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#1 [Permalink] Posted on 24th October 2014 10:00
These events are dramatized and fictionalize in order to answer questions and give Dawah.
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#2 [Permalink] Posted on 24th October 2014 10:09

Part 1 (Can Allah be Proven?):

Oliver & Sophie,

I welcome you to our Mosque and I hope that you enjoyed the tea and biscuits. I am not a Scholar or anyone special by any stretch of imagination but just someone who is interested in dialogue and discussion.

I have been asked by our Imam to speak with you; an Imam in Islam is someone who leads our 5 times daily prayers (here) in the Mosque.

So what’s on your mind?

Oliver: Can you prove that Allah exists?

I am so glad that you have asked that question, a fascinating conundrum indeed. Before answering, I would like to say that our mind has been conditioned to accept things by touching it and by presenting hard-core (irrefutable) scientific evidence, would you agree with that? How do I prove to both of you that this carpet which we are sitting on, exists?

Sohphie: The carpet exists because we can see it and touch it and we can prove it.

Can you then prove it to me that your great-great-great- great-great-great-great-great-great Grandfather existed Sophie? Did he exist?

Oliver: She existed because Sophie exists today!

Prove that he existed!

Sophie: He existed because I am here today

So you can't give me a touchy, feely, scientific proof but I must believe that he existed because your existence is a proof that he must have existed; is that the summary of your response.

Oliver: Yes

So the existence of Sophie’s great-great-great- great-great-great-great-great-great Grandfather can be proven without physical evidence using cause and effect relationship. This means that because Sophie (is the effect) the cause (i.e. Sophie’s great-great-great- great-great-great-great-great-great Grandfather) must have existed. We will never believe that something just comes out of nowhere i.e. if Sophie just popped in front of you (with nothing before it) we wouldn’t believe her existence. Whatever comes to a beginning has to have a CAUSE we DO NOT know anything which can exist without a cause.

From Sophie, let’s move on to universe we 100% know that the universe had a beginning. This means that there must have been a CAUSE which created the universe. That CAUSE must have been independent of the universe because if it was part of the universe then that means that universe existed (before existing) i.e. it will make no sense. Sophie couldn’t have been born before her great-great-great- great-great-great-great-great-great Grandfather or without him (ever existing).

We need a final point how can we keep going back and back and back? There has to be someone who is the ultimate creator!

Sophie: I get your point that a Creator must exist (ultimately) but how do you prove the existence of God?

If you mean that a God which you can see, feel and touch then it won’t be God; would it? But as far as the reason for and existence of God I have proved it. There has to be ONE POWERFUL CREATOR for the chain to begin for things to get to us, we and the Earth and the sky and the universe is the proof of Creator just like you are the proof of the existence of great-great-great- great-great-great-great-great-great Grandfather. This is exactly what the Qur'aan says about God right here:

 

[112:1] Say, The truth is that Allah is One.
[112:2] Allah is Besought of all, needing none.
[112:3] He neither begot anyone, nor was he begotten.
[112:4] And equal to Him has never been any one.

This Creator has to have cretain attributes:

  1. He has to be ALL POWERFUL (the Ultimate); otherwise we would be going round and round and round and won't get to the ultimate cause!
  2. He has to be ONE because if there are multiple (equally powerful) beings then they would argue and fight and nothing would ever get done!
  3. He CAN'T be like you & me otherwise he can't be God he would be like any other creation (you, me, chair, carpet, cat, whatever)!
  4. He HAS TO PRESENT otherwise how can things just run by themselves?
  5. Finally, You & I are the proof of his existence.

Acknowledgement: Adapted from various debates of Hamza Tzortzis

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#3 [Permalink] Posted on 24th October 2014 10:37

Part 2 (Can we prove everything from Science?):

Oliver: But shouldn’t we be like looking at scientific proofs for everything?

If I was to ask you two how far is London from ___________? What would you say? How would you answer?

Sohphie: How far from what?

Exactly, we must have a reference point. So if I asked you how far is London from Birmingham you would be able to answer me straightaway. Is science the ultimate reference point? 2 days ago we landed on the Comet and for the first time in our lives we are getting live data from the Comet. Did we knew about the structure and composition of a Comet (exactly and precisely) 3 days ago? No! We had a general idea and we had done a lot of thinking and experimentation but we had no idea what a Comet is (actually) composed of and we still don’t. We are getting the data, we will analyse it and then we will get to know. Science is evolving we are continuously learning so how can you use science to prove God? Is science the ultimate truth?

