Forum Menu - Click/Swipe to open
 

THE DECEPTION OF THE MORON ‘MUFTIS’ OF THE MUFTISAYS INTERNET FORUM

You have contributed 0.0% of this topic

Thread Tools
Appreciate
Topic Appreciation
sharjan8643
Rank Image
abu mohammed's avatar
London
26,146
Brother
9,541
abu mohammed's avatar
#46 [Permalink] Posted on 15th September 2014 20:27
Jazakallah Muadh, you posted whilst i was typing.
report post quote code quick quote reply
No post ratings
back to top
Rank Image
ummi taalib's avatar
Unspecified
2,486
Sister
2,902
ummi taalib's avatar
#47 [Permalink] Posted on 15th September 2014 20:40
Brother Muadh, i know for a fact we are allowed to disagree with Ulama. Did not an old lady object to to Hazrat Umar RA and did he not accept what she said? Ok let me explain inshaAllah.

I do not agree with every scholar's stance on everything, this is impossible right? If I disagree or am not comfortable with something I leave it. In fact i tend to consult only a couple of scholars for my deeni needs even though I read and listen to many scholars and believe it or not there have been at least two instances where i voiced a disagreement with a scholar. It was taken with humility, once with an explanation which was satisfactory and once I found that my objection was considered.

So you see I'm not at all saying never object a scholar. I have said this before. The objections I have often stated is HOW it is done and WHERE i.e. on forums where many beginners come searching for information. My reason is twofold for objecting, one because these people are going to be put off our scholars and go elsewhere and second, I cant seem to tolerate harsh words against scholars. Maybe I'm wrong but this is the reason i first started to speak up and got into trouble with you young brothers ) :

Perhaps you understand inshaAllah? Perhaps others understand what I'm saying?...or I'm way off track
report post quote code quick quote reply
+2 -0Like x 2
back to top
Rank Image
Muadh_Khan's avatar
Offline
UK
11,537
Brother
112
Muadh_Khan's avatar
#48 [Permalink] Posted on 15th September 2014 20:54

ummi taalib wrote:
View original post

ok.

In that case please go through the entire thread where the issue of women attending Masjid was discussed and inform us of the reasons for  the stream of abuse which came everybody's way on the forum. Precisely which rule of Shariah and which injunction was violated so emphatically which resulted in that barrage of abuse?

If Hazrat A. S. Desai (HA) has the right as an Alim to abuse people based on incorrect, twisted information by taking a unilateral course of action then what crime has Maulana Yasin (HA) committed by taking a decision (based on Shura)?

If your assertion is not to have disagreement with Ulama aired in public then what crime have Shaykh (Maulana) Tariq Jameel (HA) and Shaykh (Maulana) Ebraheem Bham (HA), Shaykh (Mufti) Taha Karan (HA) committed to be publicly put to the sword? Some of them on a daily/weekly basis and consistently, deliberately and in the most vile manner?

Please point out the actions, words and speeches of any of our Akabir who followed a similar path regarding other Deobandi Ulama? Who did this?

Forget Ulama what has Hashim Amla done? Does he have no respect in Shariah because he is not an Alim?

report post quote code quick quote reply
No post ratings
back to top
Rank Image
ummi taalib's avatar
Unspecified
2,486
Sister
2,902
ummi taalib's avatar
#49 [Permalink] Posted on 15th September 2014 20:58
I cant answer for the stream of abuse which came from others and no matter which scholar it is who is criticised so openly, i always get this dislike of it....I've given my explanation to your query brother muadh. If you or anyone else do not agree with my reasoning then we must agree to disagree to avoid being the cause of the thread being wisked away again
report post quote code quick quote reply
+1 -0Like x 1
back to top
Rank Image
ummi taalib's avatar
Unspecified
2,486
Sister
2,902
ummi taalib's avatar
#50 [Permalink] Posted on 15th September 2014 21:05
Oh yes and scholars criticising other scholars is a very different matter to us laypersons criticising scholars on a public forum....and thats not to say I agree with ever criticism of Shaykh Mufti Desai.
report post quote code quick quote reply
+1 -0Like x 1
back to top
Rank Image
Muadh_Khan's avatar
Offline
UK
11,537
Brother
112
Muadh_Khan's avatar
#51 [Permalink] Posted on 15th September 2014 21:05

ummi taalib wrote:
View original post

Khala,

It’s your opinion that disagreement with Ulama shouldn’t be public as not to create confusion in the minds of people; fair enough let’s accept that premise.

