاملات کی بنیاد پر اجازت دینا مناسب سمجھا.

کچھ ساتھی اب ویڈیو دیکھ کر کافی غصہ کررہے ہیں اور بہت ساری باتوں پر اعتراض کررہے ہیں کہ آپ کو ایسا کرنا چاہیئے تھا اور ویسا کرنا چاہیئے تھا،
اس سلسلے میں پہلی درخواست تو یہ ہے کہ میں اس شخص سے مناظرہ کرنے کی نیت سے گیا ہی نہیں تھا بلکہ میں تو اس شخص کا موقف جاننے کی کوشش میں تین گھنٹے تک اس کو برداشت کرتا رہا، البتہ چونکہ وہ اس طرح کے ماحول بنانے میں ماہر شخص تھا تو اس نے ایک مناظرانہ ماحول بنایا جبکہ مجھے جاننے والے لوگ جانتے ہیں کہ مجھے مناظرے کے فن سے دور تک کا تعلق نہیں، میں دلیل کی بنیاد پر بات چیت کرنے کا عادی ہوں اور دلیل دے کر قائل کرنے کی کوشش کرتا ہوں اور دلیل سے قائل بھی ہوجاتا ہوں، اور اسی نیت سے میں محمد شیخ کے سامنے بیٹھا ہوا تھا.

■ *22000 واٹ کا جھٹکا:*
مجھے 22000 واٹ کا جھٹکا اس وقت لگا جب وہاں پہنچ کر تعارف کے بعد بات کی ابتداء کرنے کیلئے موضوع درکار تھا اور فقط ایک ادھوری ویڈیو کلپ دیکھ کر جو غلط ترجمہ میرے سامنے آیا تھا وہ اس آیت کا تھا:
فلا وربك لایؤمنون حتی یحکموك فیما شجر بینھم

کہ یہ لوگ ایمان والے ہو ہی نہیں سکتے جب تک کہ آپ کو حاکم نہ بنائیں یعنی آپ کو حکمران نہ بنائیں..
جبکہ درست ترجمہ یہ ہے کہ جب تک آپ کو فیصلہ کرنے والا نہ بنائیں.
جب اس بات پر گرفت کی گئی تو محمد شیخ بری طرح پریشان ہوا کہ حکم یحکم تحکیما باب تفعیل کا صیغہ ہے اور اس کا معنی ک

سی کو درمیان میں فیصل بنانا ہے نہ کہ حاکم اور حکمران بنانا..
لیکن چونکہ اس شخص کا مقصد محض مناظرے کا بازار گرم کرنا تھا تو اس نے سوال کو نظر انداز کرتے ہوئے تورات اور ان مختلف موضوعات پر بات چیت شروع کی جن پر اس کی اپنی گرفت اچھی تھی..
*اور مجھے چونکہ ابتداء ہی میں شدید جھٹکا اس وقت لگا جب اس شخص نے تمام مفسرین، محدثین، فقہائے کرام اور اہل لغت کی باتوں کو مسترد کرتے ہوئے اس بات کا دعوٰی کیا کہ کسی بھی انسان کی تفسیر کو لینا یہ تحریف شمار ہوگا چاہے وہ شخص محمد علیہ السلام کی کیوں نہ ہو.*

*اس شخص کی نظر میں تورات انجیل نامی کسی کتاب کو اللہ تعالٰی نے نازل نہیں فرمایا، بلکہ شروع سے لےکر آج تک صرف ایک کتاب نازل ہوئی ہے اور وہ قرآن مجید ہے جس کا نزول ابھی بھی جاری ہے اور تورات اور انجیل نامی کتابوں کا عقیدہ بلکہ قرآن کے علاوہ دنیا میں کسی بھی کتاب کا عقیدہ رکھنا گمراہی اور مولویوں کی چال ہے.*

