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#61 [Permalink] Posted on 19th October 2013 13:55
@desi tadka, click edit on your post above to see how I've added the image to your post.

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#62 [Permalink] Posted on 19th October 2013 15:17
abu mohammed wrote:
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I clicked but I didn't see how, anyways its good the way it is now, I think u can delete my post where the image just shows up as an attachment, it showed up i think that way because i posted it from my phone, the image is really grainy..

that targus bag is really a laptop backpack, when not using it for work it doubles up as a sehroza bag - and its amazingly tough with lots of space lots of pockets, i posted it bcoz i will be doing a thread for tabligh gear. inshaAllah.

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#63 [Permalink] Posted on 19th October 2013 16:45
masha'Allah.
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#64 [Permalink] Posted on 19th October 2013 17:03
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#65 [Permalink] Posted on 20th October 2013 18:16
The piece about how 'some ruin Haj with bad behaviour' by sleeping under trucks made me a little sad. If the truck isn't being used and people are looking for shade (including children), why not? I'm not offended by such sights nor would I classify it as 'bad behaviour.' Is the shade of humongous buildings (that offend the senses of many) okay but humbly taking shelter under a truck not? No, I don't find it offensive at all and in fact, I find it beautiful that you see people resting in various places all around the City, at peace.

What I find offensive is the amount of garbage and empty bottles lying around. There shouldn't be a spec of garbage anywhere. I'd rather stuff my personal garbage into my shoe bag than leave it on the streets that Rasulullah (sallallahu alaihi wa sallem) traversed.
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#66 [Permalink] Posted on 20th October 2013 18:55

During Hajj we had a massive sand storm in Muzdalifah and had no choice but to sleep under the buses to protect ourselves. We found the most centremost bus so the blowing of sand can be shielded from all sides.

Rest of the Hajees tried to evade things (unsuccessfully) nd kept awake all night while I slept like a baby. The next day everybody else was tired while I was fine.

Rest of Hajees had all sorts of issues with shielding under the buses, pride, safety, fear etc; otherwise there was plenty of space!

Alhumdolillah!

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#67 [Permalink] Posted on 20th October 2013 20:41
Quote:
The piece about how 'some ruin Haj with bad behaviour' by sleeping under trucks made me a little sad.


Unfortunately, the problem with such incidents is that emergency vehicles can't get through, public transport can't get through.

And the worst thing is that 90% of these people are illegal hajjis, i.e. they have come for hajj without any paperwork or visa. These people cause the chaos where it's not needed.

The authorities have everything planned out and mostly goes to plan, but when there are people like this, then there is extreme chaos and the plans don't work.
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#68 [Permalink] Posted on 20th October 2013 21:00
abu mohammed wrote:
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As you can see, the news thread shows a major drop in number of hujjaj. Only 1.98 million Muslims. Can you imagine how many there were if the 65% of illegal hajjis who werwnt there this year, how much chaos they could have caused.

www.muftisays.com/forums/27-sharing-portal/5907-makkah-ne...

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#69 [Permalink] Posted on 20th October 2013 23:30
I don't know brother, but...

(1) if these trucks are already parked, what do emergency vehicles have to do with it? If the vehicle has to be moved, isn't it simple enough to let people know, start the engine and allow people sufficient time to move out from underneath. I really doubt people wait for trucks to simply park (while they're still running), and then run to seek shelter underneath... it seems they're seeking shelter under vehicles that are already parked and look like they'll be there for some time.

(2) I can't help but wonder why all these restrictions. Is there any correlation between efforts to "beautify" Makkah, the increase in number of Muslims wanting to perform their hajj duty, and all these restrictions?

(3) Who put the restrictions in place? What sorts of restrictions were there at the time of Rasulullah (sallallahu alaihi wa sallem)? I ask because I truly do not know and am curious. In my ignorance, it just seems like people are getting in the way of others performing their hajj duty. Seriously, if all of these 'conveniences' were not around, would so many people actually go or go as often as they do? It truly would be a struggle. I can understand the need to keep the area safe in terms of safeguarding the sites but what about all these other efforts? Did scholars determine the need or was it imposed by certain people in power (be it Saudi or Ottoman)? If scholars came to the consensus that such restrictions were necessary, then at what point did they decide so and why?

(4) Why even classify anyone as an illegal hajji? What is the reason for anyone to become an 'illegal hajji' anyway? Were there such illegals at the time of Rasulullah (sallallahu alaihi wa sallem)?

I'm sorry, these are just thoughts and not directed at anyone in particular. Insha'Allah there is some information out there... perhaps it is hidden someplace in the thread already. If anyone has any information, please provide links. JazakAllah khayran.

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#70 [Permalink] Posted on 20th October 2013 23:48
I mean, as an example, I personally can not go to hajj without a mehram to accompany me and that makes perfect sense and is a restriction that is universal and part of our deen so no arguing there.