What is your opinion on clear blatant and unambiguous disrespect and abuse of Ulama?

 

In my limited understanding all Muslims deserve respect with regards to their honour and dignity; but (fair enough) lets consign this to Ulama (alone) so I am asking what is the inunction of disrespect and abuse thrown at Ulama when you regard disagreement to be a matter which shouldn’t be public? Surely disrespect and abuse is rather more serious than mere disagreement?

Don’t you think?

ummi taalib wrote:
View original post

Agree that Ulama criticising Ulama is a different matter but in your heart of hearts do you think he is “disagreeing” with Shaykh (Maulana) Tariq Jameel Saheb (HA) and others?

Is continuously and habitually addressing Maulana Ebraheem Bham as Reverend Abraham a “disagreement” in your heart and mind?

Maulana spelling his own name:

Ebrahim Bham

Majlis spelling his name:

REVEREND ABRAHAM BHAM

Is this a disagreement in your eyes???

 

 

report post quote code quick quote reply
+0 -0Old x 1
back to top
Rank Image
Arfatzafar's avatar
Offline
India
1,269
Brother
1,585
Arfatzafar's avatar
#52 [Permalink] Posted on 15th September 2014 21:26
(salaam)
Br Muadh,
I don't intend to debate with you in this issue. I put before you what I've understood so far.

Hazrat Atika bint Zaid rz.a would like to pray the salah in masjid but when she would ask Hazrat Umar رضي الله عنه for permission, he'd keep silent and she would also say that she would go to masjid until he stop her.

Actually, she'd put a condition before Hazrat Umar رضي الله عنه at the time of nikah that he would not stop her from praying in masjid and he agreed.

So here Q is raised why he accepted her condition?

Answer is that at the time of nikah situation wasn't so bad for women but later on when He felt that women shouldn't go to masjid now, then he wanted to see her praying in home only.

He couldn't stop her because he had to keep his word but this is also a fact that he's not happy with her in this matter.

Why RasulAllah (saw) allowed women, certainly there must be a hikmah.
But
Why RasulAllah (saw) stopped women from praying salah in masjid and told them to pray in inner room instead of praying in masjid.
Indeed, there should also be any hikmah.

Why Hazrat Umar رضي الله عنه didn't like the women's praying salah in masjid, there should also be a hikmah.

We can never imagine that RasulAllah (saw) asked the men to let their wives go to masjid and Hazrat Umar رضي الله عنه would go against the ruling of RasulAllah (saw)???

The doors of masjid arent closed for women but it's preferable that they shouldn't be encouraged to pray in masjid.

If only one lady causes fitnah in masjid, howsoever, she prayed separately from men, the ambience of the sacred place will be ruined.
If the same lady causes any fitnah in market or in marriage party, it doesn't harm the image of Islam directly but in the matter of masjid it does.

Allah سبحانه وتعالى knows best.
report post quote code quick quote reply
+3 -0Like x 3
back to top
Rank Image
Muadh_Khan's avatar
Offline
UK
11,537
Brother
112
Muadh_Khan's avatar
#53 [Permalink] Posted on 15th September 2014 21:29

Arfatzafar wrote:
View original post

Wa-Salam Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh,

  1. Please quote the source of your information, you continue to copy/paste text without indicating as to where you get your views from.
  2. Please state that you STAND BY your own post to be correct and accurate and have done the necessary research to assure yourself of its validity and authenticity.

Jazakallahu Khayran

P.S: Khala Ummi Talib! I beg, beseech, implore, adjure, entreat you to ignore this discussion and continue on what you are discussing.

report post quote code quick quote reply
+0 -0Old x 2
back to top
Rank Image
ummi taalib's avatar
Unspecified
2,486
Sister
2,902
ummi taalib's avatar
#54 [Permalink] Posted on 15th September 2014 21:57
Yes definitely all Muslims deserve respect only unfortunately most of us are lacking in showing respect to every Muslim.