*اس شخص کی نظر میں صحابی رسول صرف ایک ہی ہیں اور وہ زید بن حارثہ رضی اللہ عنہ ہیں، بقیہ تمام صحابہ علماء کے عقلی تخیلات ہیں، اور ایسا کوئی بھی نہیں، لہذا یہ کہتا ہے کہ ابوبکر صدیق اور عمر فاروق رضی اللہ عنہما کا جنت جانا یقینی نہیں، البتہ میرا یعنی محمد شیخ کا جنت میں جانا یقینی ہے.*
(نعوذ باللہ من ذلك )

اس شخص کی نظر میں آج تک قرآن مجید کا صحیح ترجمہ حضور اکرم صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم سے لےکر آج تک کسی نے درست نہیں کیا اور نہ ہی کسی کو قرآن کے ترجمے کا حق حاصل ہے *البتہ میں یعنی محمد شیخ نے براہ راست اللہ تعالٰی سے قرآن سیکھا ہے، لہذا مجھے کسی سے پوچھنے کی ضرورت نہیں بلکہ میرا ترجمہ اور میرا مطلب اللہ کی جانب سے ہی ہے.*
اس لئے یہ شخص قرآن مجید میں "امی" کا معنی حضور علیہ السلام لینا غلط سمجھتا ہے، بلکہ امی کی تشریح یوں کرتا ہے کہ "ام" چونکہ عربی میں ماں کو کہتے ہیں اور یاء نسبت والی ہے، لہذا اب معنی ہے "ماں والا نبی" اور ماں والے نبی عیسی علیہ السلام ہیں، لہذا "امی" سے مراد عیسی علیہ السلام ہی ہونگے.

■ *مناظرہ اور مکالمے میں فرق:*
جیسے پہلے عرض کرچکا ہوں کہ نہ میں مناظرے کا مزاج رکھتا ہوں نہ ہی اسکا کوئی تجربہ، بلکہ مکالمے کا مزاج ہے.
*مکالمے* میں سامنے والے کو بار بار اس بات کا موقعہ دیا جاتا ہے کہ وہ اپنی بات کو کسی دلیل سے ثابت کرے، لہذا اس کی گرفت نہیں کی جاتی اور اس کو غلطی کی طرف متوجہ کیا جاتا ہے، اور یہی میرا مقصد تھا کہ اس شخص کو اپنی غلطی کا احساس ہوجائے، اسی لئے بار بار "اچھا آگے چلیں" کہہ کر....
اور جو بات درست ہوتی اس کو بلاجھجھک قبول بھی کیا گیا...
جبکہ *مناظرے* میں یہ یوتا ہے کہ سامنے والے کو خاموش کرنا اور اس پر اتمام حجت کرنا اور اس کی غلطی کو پکڑ کر بار بار اسی کا تکرار کرنا..
چونکہ نہ میرا مزاج مناظرے کا ہے نہ مجھے اس فن کے ابجد کا علم ہے، لہذا اس ملاقات کو مکالمہ اور مباحثہ تو کہا جاسکتا ہے لیکن اس کو مناظرہ کہنا درست نہیں.