However, if I chose to go with a mehram and we were not able to afford to go (on halal funds), and we chose to walk to Makkah from Canada... imagine the journey, the difficulty, the sacrifices, the time, etc... who would have the right to deny us entry into the Sacred City? We wouldn't have permits and even if we did, they would have long expired. Can't we imagine that others undertake such journey on foot or otherwise? I recall reading about one person making the journey from Europe but I can't recall if it was for Hajj or Umrah, and can't recall if he was walking or biking. Okay, perhaps it is a bit of a stretch to imagine the journey from Canada (I'd be willing to try though), but I'm sure there are others out there who feel the same way and who want to make the journey as pure (within their means) as possible.
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#71 [Permalink] Posted on 20th October 2013 23:59
Sorry for the rant but all of that brought to mind the condition that we need to be 'able' to make the journey. But that is so relative... how do we measure ability?

Physical ability? Well, have any of you heard of the Venezuelan man with MD who ran the Chicago marathon recently and it wasn't his first either.

Geographic ability? Well, there are many who traversed mountains, poles, deserts... and made it out. I used to dream of doing a long through-hike of the PCT (still would but would rather hike to Makkah despite the creeping age but not without a mehram) and I've read of children, elderly, people with barely anything with them doing the entire PCT hike (this takes a few months) and many others... anything is possible!

Financial ability? There are many people around the world who live and travel with little to no money and I am only talking about those who make the choice to do so, not the huge communities who live in dire circumstances, chained to the conditions of their lives - either having to stay to look after elderly or ill relatives, having to work under insane conditions to pay off criminals, or just purely so hungry that they are starving. May Allah Ta'aala deliver our ummah from such hardships, grant us strength, and forgive us our sins. Ameen.

What about being financially very able to do so but only because the wealth was obtained in ways that aren't halal? Going for Hajj on wealth amassed at the expense of and on the backs of others - that to me is an illegal Hajji. If we truly look at what we use to go on Hajj, how many would really be able to go? I don't think anyone can ever answer that question.
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#72 [Permalink] Posted on 21st October 2013 00:16
1) & 2)
Many trucks are there for transporting all sorts of things like food, supplies even hujjaj. It's not just a matter of people sleeping under them, people sleep around them, on top of them and cover the road. I've seen it with my own eyes, the road looks like a cemetery, a mass of bodies on the road. Not a good site at all.

Mina is big, but it can only handle a certain number people. If people comply by the rules, then everyone will have sufficient shelter in air conditioned tents. When they break the rules, they are left out like squatters.

3) The rules in my opinion is very much needed. They were set about by the government and it doesn't matter which government.

There were no restrictions in the prophets time as there weren't that many people. Can you imagine if there were no rules today? 2 billion people wouldn't be able to perform hajj. Without rules only the rich would be going. Thanks to such rules, many are not allowed to go every year giving precedence to those who have never been.

4) Illegal hajji. Sounds weird, but to be honest it's true. To keep the crowd under control (3 million people) is not easy. It takes a lot of effort and planning. A lot of people smuggle themselves in and have no food, no place to stay and they beg in the streets. Many are locals who do it professionally and many come from other places. Call them gate crashers if you like. If a place has a limit, then without these restrictions the limit will exceed by far.

They may not of had illegal hajjis in the prophets time, but if there were any hypocrites among them, can you imagine what trouble they could cause and how they would be able to infiltrate the rest of them.
I'm sure also that not everyone went for hajj in the prophets time or even during the khilafa, because some Muslims had to stay behind and protect the Muslim lands, the Muslim women etc etc. So I guess, rules have been around from before.

If a stadium has a capacity of 25000 people and all the tickets were sold out, but a further 15000 fake forged tickets were sold on eBay and everyone turned up, what would be the situation? How can a stadium of 25000 contain 40000? Easy, they would fill the field! No game would be played in the stadium and the whole point of going to the stadium would be pointless.

I hope I've made a bit of sense.

جزاك الله خيرا
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#73 [Permalink] Posted on 21st October 2013 00:35
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May Allah accept your intentions and make it easy for you and possible for you to perform hajj and Umrah.

The man you mentioned did Alhumdulillah do his hajj, he entered the Saudi where they asked him for his visa, he explained his situation and then asked them for Daleel for asking for visa, awesome.

That story is actually on this thread too.
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#74 [Permalink] Posted on 21st October 2013 00:40
Is there an official radius around the Kaaba? I mean, if so many people came, wouldn't that radius just keep expanding such that it wouldn't matter if there were 3 or 3 thousand or 3 million or 3 billion... or the entire population of the world. You'd get as close as you could, expanding outward from the centre (the Kaaba). Are the walls around the kaaba meant to limit the area of tawaaf?

If there is no physical barrier, then there is no 'stadium' Insha'Allah. The point is to perform the pilgrimage and Insha'Allah people can be courteous to one another and allow each other to move in and out without selfishly clinging to prime space... be it during tawaaf or while seeking shelter.

I say all this but of course I'm not a city planner or a planner of anything beyond the needs of my family and a few other small projects so it really is not fair for me to say much but I do feel the situation has become more complicated than it need be and I'm not convinced that it has created ease equally, for everyone.
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#75 [Permalink] Posted on 21st October 2013 01:49
There is a radius for the actual Haram that was divinely told to prophet Ibrahim (as). Great story behind that too.

But the actual radius for performing Tawaf, then I guess there isn't.

The point is the capacity of Mina, Muzdalifa, Arafat etc. It's not physically possible unless they built skyscrapers there too. Even then there's health and safety issues.
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