"disagreement with Ulama shouldn’t be public as not to create confusion in the minds of people"

I didnt mean confusion. I feel instead of us being a means of connection of people with the Ulama we become a means of distance. If Ulama, mashaikh, madaaris, tabligh, khanqah systems constantly get a bashing then people are bound to be put off and they'll turn away....so whats left for them? Salafism, barelwism and all the other isms out there

As for the disagreement question:
Certainly it is not merely disagreement. I agree, however i absolutely refuse to discuss the methodology adopted by a scholar of his station. This is exactly what i speak out against and here you want me to do the same. Actually i'm grateful for this opportunity. I've tried to say the same thing at other times but it always somehow turned bad. Jazakallah

I think the discussion between you and other brothers can continue brother muadh as i've explained myself as best i could an am hoping it is enough to clear all misunderstandings...
report post quote code quick quote reply
+2 -0Like x 2
back to top
Rank Image
Muadh_Khan's avatar
Offline
UK
11,537
Brother
112
Muadh_Khan's avatar
#55 [Permalink] Posted on 15th September 2014 22:05

ummi taalib wrote:
View original post

You as a laymen:

  1. Dislike disagreement with Ulama (in public)
  2. You dislike to discuss the methodology of a Scholar

All understandable and fair enough.

Maulana Yasin (is an Alim):

  1. He refuses to allow Ulama (and others) to be disrespected, abused and reviled

Why can't you understand and accept that?

 

report post quote code quick quote reply
+0 -1Dislike x 1Agree x 1Old x 2
back to top
Rank Image
ummi taalib's avatar
Unspecified
2,486
Sister
2,902
ummi taalib's avatar
#56 [Permalink] Posted on 16th September 2014 09:17
Assalaamu 'alaykum
Please note the following sequence of posts

the opening post of the other thread reads:
"From the banned website"

and then continues with the question:
"What exactly is an "Internet Mufti"?"

I said:
"majlis website really banned on MS?

If I may I'd like to say something regarding those words. I felt while reading the article that "moron internet muftis" is referring to laypersons like us giving our opinions on shar'ee matters without adequate knowledge and not our respected Mufti Faruq sahib (Hafizahullah) as someone mentioned or other respectable ulama.....and also no matter what the Majlis Ulama are saying we (the laypersons) should not use derogatory terms for them

just my opinion......"


Then after brother abu mohammads post saying it was discussed in the authorizor's section i said,

"If the site has been banned then i would like to say in protest that ok, yes MS has had it bad from the majlis as has other forums but must we overlook all the other good they have done for the haqq to be established? Despite the strong and often harsh method used, we have to admit it is on the haqq.

Again only my opinion but banning is a bit too strong.....and obviously it is the shura of MS who has the final say but as members we too should be able to voice our opinions"


The explanation that only links were banned came AFTER this...

now you say:
"He refuses to allow Ulama (and others) to be disrespected, abused and reviled
Why can't you understand and accept that?"


How can my small protest and stating an opinion with the greatest of respect against SHURA decision signify my not accepting Mawlana Yasin's (muftisays) stance against disrespecting, abusing, reviling Ulama and others? I would not be a contributor (albeit a small contributor at this time) on MS if it was not so and anyway in reality the "disrespecting, abusing, reviling Ulama and others" still goes on to a certain extent, mostly controlled but sometimes not.

I still feel the actual banning (whether its links only or not) of an authentic website dedicated to proclaiming the haqq and where except for a few such articles where a pious, high level and highly respected scholar of deen is criticising other scholars (which is between him and Allah), all the other resources are nothing but an asset for the ummah at this time

So You are wrong brother muadh to persist and make me out to be the villain in all of this....in reality the dumb aunt making statements without any knowledge right? Now I understand where the initial questions were leading. The explanation in post number 37 and your research was very interesting and i would like to read more however I think enough has been covered for us to understand each other's stance.