Oliver: Somethings are true!

Absolutely, there are some scientific facts which cannot be denied and we know them to be absolute truths. Gravity for example we know something prevents us from flying away into the space; there is absolutely NO ESTABLISHED SCIENTIFIC FACT which denies the existence of God. People use “theories” and present them as “facts” to try to deny God, for example the “theory of evolution” but it isn’t a fact it is an evolving theory. If you know of any FACTS which deny the existence of God I would be more than glad to discuss them. We (Muslims) believe that established scientific FACTS point to a Creator (not deny it), happy to hear from you on the issue.

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#4 [Permalink] Posted on 24th October 2014 11:01

Part 3 (Who is Muhammad?):

Oliver: Who was Muhammad and why did God sent him?

A little while ago we established that there has to be a GOD who is ALL POWERFUL and different to us (humans). But ultimately he has to communicate to us (humans), what is the most effective way of doing that? If I ask you Sophie to bench press the same weight that I do, what will you say?

Sohphie: I am a skinny girl I can't lift that much!

So you will say that me giving an example that I can lift this much weight is not good because I am a guy and I am bigger then you, is that right?

Sohphie: That's right

So if the example has to be similar how could God would have sent anybody but a human as a Messenger to deliver his message. We (humans) could have easily said well you are an Angel or a Book how can we relate to you? We are humans!

Oliver: What about other Prophets like Adam or Moses?

Excellent question! If you believe in a Creator then the logical conclusion would be that he neither lies nor flip-flops i.e. doesn’t send one message one day and another message the second day that be inconsistence and very unlike a Creator. So we (Muslims) believe in all of the Prophets from Adam (Peace be upon him) to Abraham (Peace be upon him), Jesus (Peace be upon him), Moses (Peace be upon him) and also believe that fundamentally their message was the same. There were specific commands to the people (depending on the time and circumstances) e.g. years ago we had iPhone 3 and now we have iPhone 6 because technology has changed so due to evolving times some commandments were changed but ultimately all Prophets (Peace be upon him) said to worship one God and we believe in all of them.

We believe in this world to be a finite lifespan and you know that the world isn’t going to last forever so the final message was given to Muhammad (Peace be upon him) pertinent and relevant to the times until this world ends. If the world was to last forever then the Messengers would have kept coming and coming but you know that the Earth isn’t going to last forever; whatever (or however long) that is we just don’t know.

Sohphie: Why didn't Muhammad live forever?

He wouldn’t be human (and mortal) like us then would he? If he would have asked us to do something we would have said, “Its ok for you; you are going to live forever!”; back to the bench press example. The Messenger of God has to have attributes of humans so we can relate to him.

 

Oliver: If Muhammad was a Prophet why did he marry a child?

Another superb question! He married a 9 year old 1400 years ago so you have to look at the situation in the context. Do you know how old were Romeo & Juliet?

Oliver: Don't know. 

Around 13/14! So 500 years ago even in this country it was acceptable for 13/14 years old to think about marriage do 13 year olds get married now? What will happen if a 13 year old tells her parents that she wants to get married? The age of 18 isn’t neither a scientific nor a cast-iron standard fact; it depends on culture to culture so at that time in Arabia 9 year old girls were physically mentally mature enough to be married.

The age of consent is still not 18 (and 14) in some countries (Google it).

You know how else I can prove that this wasn’t an issue?

Sohphie: How?

Because when Muhammad (Peace be upon him) declared to be a Prophet those around him disagreed with him and tried their absolute best to prove him wrong. They mocked him, they labelled him, they declared him to be insane, magician, they hit him, they boycotted him, they exiled him but not one objection of his marriage to a 9 year old was an issue. Doesn’t it make sense for them to have made this point to absolutely and categorically destroy his reputation? But we know that this point was never raised because this wasn’t an issue in the culture, context and circumstances of that time.

There is no Islamic age related guidance for marriage rather it states that people should marry when they are mature and of course that differs.

 

 

 

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#5 [Permalink] Posted on 24th October 2014 11:09

Part 4 (Why religion? Why Allah? Why Islam?):

Oliver: Why do we need to worry about all this and why do we need to worry about Allah and religion? Can't we just live our lives?