▪ *خلاصہ کلام*
اس شخص محمد شیخ سے ملاقات ایک اتفاقیہ ملاقات تھی جس میں نہ نظریہ کا علم تھا اور نہ اسکی ذہنیت کا، اس لحاظ سے اس بات چیت سے فقط اس کا نقطہ نظر اخذ کیا جاسکتا تھا اور وہی اخذ کیا کہ اس سے بحث مباحثہ محض وقت کا ضیاع ہے، اس لئے مئی 2016 کے بعد نہ کبھی اس کا تذکرہ کیا اور نہ دوبارہ اس طرف جانے کا دل چاہا، لیکن اب چونکہ انہوں نے خیانت کرتے ہوئے ایک مکمل محفل کے چند ٹکڑے یہ کہہ کر پھیلانے شروع کئے کہ فتح شکست ہوئی اور حق باطل کا فیصلہ ہوا ہے تو یہ چند کلمات لکھ دیئے تاکہ اس واقعے کا مکمل پس منظر واضح ہو..
لیکن اس جگہ سے نکلتے وقت جو افسوس تھا وہ یہ تھا اس کے سینٹر میں لفاظی تو خوب ملی اور بحث مباحثے کے شوقین دماغوں کو تو جمع کیا لیکن عمل کی لائن سے ایک شخص بھی ایسا نہیں ملا جس کو دیکھ کر دل خوش ہو، صحابہ کرام پر تنقید والے تو اس سینٹر میں ملے لیکن صحابہ کرام کی تقلید والے نہیں مل سکے.
اس بات کی ترغیب اس کے سینٹر پر عام ہے کہ مجھ سے اس موضوع پر بات چیت اور مجھ سے اس بات پر مناظرہ کرلو، لیکن عملی زندگی کی نہ ترغیب ہے اور نہ اس کی کہیں پر جھلک نظر آتی ہے..
اور جو حضرات اب اس شخص کے سوالات کے جوابات دے رہے ہیں اگر ان کا مقصد اپنے لوگوں کے ذہنوں کو صاف رکھنا ہے تو وہ ضرور کوشش جاری رکھیں، اور اگر مقصد اس شخص کو منانا ہے تو اس فکر کو جانے دیں کیونکہ قرآن مجید اس کی نظر میں تو حضور اکرم علیہ السلام کو بھی سمجھ نہیں آیا تھا.
(نعوذ باللہ من ذلك)
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#774 [Permalink] Posted on 9th December 2018 12:05
Google Translation


Understand some things so that they can convince them.
I asked what brother says He said that he invites the Quran, I said, this is a very big invitation, that is why the Ummah wit does not translate people to the winner.
Danish said that Mani Sahib's words are very strange.
I said: for example?
He said
* That person had made his wife and related women punished like men on the occasion of Hajj. *
(The testimony of this is Imam Vajpayee of Maulana Tahir Sahib of Jamia Banori Town)
By listening to this, it really regrets how a person can make such a big mistake, good brother Danish sent me a link to the site at night iipc
* The meaning of any Qur'an can be so distorted *
Going to the website, it came to know that the name of the person is Muhammad Shaikh and some people gather to hear it.
However, the style seemed to be known to be known, after some time it was remembered by the people of the famous comrades of Babar Chuhri ur Rahman.
(Later he found that he was a student of this person)
After seeing different clips, it came to the conclusion that this person is doing a very wrong translation and is holding his arguments in the bold style,
Brother Danish insisted that Mufti! It is necessary to have a meeting, I was currently purchasing some books on "Mu'minib-ul-Nahar" near Jamia Banori Town, I called Brother Danish and bought some Urdu and English translations (Khalid Bin Waled Road, Near Nabani Kabab House) reached its place.

* iipc *
The first time this name was heard and heard from the Qur'anic teachings, it was the idea that some brightness would be, and the name of the Qur'an would be seen by the staff and workers in the way of religion and Sunnah.
But after entering the door, it became very happy that those who welcomed were western clothes and western people from the head to the east, and the hall was taken to the hall, rather the hall was a place like a stage. Everywhere around the camera was wearing, as a studio scene was present, there was no glimpse of the Quranic teachings and the light of the Qur'an, nor was there any person present there. Nor did the brightness of the Holy Quran appear on faces.

* ◇ Mohammad Sheikh: *
Since only one video on WebSite was seen and later it was found that it was 10 years old, and the one who came in front of Muhammad Shaikh was quite different.
Weight was increased, the age was almost sixty years, dressed in loose shorts of Western wear, light dried beard, long tall, dark face, but the person who claimed to be a fanaticist did not seem to have any idea.

● * Wish that the truth is also in the time *
By watching the video it is estimated that it has been made from the beginning itself, while it was permitted after a long time and it was said that since we make it for our record, so if you allow it I considered it appropriate to allow them based on administrative matters.

