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ok.
In that case please go through the entire thread where the issue of women attending Masjid was discussed and inform us of the reasons for the stream of abuse which came everybody's way on the forum. Precisely which rule of Shariah and which injunction was violated so emphatically which resulted in that barrage of abuse?
If Hazrat A. S. Desai (HA) has the right as an Alim to abuse people based on incorrect, twisted information by taking a unilateral course of action then what crime has Maulana Yasin (HA) committed by taking a decision (based on Shura)?
If your assertion is not to have disagreement with Ulama aired in public then what crime have Shaykh (Maulana) Tariq Jameel (HA) and Shaykh (Maulana) Ebraheem Bham (HA), Shaykh (Mufti) Taha Karan (HA) committed to be publicly put to the sword? Some of them on a daily/weekly basis and consistently, deliberately and in the most vile manner?
Please point out the actions, words and speeches of any of our Akabir who followed a similar path regarding other Deobandi Ulama? Who did this?
Forget Ulama what has Hashim Amla done? Does he have no respect in Shariah because he is not an Alim?
Khala,
It’s your opinion that disagreement with Ulama shouldn’t be public as not to create confusion in the minds of people; fair enough let’s accept that premise.
What is your opinion on clear blatant and unambiguous disrespect and abuse of Ulama?
In my limited understanding all Muslims deserve respect with regards to their honour and dignity; but (fair enough) lets consign this to Ulama (alone) so I am asking what is the inunction of disrespect and abuse thrown at Ulama when you regard disagreement to be a matter which shouldn’t be public? Surely disrespect and abuse is rather more serious than mere disagreement?
Don’t you think?
Agree that Ulama criticising Ulama is a different matter but in your heart of hearts do you think he is “disagreeing” with Shaykh (Maulana) Tariq Jameel Saheb (HA) and others?
Is continuously and habitually addressing Maulana Ebraheem Bham as Reverend Abraham a “disagreement” in your heart and mind?
Maulana spelling his own name:
Ebrahim Bham
Majlis spelling his name:
REVEREND ABRAHAM BHAM
Is this a disagreement in your eyes???
Wa-Salam Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh,
Jazakallahu Khayran
P.S: Khala Ummi Talib! I beg, beseech, implore, adjure, entreat you to ignore this discussion and continue on what you are discussing.
You as a laymen:
All understandable and fair enough.
Maulana Yasin (is an Alim):
Why can't you understand and accept that?
Khala,
First and foremost Jazakallahu Khayran for giving us a chance to discuss matters amicably.
Nobody considers you dumb or old or stupid however I do believe that you are not aware of the full facts about this issue on the ground in South Africa and neither are most of the posters who back Majlis.
Their support (and yours) for the most part is based on due deference and reverence towards a Senior Alim (and rightly so) although most people are unable to pick apart the Fatwa (Academically) and genuinely delve into the issues at hand.
I was involved with Hazrat (HA) long before most of the abusers got on the gravy train and also offered to assist him with the old site (which is incorrectly listed on your forum) and the new site and also digitising some of the Bayans and also listened to him in the 1990’s long before anyone had heard of him. Over the years I have had numerous conversations with Hazrat (HA) both public and private.
His Taqwa, Seniority, Service, compassion and passion for serving the Deen of Allah (SWT) has NEVER been in question! In fact, he puts most Ulama to shame when it comes to Service to the Deen of Allah (SWT) and providing Service to it.
Issue 1:
The issue here is abuse towards (everyone including Ulama) this isn’t harshness its pure unaltered, untampered abuse! Our Akabir dealt directly with Shaykh (Maulana) Raza Khan Barlewee (RA) and DID NOT label him as a Reverend, Pundit, or whatever but refuted him strongly and adequately every step of the way.
Shaykh (Maulana) Ebrahim Bham (HA) is not a teenager, not a new 21 year old new Darul-uloom graduate but someone Senior, well known and a person of authority within South Africa and a 110% bonafide Deobandi, he visits UK on (almost) a yearly basis; he DOES NOT deserve this abuse!
Shaykh (Mufti) Taha Karaan (HA) is not a teenager, not a new 21 year old new Darul-uloom graduate but the most Senior Shaf’ae Mufti in South Africa and well known internationally, him (and womenfolk of his family) don’t deserve abuse!
Shaykh (Maulana) Yunus Patel (RA) was the Khaleefa of Hakeem Akhtar Saheb (RA) and didn’t deserve to be plotted against and overthrown as the head of Ulamas in South Africa. Shaykh (Mufti) Zubair Bayat (HA) is not a teenager, not a new 21 year old new Darul-uloom graduate but someone Senior, well known and a person of authority within South Africa he didn’t have to go off a tangent and start a new organisation at the behest of Shaykh (Maulana) Yunus Patel (RA)!
I keep asking you to give me examples of where Deobandi Ulama have treated other Deobandi Ulama (whom they disagree) with in such a manner? Give me examples from our Akabir.
We absolutely respect Hazrat A. S. Desai (HA) but we will NOT standby when other Akabir are being abused in such manner.
I don’t know why you can’t see that calling a Senior Alim a “Reverend” and deliberately changing his name from “Ebrahim” to “Abraham” is not a matter of disagreement between Ulama at all; it is downright ABUSE!