Imagine that you went to sleep one day and woke up in the most luxurious room. You get up and look outside the window and there is the most beautiful beach with crystal water and gold like sand. You can walk on the beach and you look at the most beautiful castle which you just walked out from. There is an army of servants to look after you and fulfil every command. What would go through your mind?

Oliver: Laughs...I have died and gone to Heaven!

Your reaction and words tell me 3 things:

  1. That the concept of Heaven is internal to your thinking, no matter how much we detach ourselves from religion but it is part of our fabric. 
  2. You know that this life (of this world) is not always happy, joyous, fulfilling and leaves you a feeling of something missing (something absent). You can't always be happy and your heart and sould longs for eternal happiness.
  3. Thirdly, which are not saying now but you will eventually wonder, "How did I get here?"

 

Sophie: Laughing...Actually after a while I will be freaking out as to how I woke up here!

So then tell me how did you end up in this world? What purpose, what reason, what logic has placed you on this Earth. Just like you won’t be happy until you figure out your reasons for being on the paradise island; you won’t ever be happy without finding why you ended up on Earth and this is the purpose of religion to give you (spiritual) answers.

Islam gives you these answers. Speak to thousands who convert to Islam and the most common response is that have come to peace because they have found their reason (for existence) in life.

How can we (simply) live and not know our Creator? What happens to those who don't know who there parents are, are they at peace?

Sophie: So do you preach Islam?

We are not missionaries in the sense you think of but it is our duty to deliver the message of God and he ultimately guides whom He wishes. By the way I am using the pronoun “He” but Allah is nothing like a human so gender etc. doesn’t apply.

If I get a great bargain on ebay my instinct would be to tell my friends and share the joy. Their purchase won’t diminish anything for me but will only enhance my joy. We confidently assert ,state and feel that Islam is the right religion with the answers for humankind so we share the goodness. We are here to answer your questions and request you to study the Qur’aan; other than that in the Qur’aan it is clearly stated that:

لَآ إِكۡرَاهَ فِى ٱلدِّينِ‌Û–

[2:256] There is no compulsion in religion...

God gives guidance, we are here to answer your questions.
 


 

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#6 [Permalink] Posted on 24th October 2014 12:14

Part 5 (Why does Islam treat women so badly?):

Sophie: Why does Islam treat women so badly and discriminates against them?

Does it? That’s news to me! Let’s analyse the treatment of women in Islam at the beginning and then we will try to place it into today’s context. Prior to Islam female infants were buried alive, Islam put a stop to it and a dedicated verse of the Qur’aan specifically address the matter that on the day of judgement this brutal, barbaric practise of female infanticide be questioned, I mean what fault is it of a little baby to be killed?

 

[81:8] and when the girl-child that was buried alive will be asked, [81:9] for what sin she was killed,

When the people of Makkah persecuted the early converts to Islam they migrated to Abyssinia (Ethiopia) to escape the persecution. The chiefs of Makkah decided to send a delegation to the King of Abyssinia to bring them back; when the King asked the escapees to explain their actions the (Muslim) spokesman  Jafar ibn Abi Talib (RA) specifically mentioned something about women, he said:

...He (Prophet Muhammad [peace be upon him] forbade us to speak evil of women..

During the time of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) a young pretty slave girl was set free and she decided to leave her (not so good looking husband) who was madly in love with her. He begged her to stay with him even had the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) intercede on his behalf but she rejected! Does this sound like discrimination, lack of free choice to you?


Bareerah was a female slave and A'isha was interested in buying her. She was married to Mugheer, and Ai'sha freed her (they were married in slavery); a free woman cannot marry a slave man, so after she became free, she had the choice to keep this marriage or to ask for the dissolvent of the marriage. She said, "Alhamdulillah, I'm tired of this marriage, I'm going to get out." Mugheer loved her so much, sincerely and honestly. After she left him, he couldn't take it, so he went in public weeping, chasing her, asking her "Ya Bareera just look at me or talk to me." He went to sahaba and said, "Please talk to her for me (to Abu Bakr and Umar and at the end, even to the Prophet (salAllahu alayhi wassalam) to ask him to intercede. So Prophet (peace be upon him) (as the mercy for mankind) felt sorry for him, and he said he'd do it. When he went to Bareerah, she asked, "Are you commanding me or are you just interceding?" The Prophet said, "I'm interceding." She replied, "If this is the case, then I don't want him", and since all else failed, he spent his life chasing after her and crying for her.

There are many other examples like these, does this sound like discrimination or liberation to you?