Some colleagues are now getting angry by watching the video and objecting to many things that you should have done and should have done,
The first request in this regard is that I did not have the intention of discussing this person, but I still tried to know the person's position for three hours, but since he made such an environment When I was a specialist, he made a scenic environment, while people who know me do not belong to far from the art of debate, I am accustomed to interacting with arguments and try to convince me by arguments. I am convinced with argument, and in this intention I was sitting in front of Muhammad Shaikh.

■ * 22,000 Watt shock: *
The shock of a 22,000watt was when I got there and started talking about an urgent video clip after the introduction and the wrong translation that came in front of me was the verse:

Playbacks are also available for free WiMAX


They can not be believers as long as you do not rule, do not rule over you.
While the correct translation is that unless you make a decision.
When it was captured, Muhammad Shaikh was very worried that the order of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was a symbol of interpretation and meaning

C is making decisions in between, not ruling and ruling.
But since the purpose of this person was to heat the market just for the debate, he ignored the question and started discussing the topics and topics he had on his own grip.
* And since I started a serious shock at the beginning when this person dismissed all the interpreters, scholars, folks and elaborate words, claiming that taking any interpretation of any human comment would be counted whether Why is not that person of Muhammad? *

* Allah did not send down a book named Taurat Gospel, but from beginning to time only one book has been revealed, and it is a Quran which is still descending, and the books of Taurat and Gospel Apart from belief, rather than the Quran, the belief of any book in the world is the trespass and the trespass of the Mawlawi. *

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, "The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said," O Messenger of Allah! It's not sure to go to heaven, but my name is, it is definitely going to go to heaven in heaven. *
(Noo
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#775 [Permalink] Posted on 9th December 2018 12:24
Quote:
Google Translation


Understand some things so that they can convince them.
I asked what brother says He said that he invites the Quran, I said, this is a very big invitation, that is why the Ummah wit does not translate people to the winner.
Danish said that Mani Sahib's words are very strange.
I said: for example?
He said
* That person had made his wife and related women punished like men on the occasion of Hajj. *
(The testimony of this is Imam Vajpayee of Maulana Tahir Sahib of Jamia Banori Town)


Lol
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#776 [Permalink] Posted on 11th December 2018 07:52
We Need a Good Cheer or Two


Life is difficult.
It always has been. But it is more so in present times.
Life for Muslims on the average is much more difficult than other social groups on the average.
Just look at the Gulf region, Afghanistan, India, Burma as well as the west.
Muslims are in rather difficult situation of various levels and hues and shades.

I keep writing about these problems only. My approach has been academic for I have been trying to understand the situation in which Muslim Ummah finds itself today. To some extent I do understand the situation. To some extent I also have started getting ideas to get to the solution.

Yet in the mean time I at every moment had this very strong urge and feeling that I should make such posts that should bring joy, solace, relaxation, calm and ease to the minds and hearts of my fellow Muslims. What is the benefit of a Muslim if he can not bring good cheer to his fellow Muslims?

In fact I did make some lame duck attempts towards that direction. I did not create a jokes thread but good cheer threads I did make. My Glad Tidings thread was for this purpose only. My Motivational and Nasheed thread was for that purpose only. My Keep Enjoying thread was again for the same purpose.

Sadly, I must admit, it all failed rather miserably. There are certain things that I am plain incapable of doing. Like giving solace to Muslim Ummah in difficult times, the times in which we are living. It will be disingenuous of me to apologize for this failure for I am certainly not responsible for the things that I am not endowed with the capabilities to realize. yet sad I do feel on this failing and short coming.

And then the light dawned, in small amounts and different installments. At one point of time the thought came to me that whatever I try to bring good cheer to my brothers and sisters the real solace for a believer comes from the thoughts of the rewards of the hereafter only. The rest is really a chimera. Allah has already destined Rizq for us in this world and that He shall deliver to us. This Rizq includes good cheer and happiness of this world. All said and done this is all temporary. So any worldly cheer is merely fleeting in nature.