Just in case another question comes up (as has been the case on more than one occasion) - where am I when you all are answering the insults of the shias and other baatil groups upon our Ulama? - My reply is refuting them is the job of those with knowledge on these groups and anyway one would expect these type of posts from them. What I personally did not expect on forums when i first ventured out online was this constant negative attitude towards our own from our own. Rightly or wrongly, i began speaking up and i have explained my reasoning so if I'm wrong then I ask Allah ta'ala to correct me. Never did I hold a grudge against any of you brothers for whatever was said or think bad of anyone..Alhamdulillah

I hope inshaAllah that this is going to be enough of an explanation and other discussions can carry on.




report post quote code quick quote reply
+2 -0Like x 2Agree x 2
back to top
Rank Image
ummi taalib's avatar
Unspecified
2,486
Sister
2,902
ummi taalib's avatar
#57 [Permalink] Posted on 16th September 2014 09:58
PS
Just wanted to add my third reason for persisting in making my statements (which I have mentioned before at other places)...the fact that the online negativity toward Ulama, mashaykh etc was playing into the hands of the enemy. How they would be gleefully be rubbing their hands at our disputes....

By the way I should have added a smiley at the "villain" bit to take away the sting as there is none intended
report post quote code quick quote reply
No post ratings
back to top
Rank Image
Arfatzafar's avatar
Offline
India
1,269
Brother
1,585
Arfatzafar's avatar
#58 [Permalink] Posted on 16th September 2014 10:28
I read:

''Ghairmuqallidin ke aitrazat haqiqat ke a'ine me'' by Mufti Mohammad Shokat Sana Qasmi HA

''Fatawa Rahimya vol 10'' by Hazrat Molana Sayed Abdur Rahim Lajpuri rh.a
report post quote code quick quote reply
No post ratings
back to top
Rank Image
Muadh_Khan's avatar
Offline
UK
11,537
Brother
112
Muadh_Khan's avatar
#59 [Permalink] Posted on 16th September 2014 12:48

ummi taalib wrote:
View original post

Khala,

First and foremost Jazakallahu Khayran for giving us a chance to discuss matters amicably.

Nobody considers you dumb or old or stupid however I do believe that you are not aware of the full facts about this issue on the ground in South Africa and neither are most of the posters who back Majlis.

Their support (and yours) for the most part is based on due deference and reverence towards a Senior Alim (and rightly so) although most people are unable to pick apart the Fatwa (Academically) and genuinely delve into the issues at hand.

I was involved with Hazrat (HA) long before most of the abusers got on the gravy train and also offered to assist him with the old site (which is incorrectly listed on your forum) and the new site and also digitising some of the Bayans and also listened to him in the 1990’s long before anyone had heard of him. Over the years I have had numerous conversations with Hazrat (HA) both public and private.

His Taqwa, Seniority, Service, compassion and passion for serving the Deen of Allah (SWT) has NEVER been in question! In fact, he puts most Ulama to shame when it comes to Service to the Deen of Allah (SWT) and providing Service to it.

Issue 1:

The issue here is abuse towards (everyone including Ulama) this isn’t harshness its pure unaltered, untampered abuse! Our Akabir dealt directly with Shaykh (Maulana) Raza Khan Barlewee (RA) and DID NOT label him as a Reverend,  Pundit, or whatever but refuted him strongly and adequately every step of the way.

Shaykh (Maulana) Ebrahim Bham (HA) is not a teenager, not a new 21 year old new Darul-uloom graduate but someone Senior, well known and a person of authority within South Africa and a 110% bonafide Deobandi, he visits UK on (almost) a yearly basis; he DOES NOT deserve this abuse!

Shaykh (Mufti) Taha Karaan (HA) is not a teenager, not a new 21 year old new Darul-uloom graduate but the most Senior Shaf’ae Mufti in South Africa and well known internationally, him (and womenfolk of his family) don’t deserve abuse!

Shaykh (Maulana) Yunus Patel (RA) was the Khaleefa of Hakeem Akhtar Saheb (RA) and didn’t deserve to be plotted against and overthrown as the head of Ulamas in South Africa. Shaykh (Mufti) Zubair Bayat (HA) is not a teenager, not a new 21 year old new Darul-uloom graduate but someone Senior, well known and a person of authority within South Africa he didn’t have to go off a tangent and start a new organisation at the behest of Shaykh (Maulana) Yunus Patel (RA)!

I keep asking you to give me examples of where Deobandi Ulama have treated other Deobandi Ulama (whom they disagree) with in such a manner? Give me examples from our Akabir.