Starting up an entire FAKE ORGANISATION called UUCSA to deliberately mislead Muslims of South Africa who trust the union of various Ulama bodies (real UUCSA) is NOT an Ulama disagreement!
Issue 2:
Then we discuss the Fatwaas themselves. The Fatwaas on Qiblah, vaccination, Blood transfusion, Pepsi, Alcohol are based on “conspiracy theories” and Daily Mirror sensationalism (science) and to declare things Haram based on hocus-pocus (science) IS NOT a matter of Fiqh it is a matter of not having the prerequisite scientific knowledge and background.
MJC is the representative organisation of most South African Shaf’aes and to then issue statements about Shaf’ae Madhab based on 2 lines when there is an entire discussion by Shaf’ae Ulama (in both Arabic and English) explaining and outlining the issue is just confusing the masses. Which Deobandi (Hanafi) Ulama do you know you issue Fatwaas on Shaf’ae Madhab in direct contradiction to the Shaf’ae Ulama and Muftees of the land? Name me EXAMPLES and references, please!
Come clean?
It’s time for you and all defenders to come clean and say “Yes we do not know the science of the Fiqh behind these Fatwaas (and neither do we have the capability to investigate and understand) but out of respect and trust of Hazrat (HA) we trust and propagate them”
You admitted that you don’t believe laymen can’t disagree with Ulama (Alhumdolillah) but 99.9% of those who are disagreeing simply disagree on the premise that he is a Senior Alim of Taqwa (who are you?).
Nothing solid, nothing substantial pure rhetoric.
Why discuss this?
If this was a purely South African issue then we would consign it to the South African Ulama but this is beginning to affect Pakistanees (already stated by a Brother from Karachi about SANHA). SANHA has an alliance with Darul-uloom Binori Town (Karachi) and other Ulama, the most Senior and reputable Ulama in Pakistan back SANHA and here is a teenager from Karachi saying I don’t trust it because Shaykh (Mufti) A. S. Desai (HA) has talks against it.
The question he hasn’t answered are:
WHAT DOES a teenager from Karachi know which Ulama of Darul-uloom Binori Town (Karachi) don’t know?
Sister Maria is another flipper-flopper she sends questions then gets a response and then gets confused, based on what?
Deobandi History?
You have your views and nobody is asking you to change or agree with what is being said but you are being asked to at least consider maybe Shaykh (Maulana) Yasin (HA) is looking at something which you are unable to grasp (not out of stupidity but out of not having the full picture).
The most stringent and heated disagreement in the history of Deobandees was between Shaykh (Maulana) Ashraf Ali Thanwi (RA) and Shaykhul-Isam (Maulana) Hussain Ahmed Madani (RA) how did they address each other?
I mean who out of these Ulama are Kuffar, Fussaq, Fujjar who need to be abused and plotted against?
These Ulama are NOT Shias, they are NOT Barelwee, they are NOT Qadiyanees they are Deobandees.
Polite Request:
You have your views and nobody is asking you to change or agree with what is being said but you are being asked to at least consider maybe Shaykh (Maulana) Yasin (HA) is looking at something which you are unable to grasp (not out of stupidity but out of not having the full picture).
I fully take your view on board that you are unable to dissect a Fatwa and break it down into its constitutes and analyse it (thoroughly) but surely you CANNOT in your heart of heart agree with the abuse of Ulama right before your eyes!
Women attending Mosque issue:
Offtopic:
Lastest Fatwa on askimam
Last line declares it Makrooh and uses the following as source:
( ويكره Øضورهن الجماعة ) ولو لجمعة وعيد ووعظ ( مطلقا ) ولو عجوزا ليلا ( على المذهب ) المÙتى به Ù„Ùساد الزمان
You are requested to go to any Alim of your choice and have the commentary translated (which has been ommited from the answer). Some of the South African Ulama were recently challenged on the issue by other Ulama and I do happen to have the discussion (which is not for public consumpton); suffice to say that I feel confident enough for you to take the issue to Ulama and starting from Nabi (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) to the Sahabiyaat (RA) and genuinly research the issue.
If you don't want to do that here is Shaykh (Mufti) Taqi Usmani (HA) on the issue (in Urdu):
I guess that you DO NOT consider this to be Haram or Makrooh-Tahreemi anyways
Disclaimer:
Nowhere in the post above is Hazrat A. S. Desai (HA) abused, disrespected or reviled but I have stated facts (as humanly and objectively) as possible and willing to retract, apologise, seek forgiveness for whatever turns out to be (human) error, misleading or misinterpretation.
As Allah (SWT) is my witness I have not set out to mislead or misinterpret anything.
Putting Ulama aside, Hashim Amla is one of the nicest people you will ever meet, he acted in conjunction and Mushwara with his Shaykh (Maulana) Yunus Patel (RA) what on earth has the guy done SO WRONG to deserve downright vile and poisonous abuse?
What is my fault?
I have discussed issues which majority of people feel in the heart but don't talk about it!
Jazakallahu Khayran for providing a refernce, please add it your post. Please ensure that you have correctly understood and translated the text and then remind me in 4-5 days once the discussion with Khala is concluded to address your post because it has errors.
If I reply to it now the discussion between me and Khala will go offtrack.
This cannot be undone and I am sure it will be greatly appreciated.
Please wait...