This does not mean that we should not try to bring worldly joy, solace and ease for our fellow Muslim brothers and sisters. We must do that but real joy and solace belongs to hereafter only.

That was one enlightenment that dawned upon this lowly self.

Then there was another revelation that really made me feel silly. I has noticed that MS crowd usually jumps to the posts that talk of a Dua or a Qur'anic Verse or inspiring incidents from the lives of Rasoolallah SAW or our elders or the lives of those people who were the saviours of the Islamic spirit. No thread or post cheers our brothers and sisters as a Supplication post does. Suddenly brothers and sisters rush to it in spite of the fact that all of these are already there in our Dua booklets. In spite of the fact that we keep receiving these on whatsapp and otherwise.

So our brothers and sisters were already using these sources of cheers and solace. After all Remembrance of Allah SWT Brings Solace to Hearts!

This realization has lifted a huge burden from my soul. Of course it does not mean that we can stop giving those consolation that we give to each other. On the contrary we must increase that. My point here is that there can not be any consolation for the sake of consolation. There has to be a cause for rejoicing and the real permanent source of joy is Jannah only. Rest of the joys are temporary and if we get a news in that direction we must enjoy it.

For example I rejoice at the thoughts of Mahathir Muhammed, Rajab Taiyyab Erdugan and Imran Khan. (Please do not bring the critical angles into this discussion). For me these are good cheers.

Finally one may ask as to why did I feel silly after above realizations? The silliness was in the thoughts that I was piqued at the popularity of Dua posts at MS. "Muslim Ummah is reeling under pressure from Islamophobes and we are just recycling Duas and Supplications and trying to escape from reality by hiding behind prayers". That was the silly thought. Basically when Ummah has the Supplications then she does not need my phony worldly assurances to cheer up.

Ameen.
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#777 [Permalink] Posted on 12th December 2018 05:14
Samir Hussain on Ath'ari-Ashari


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Facebook Post


*****
The Original Post

I spent an hour or so pondering over the Ash’ari/Athari polemics and realized the massive impact this has on the perception and importance of tradition between these two theological groups. The only way I could get myself to stop the flow of thoughts was to write them, hence this article. At any rate, this is more a summary for myself rather than an exposition for others.

The Atharis

For Atharis the names and attributes of Allah are to be understood according to their apparent meanings and any apparent contradictions between the apparent meanings of these names and attributes and the intellect is explained as the intellect’s failure to understand the essence of Allah. So in reality there is no contradiction and the mind must hold back from making judgement on any seeming contradiction that appears.

Any anthropomorphic element of these names and attributes is negated using the admission that their modality (kayfiyyah) can never be known, but that the apparent meaning of the name or attribute must be affirmed, as the job of the believer is to submit to the texts and not question them. The modality is left to the knowledge of Allah Himself, and we simply say that the modality is as befits His majesty.

Names or attributes cannot be considered allegorical rather only metaphorical if the Arabs considered it so. So for instance if the Arabs before ~150AH understood the word ‘yad’ or hand to have a metaphorical meaning as power, then only in that case can the word ‘yad’ be understood as referring to power in the Qur’an. Otherwise if the allegory was only deduced in the post-classical Arabic period, i.e. that the word ‘yad’ means power, then this is rejected as it did not come from the Arabic language itself. The basis for this argument is that the Qur’an was revealed in pure and simple Arabic that should have been sufficient for the philosophically untrained Arabs to understand and attain a sound theological understanding of the Qur’an.

So for example, in the last third of the night, where Allah is described as descending ‘nazala’ for the faithful, it is not to be asked whether this descent is true or allegorical, rather that the nature or ‘kayfiyyah’ of the descent must not be questioned, but just accepted at its apparent meaning without questioning. The word ‘nuzul’ was not understood metaphorically by the Arabs so there can be no second meaning to the word.