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#7 [Permalink] Posted on 24th October 2014 12:30
Will have to read all this carefully inshaAllah before I comment
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#8 [Permalink] Posted on 24th October 2014 12:55

ummi taalib wrote:
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Khala,

1st point:

The trick in Dawah is not to behave like you are on a forum and speaking to Hazr.... :P

In Dawah, you want to make sure that you appear balanced, non-confrontational, and you want the one whom you are given Dawah to (to take credit for emerging thoughts) you even want to let them win and mostly you want to agree. This is the technique in the Qur’aan where you want to arrive at common terms of discourse. Hidayah is in the Hands of Allah (SWT) but basically you want to dispel myths (which the Media spreads with their disinformation).

Unlike forums where you want to rip into people shred them to bits and basically act like a pit-bull on steroids; give no quarter and take no quarter. You can’t give Dawah like this in real life to Muslims or Non-Muslims. When speaking to Salafees, Barelwees, Qadiyanees etc in real life again you want to appear genuinely non-hostile, mellow, agreeable, amenable and want to get to a point (of consensus) and with Non-Muslims the need is even greater.

So (in real life) you dodge issues, you don’t directly answer and you don’t try to win every point (unlike on online forums where you are there to simply smash!) because your intention (in real life) is to win hearts and penetrate the mind.

Please understand that the basic difference in (real) Dawah vs forums is the methodology and not the information. In Dawah you want the person to let out steam, get their emotions out of the way and then you want to get to grips with the issue (at heart).

Reading Dawah on the Internet doesn’t work right because you are removed from the social situation and context so what should be learned is the methodology and not the information because most people know the information. In my Youth I watched a lot from people like Colonel Ameerud-Deen (RA) and elders of Nizamuddin Markaz and how they spoke and made their points and I observed how they speak and what they say. And it isn't what they say BUT how they say it. I have watched countless interactions of elders with women (in America) and from street women to professionals to prostitues and basically you DO NOT want to be confrontational.

In my (limited) view this is the single most important point!

2nd point:

As a Tableeghi (at heart) you want to personally interact and give Dawah as per the Sunnah of Ambiya and specially Nabi (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam). Mass-media, Internet sites, youtubes may work but ultimately people take Shahadah based on personal interactions.

In sales Jargon learn to "Play the MAN!"

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#9 [Permalink] Posted on 24th October 2014 14:59

Being updated....
 

 

Part 5:

Sophie,

Men and women are legally and juristically the same in Islam i.e. a man and a woman have the same legal rights in Islam; no difference.

When appearing in court Islam sees no difference between a man and woman.

Spiritually, there is no difference between a man and a woman i.e. the reward that a woman gets for praying is the same as a man; same for fasting etc.

Tactically, there are differences due to the nature of women (discussed before) women have certain discounts which men don’t enjoy! For example, for morning prayers men are encouraged to get out of the bed and travel to the Mosque while women can pray at home and are not required or instructed to travel to the Mosque. For Friday prayers (which is our special days) men are required to travel to the Mosque while women don’t have to. During periods when it (may be painful and uncomfortable) women are not legislated to pray or fast at all i.e. they can relax and get through that time period and their reward (from Allah) is in letting go while men have to labour on in all conditions and all circumstances.

Next time on Friday around midday when its bad weather, blistery winds and pouring down remember that (I as a) man is required to make it to the Mosque otherwise my prayer isn’t valid.

Does this sound like Islam treats women as second-class citizens?

Historically, the first convert to Islam was a woman, the first martyr in Islam was a woman and the person who narrated the most traditions of Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) was a woman. Therefore there is no evidence to suggest that the participation and contribution of women in Islam is inferior to men.

Their participation and contribution is (however) in context of their role and assignment as a homemaker and that is what Islam dictates.

Their testimony in courts etc. is discouraged and again this matter must be viewed in context of her (role) i.e. men are breadwinners, have social, financial and transactional interactions (with the outside world). Would you like to be dragged to court and testify when you have a fairly cushy life with your needs taken care of? If you are protected (and your needs taken care of) and yet able to participate and contribute positively to the society intellectually etc then why would you want to be dragged to a court to testify?

The whole ethos of Islam is to separate the woman from the daily grind of life in the rat race, that is not her place. Every injunction is geared up for that purpose and once you understand that then the issue of testimony (not equal to men) makes sense.
 