We absolutely respect Hazrat A. S. Desai (HA) but we will NOT standby when other Akabir are being abused in such manner.

I don’t know why you can’t see that calling a Senior Alim a “Reverend” and deliberately changing his name from “Ebrahim” to “Abraham” is not a matter of disagreement between Ulama at all; it is downright ABUSE!

Starting up an entire FAKE ORGANISATION called UUCSA to deliberately mislead Muslims of South Africa who trust the union of various Ulama bodies (real UUCSA) is NOT an Ulama disagreement!

Issue 2:

Then we discuss the Fatwaas themselves. The Fatwaas on Qiblah, vaccination, Blood transfusion, Pepsi, Alcohol are based on “conspiracy theories” and Daily Mirror sensationalism (science) and to declare things Haram based on hocus-pocus (science) IS NOT a matter of Fiqh it is a matter of not having the prerequisite scientific knowledge and background.

MJC is the representative organisation of most South African Shaf’aes and to then issue statements about Shaf’ae Madhab based on 2 lines when there is an entire discussion by Shaf’ae Ulama (in both Arabic and English) explaining and outlining the issue is just confusing the masses. Which Deobandi (Hanafi) Ulama do you know you issue Fatwaas on Shaf’ae Madhab in direct contradiction to the Shaf’ae Ulama and Muftees of the land? Name me EXAMPLES and references, please!

 

Come clean?

It’s time for you and all defenders to come clean and say “Yes we do not know the science of the Fiqh behind these Fatwaas (and neither do we have the capability to investigate and understand) but out of respect and trust of Hazrat (HA) we trust and propagate them”

You admitted that you don’t believe laymen can’t disagree with Ulama (Alhumdolillah) but 99.9% of those who are disagreeing simply disagree on the premise that he is a Senior Alim of Taqwa (who are you?).

Nothing solid, nothing substantial pure rhetoric.

Why discuss this?

If this was a purely South African issue then we would consign it to the South African Ulama but this is beginning to affect Pakistanees (already stated by a Brother from Karachi about SANHA). SANHA has an alliance with Darul-uloom Binori Town (Karachi) and other Ulama, the most Senior and reputable Ulama in Pakistan back SANHA and here is a teenager from Karachi saying I don’t trust it because Shaykh (Mufti) A. S. Desai (HA) has talks against it.

The question he hasn’t answered are:

WHAT DOES a teenager from Karachi know which Ulama of Darul-uloom Binori Town (Karachi) don’t know?

Sister Maria is another flipper-flopper she sends questions then gets a response and then gets confused, based on what?

Deobandi History?

You have your views and nobody is asking you to change or agree with what is being said but you are being asked to at least consider maybe Shaykh (Maulana) Yasin (HA) is looking at something which you are unable to grasp (not out of stupidity but out of not having the full picture).

The most stringent and heated disagreement in the history of Deobandees was between Shaykh (Maulana) Ashraf Ali Thanwi (RA) and Shaykhul-Isam (Maulana) Hussain Ahmed Madani (RA) how did they address each other?

I mean who out of these Ulama are Kuffar, Fussaq, Fujjar who need to be abused and plotted against?

  1. Shaykh (Maulana) Ebrahim Bham (HA)
  2. Shaykh (Mufti) Taha Karaan (HA)
  3. Shaykh (Maulana) Yunus Patel (HA)
  4. Shaykh (Maulana) Tariq Jameel (HA)
  5. etc etc etc

These Ulama are NOT Shias, they are NOT Barelwee, they are NOT Qadiyanees they are Deobandees.

Polite Request:

You have your views and nobody is asking you to change or agree with what is being said but you are being asked to at least consider maybe Shaykh (Maulana) Yasin (HA) is looking at something which you are unable to grasp (not out of stupidity but out of not having the full picture).

I fully take your view on board that you are unable to dissect a Fatwa and break it down into its constitutes and analyse it (thoroughly) but surely you CANNOT in your heart of heart agree with  the abuse of Ulama right before your eyes!