Therefore, the apparent meanings of the Qur’an and Sunnah are king and speak for themselves. Inter-Qur’an and inter-Sunnah exegesis explains much of our variances in understanding the levels of interpretation of different texts. Tradition must be understood from the lens of the Qur’an and Sunnah, not the opposite. Scholars can err, but the apparent meanings of the texts can never err.

In conclusion, this is understood to be the more authentic understanding of Islam as the salaf or righteous predecessors (i.e. first 3 generations of Muslims) were known to understand the names and attributes of Allah by their apparent meanings (ithbat), and not get too involved in any allegorical possibilities in the meaning of these names.

The Ash’aris

For the Ash’aris it is permissible to think of Allah’s names and attributes allegorically (ta’wil). The intellect via rational thought and reason can discover the Creator independently of sacred text, as well as determine some necessary attributes of the Creator as a result. For example, by observing that much of reality is contingent, the intellect can determine that the contingent reality it observes must have been caused by something, which as a result of reality being contingent must be an unimaginably powerful being with its own independent will, the latter demonstrating that it is a living being.

Similarly, the intellect can observe reality and determine that physical and biological reality shows intelligence in its composition and evolution, therefore this Creator must also be unimaginably intelligent.

As this list of necessary attributes builds (independent of sacred text and upto 20 different ones according to the Ash’aris) it is determined that the reality of this being is unimaginable and indescribable according to human parameters. Therefore, when one arrives at a text that in its apparent wording, describes the Creator as otherwise, or with apparently anthropomorphic or material connotations, a contradiction presents itself. The conclusion of the intellect, seen as an extension of the Qur’an own exhortations for Muslims to use the intellect to arrive at the truth, is seen as a certain and epistemically powerful conclusion.

To solve this seeming contradiction, the problematic text is then assigned an allegorical meaning to harmonize it with the theological conclusion of the intellect. So using our example of ‘nazala’ again, the descent is described allegorically as the descent of Allah’s mercy rather than the descent of the Creator Himself, as to describe the Creator as descending would assign Him a direction, and thus a 3-dimensional existence, which makes the Creator into either a material or anthropomorphic entity, thus violating the verses of the Qur’an condemning this as well as the intellectual process that led to believing in the Creator in the first place. Names and attributes found in the texts are thus understood according to the 20 necessary attributes.

The Ash’aris were very aware that the salaf did not assign allegorical meanings to the names and attributes of Allah, so they considered their understanding of theology to be an evolution of the theology of the salaf – an attempt to harmonize textual truths with the newly discovered philosophical and theological truths that Muslims had uncovered from philosophy. Unlike the Atharis, they interpreted the salaf to be affirming the wording of Allah’s names and attributes, instead of their apparent meanings, which they left to the Creator’s knowledge (tafwidh).

The Ash’aris did not extend this ‘natural’ aspect of theology (I.e. the determination of theology independently from text) to ethics and law, as is clear from the books of usul-ul-fiqh, the sheer majority of which were written by the Ash’aris. Ethics and Law, it was made clear, was to be determined from the texts, and could not be determined via the intellect, which was the position of the Mu’tazilah. The Ash’aris as a whole did discuss some aspects of natural ethics and law, but never ventured into ‘hard’ natural ethics and law in the same way the Mu’tazilah did, or to the lesser extent, the Maturidis and Hanafis.

As such, to maintain this delicate imbalance in allowing natural theology but restricting natural ethics, Ash’aris came to rely more on tradition as the restrictive element, not the apparent meanings of the Qur’an and Sunnah. Tradition became emphasized, and it was the lens through which the texts were to be understood. Individual scholars can err, but the overwhelming majority or consensus of scholars erring was considered a theological travesty, as how could the Creator misguide His most pious and dedicated servants, and in the most serious of matters – theology, as well?