Part 6:

Sophie,

Islam treats people as adults who are intelligent and mature enough to make their own choices. For men marrying upto four wives is an act which is permitted but neither obligatory nor has any extra virtue.

Islam isn’t a nanny state to dictate to people or to micromanage their lives. With the presence of loads of extra women who are available and need partners. Islam tells a woman that if she is willing to accept a man (knowing fully well that he is married) and willing to be his partner accepting all the details (and his commitments) then Islam gives the woman the freedom to make her choice. The man is accepting full responsibility to provide for her (and her children if she has any) and is required to disclose his current commitments.

Britain, on the other hand takes the choice away from the woman and dictates that she can’t take this man (knowing fully well his circumstances) as a spouse! But the British society permits her to be a mistress where she gets exploited without getting the support (from the man) in return.

Majority of Muslim men have only one wife and remain faithful to them throughout. Marriage failures, affairs and promiscuous lifestyle is more common to Non-Muslims then Muslims and that is a FACT. How many girls do you know who are pregnant (or young mothers) who are simply abandoned by boys (or men) after they have had their satisfaction? Islam prohibits exploitation of this nature and legislates a system where a woman has her rights and puts the woman in the driving seat (i.e. it’s her decision) if she wants to be a second wife or not!

Which system do you honestly think is fairer? A system (Islam) where a woman is treated as a mature adult and she makes a choice or a system (British) where she gets exploited without any benefits or (acceptance) i.e. she is a dirty secret with no identification and a stigma attached to her?

  1. As far as women marrying multiple men then if you look at it practically how will this work? The social structure of the world as we know it for thousands of years will need to be turned upside down!

  2. How will you determine the father? DNA tests all the time?

There are more women in the world then men so what happens when she has multiple partners? Doesn’t it exacerbate the situation instead of solving it?

It’s nice to discuss theories but honestly how do you propose a system of women with multiple men to work? I know that there are certain tribes and subcultures where this does happen but honestly on a global scale this is what you youngsters call an epic fail!

Islam is a global religion for global (practical) problems for practical people and has no interest in theories and ideas which may sound nice but actually don't work in practise.

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#10 [Permalink] Posted on 24th October 2014 16:02
Points 1 & 2 ....This is why I make investigations to be sure, then use it as and how it feels right. Alhamdulillah! its worked many times. This is my research which inshaAllah will be typed up as notes to use as and when i need them. These subjects are not for being part of the syllabus. Discussions occur when they have certain questions and many times its dealt with unless i need to be sure or am not familiar with the subject.

Also can you please slow down as i already have a lot of reading...i haven't really read any of these and wont be able to today...Jazakallaah for all the effort

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#11 [Permalink] Posted on 24th October 2014 17:31
Actually it would be good for me to edit this and put it on the website so please go through with it with a very critical mind...It won't be original then but we will plan it...
Posted via the Muftisays Android App
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#12 [Permalink] Posted on 25th October 2014 08:31
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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Part1
Alhamdulillah! Exactly what Mawlana Yasin and Brother Arsala are saying. I need to drill this in and make their "zahan" first.

It used to be my way to say "because Allah says so" and "Not everything can be understood as many things will be beyond our limited comprehension" however I stopped after that reply due to my fear of their words maybe being akin to kufr.

I'll click on "like" the ones i've read and understood. If questions, i'll ask
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#13 [Permalink] Posted on 25th October 2014 09:13
Part 2: some of it discussed on various occasions - need to extract main points (found a few places where a re-write is needed, will mention later ia)

Part 3: Girls themselves agreed during short discussion on feminism that gender equality does not exist in reality

So far:
1. "because Allah says so" needs to be drilled in by discussing His qualities

Before specifics can be discussed, establish following facts:
2. men and women are different - physical capabilities, emotional buildup - scientific facts back up
3. therefore their roles/assignments will be different
4. state of women's role in the West opposed to women's role in Islam defined - by Allah ta'ala Who created them both

read up to part 4

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#14 [Permalink] Posted on 25th October 2014 14:57

ummi taalib wrote:
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I can modify the posts to address your concerns but then it will be fiction and not the correct re-telling of events so let me do that...

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#15 [Permalink] Posted on 25th October 2014 16:09
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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Truer version's are always better than fiction, one can always say that it is all based on a true story.

Fictional versions will always be looked at as naseehah and a lot of people don't like it when they are told naseehas because they end up thinking that they are being lectured.
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