Women attending Mosque issue:

Offtopic:

Lastest Fatwa on askimam

Last line declares it Makrooh and uses the following as source:

( ويكره حضورهن الجماعة ) ولو لجمعة وعيد ووعظ ( مطلقا ) ولو عجوزا ليلا ( على المذهب ) المفتى به لفساد الزمان

You are requested to go to any Alim of your choice and have the commentary translated (which has been ommited from the answer). Some of the South African Ulama were recently challenged on the issue by other Ulama and I do happen to have the discussion (which is not for public consumpton); suffice to say that I feel confident enough for you to take the issue to Ulama and starting from Nabi (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) to the Sahabiyaat (RA) and genuinly research the issue.

If you don't want to do that here is Shaykh (Mufti) Taqi Usmani (HA) on the issue (in Urdu):

Halalified YT Audio

I guess that you DO NOT consider this to be Haram or Makrooh-Tahreemi anyways

Disclaimer:

Nowhere in the post above is Hazrat A. S. Desai (HA) abused, disrespected or reviled but I have stated facts (as humanly and objectively) as possible and willing to retract, apologise, seek forgiveness for whatever turns out to be (human) error, misleading or misinterpretation.

As Allah (SWT) is my witness I have not set out to mislead or misinterpret anything.

Putting Ulama aside, Hashim Amla is one of the nicest people you will ever meet, he acted in conjunction and Mushwara with his Shaykh (Maulana) Yunus Patel (RA) what on earth has the guy done SO WRONG to deserve downright vile and poisonous abuse?

What is my fault?

I have discussed issues which majority of people feel in the heart but don't talk about it!

 

Arfatzafar wrote:
View original post

Jazakallahu Khayran for providing a refernce, please add it your post. Please ensure that you have correctly understood and translated the text and then remind me in 4-5 days once the discussion with Khala is concluded to address your post because it has errors.

If I reply to it now the discussion between me and Khala will go offtrack.

report post quote code quick quote reply
+2 -1Dislike x 1Winner x 2Old x 1
back to top
Rank Image
ummi taalib's avatar
Unspecified
2,486
Sister
2,902
ummi taalib's avatar
#60 [Permalink] Posted on 16th September 2014 13:23
Jazakallah to you brother muadh for the calm discussion.....because theres no talking you when you get "upset" (no smiley but sting not intended)

1. It’s time for you and all defenders to come clean and say “Yes we do not know the science of the Fiqh behind these Fatwaas (and neither do we have the capability to investigate and understand) but out of respect and trust of Hazrat (HA) we trust and propagate them”
true in my case


2. I fully take your view on board that you are unable to dissect a Fatwa and break it down into its constitutes and analyse it (thoroughly) but surely you CANNOT in your heart of heart agree with the abuse of Ulama right before your eyes!

a. yes i admit openly that i have absolutely no knowledge of analysing a fatwa or of academic discussions on such matters (or any other shar'ee matter).
b. What is in the heart remains there and is not for public view on a public forum inshaAllah. Whether i agree or disagree with the respected Shaykh's fatwas on other Ulama is for me to know


3. Deobandi History?

You have your views and nobody is asking you to change or agree with what is being said but you are being asked to at least consider maybe Shaykh (Maulana) Yasin (HA) is looking at something which you are unable to grasp (not out of stupidity but out of not having the full picture).


I keep asking you to give me examples of where Deobandi Ulama have treated other Deobandi Ulama (whom they disagree) with in such a manner? Give me examples from our Akabir.

a. I am aware of the charachters of the pious predecessors and i cannot recall any such examples
b. I consider it however I feel you needlessly keep bringing in my "protest" (if you can even call it that). I have fully explained my reasoning and I fully acknowledge i would not be able to grasp all the inner intricacies and Mawlana Yasin accepts it so why cant you?

4. I will inshaAllah not comment on the fatwas issued by the respected Shaykh on any of the ulama because
a. i dont have any information on any of the matters
b. it is not my place
c. I keep thinking of the hadith where Allah ta'ala declares war against those who are the enemies of His friends....even discussing such matters makes me fearful

I think that about covers it...
I wont be able to check again for a good few hours

You know what? I'm beginning to feel like part of a tamasha with everyone watching but i'm persevering as I've never had such an opportunity before...everything somehow gets out of hand and thread disappear to never never land



report post quote code quick quote reply
+3 -0Like x 2Winner x 1Old x 1
back to top