This emphasis on tradition may also be why the Hanafis have emphasized taqlid much more highly than the other schools. Since the school’s usul is so susceptible to becoming a full-fledged Mu’tazili vehicle via Maturidi ethics and Hanafi rules on using hadith, it would make sense over-emphasize taqlid as a restrictive measure. This is why perhaps Shafiis were much more lenient in allowing their adherents to make taqlid of other schools and even outside the four schools (according to a fatwa by ibn Hajr al-Haytami) as opposed to the Hanafis. It may also be why the Hanafis stressed consensus more than other schools, although I have to research this more to be sure.

Also, theological tradition could evolve, as it had from the time of the salaf to the time of the Ash’aris. And this is why Ash’aris often varied in their interpretation of texts and the allegorical meanings assigned to them, as well other aspects of theology. For example Maliki Ash’aris like Ibn Juzayy refused to assign the names and attributes of the Creator allegorical meanings, instead electing to do tafwidh as the salaf had done. Note however, that the development of Ash’ari theology could also be seen as extension of the time of the salaf if we look at things via the concept of Bid’ah Mahmudah (see my article on Bid’ah for more information).

The Ensuing Discussion

The Atharis and Ash’aris had many criticisms against each other. For example, Imam ibn Taymiyyah argued that the Ash’aris by assuming a contradiction between the intellect and the texts, were landing themselves in a contradiction by saying that the very intellect that had helped them arrive at the texts was now proving to be an impediment. He also argued that intellectual arguments were not required to obtain knowledge of the Creator’s existence, as it was a form of a priori knowledge exemplified by the the concept of fitrah elucidated in sacred texts.

Ash’aris on the other hand argued that saying the Athari ithbat was self-contradictory, as to say the modality was unknown rendered the name or attribute meaningless, and thus the meaning unknown as well. Also, to affirm these meanings for Allah meant assigning Allah anthropomorphic characteristics. It was not enough to say that the modality was unknown, because the meaning of the word was known in the Arabic language and you had assigned that to the Creator.

And they each have rebuttals of each other on these issues.

My Personal Views

I consider this discussion important for my own faith – although not so for the masses – as I wish to meet Allah on the last day with a conception of His majesty and text that He will be most pleased with. It is for this reason that I studied both the Athari and Ash’ari theologies during my studies and kept an open mind to the arguments of each. I do consider both (together with the Maturidis) to be 3 distinctive yet orthodox schools of Sunni theology in the same way that the fiqh madhhabs are 4 distinctive yet orthodox schools of Islamic Law. It seems absurd to me that Allah out of His mercy would allow such exceedingly pious, knowledgeable, sincere and intelligent Muslim scholars to differ in such fine details of theology with penalty in their afterlife.

Perhaps these schools are also manifestations of natural variances in human thought. For example in the same way the human beings naturally gravitate in a secular environment to becoming political, fiscal or ethical conservatives or liberals, perhaps within a Muslim or Islam-affected mindset this is the natural spectrum of variance upon which Muslim thought diffuses. In either case, I find the variance to be normative, though excluding more extreme cases, like Kharijism and Mu’tazilism.

I personally find myself leaning towards the Ash’ari perspective as I have found tradition to be a much more important and powerful restrictive element in the discussion on the control of interpretive choices, especially given how indubitably important tradition becomes in fiqh and how great of a role consensus plays in the Shariah overall. I find the emphasis on the vague notion of ‘apparent meanings’ to be quite distracting from the complexity that is linguistic interpretation of the Qur’an and Sunnah and delicate balance that exists between the mantuq (voiced) and mafhum (understood) implications of texts. This is why Imam al-Shafii for example, in his al-Risalah, refers to tradition and consensus as controlling factors in the interpretation of texts much more emphatically than linguistic reasons, as due to his high level of linguistic capability he was able to determine the complexities of the process of interpretation to quite a high level. Also I feel that many of the narrations from the salaf are open to interpretation on these issues, and there may be reason to believe the salaf had a much more diverse and varied range of approaches on these issues.

But this is my preference, and I do not wish to impose it on anyone who seeks to follow otherwise. I am still open to changing my mind, and I doubt that this is a conversation that will end in my my mind and heart. May Allah reward us all for our efforts to arrive at the truth, keep our intentions pure and keep us sincere. If anything I would love to see a synthesis of the schools, but I’m not sure if this is possible.

Resulting views of tradition and my thoughts

To me this theological back and forth is relatively inconsequential. As I’ve mentioned, I believe the 3 to be schools rooted in orthodoxy. There is a strong argument to be made, I believe, in linking Hanafi usul to Maturidism, Shafii usul to Ash’arism and Hanbali usul to Atharism, although I have not read any lengthy exploration of this possibility. Although I do anger often at the exaggerations of each school towards the other, and sometimes even the episodes of takfir that seem to be make an appearance now and then.

What is more interesting to me, however, is the resulting epistemological attitude and interpretation of the text-tradition relationship, and especially how that evolves from what at first seems like a completely disconnected conversation on theology.

It is not uncommon to see Atharis stress the importance of keeping Islam pure according to its earliest understandings – hence the popularity of Salafism, which I see as a natural ideological consequence of Atharism, while it is not uncommon to see Ash’aris gravitate more towards Sufis tariqahs and other more outward and emphasized aspects of traditionalism. Even on the social and cultural level, Atharis seem much more willing and able to appropriate modern social and cultural artifacts than traditionalists, who often extend the meaning of tradition to beyond intellectual understanding of Islam to adab, manners, dress, customs and family matters. Although I did not discuss it here at length, what is also not surprising to me is the Maturidi/Hanafi propensity to gravitate towards varying types of ‘hard’ rationalism like Mu’tazilism.

It also plays against them. For example Atharis in their attempt to balance devalued tradition with complex fiqh issues can gravitate towards very maqasid-dependent forms of ijtihad and fatwa which can devalue the very principle of championing the apparent meanings of scripture and lose the intended ‘submission’ aspect, while Ash’aris can over-emphasize or ossify parts of the tradition to the point where the intended point or objective of the tradition becomes lost.

As someone who I feel occupies a rare middle ground between Ash’arism and Atharism (as I see both sides and sympathize with some aspects of Atharism), I do see the need for a nuanced, vibrant and fluid form of traditionalism, where we still consider tradition and fluency in it as paramount yet do not stop the process of engaging in review and reformulation via either going back to Qur’an and Sunnah again, or integrating modern science, philosophy and physics-based cosmology into our theology, ethics and law.
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#778 [Permalink] Posted on 12th December 2018 18:06
ALIF wrote:
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Quote:
Actually,I am scared of you people,you,sipraomer,fod....


haha! Yeah especially this sipraomer guy should be kicked out of this forum. He is polluting the minds of otherwise peaceful constructive Muslims.
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#779 [Permalink] Posted on 12th December 2018 18:54
sipraomer wrote:
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No Akhi,we embrace you with all the love,respect and understanding you deserve :)

By being scared,I meant 'not to hurt' the feelings of anyone of you intentionally......

In a very untraditional way,my teacher (may Allah have mercy on his soul and fill his grave with noor) accepted my Bayah request on 3 points :

1.That I will try to keep my Muslim brothers/sisters safe from the harm of my tongue and my hands

2. That i would choose for them what i choose for myself

3. That i will try to serve all human beings to the best of my abilities,all my life

When he noticed my hesitation,as I was aware I may not be able to do so,he insisted,saying,"these are masnoon deeds,every Muslim should be doing it". I said 'InshaAllah'....and he considered it enough...

I could not fulfil my promise 100%, my bad...

But I do try it off and on..
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#780 [Permalink] Posted on 13th December 2018 02:55
ALIF wrote:
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Asalam o Alaikum,

No akhi, You didn't hurt my feelings. I took it lightly and showed my dry humour. I guess I am not good at it.
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