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Understanding & Reviving the Sunnah of Moon Sighting in Britain

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abu mohammed
#61 [Permalink] Posted on 8th July 2017 08:30
I was reading this:

Due to repeated errors and doubts about Testimony on hilal coming from khyber province, (some times by large group of people), wait and watch policy is adopted and decision is taken based on confirmation from other places. No one tried to prove miracle eyes of locals in khyber.

And some times positive hilal's decision was limited to khyber province only.

Hope Saudi follows Pakistan in this matter.
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#62 [Permalink] Posted on 8th July 2017 09:55
Guest-30088 wrote:
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Can I ask you what you've concluded, you started with Saudi, tried arguing, dodged all the questions, educated yourself in the meantime, changed sides, still posting but not admitting.

Clarify
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#63 [Permalink] Posted on 8th July 2017 11:03
May I ask you, what did you conclude from my first post. Re-read all my posts unbiased. And read all lines. don't conclude by reading a few words in the posts. This is related to deen.
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#64 [Permalink] Posted on 8th July 2017 13:59
So, you basically posted those view, added your view to it in conclusion. Made it very badly known and got mixed with other guest posts.

Anyway, I conclude that you agree with not following Saudi but you don't know how to make it clear, or that you were playing the "Riddler"

Riddle me this, riddle me that.....
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#65 [Permalink] Posted on 8th July 2017 14:14
yesterday whilst driving back to London i saw there was a full moon despite it only being 12th night ( if u did eid on mon). does that mean its possible that wifaqul ulema can announce zil qadah on 28th shawwal as we are officially a day behind.
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#66 [Permalink] Posted on 8th July 2017 16:33
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#67 [Permalink] Posted on 8th July 2017 21:47
apologies ignore my last post i miscalculated. fri night was 13th shawwal not 12th i forgot to include sunday
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#68 [Permalink] Posted on 10th July 2017 09:30

mkdon101 wrote:
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mkdon101 wrote:
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Please click on FAQ and if your query is not there, submit to the site.

www.wifaqululama.co.uk/big-moon/

Anonymous wrote:
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Anonymous wrote:
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You are absolutely correct in quoting this. These matters have been discussed with Ulama and sent to Darul-ulooms, Ulama are aware.

Saudi Moon Sighting for Britain

In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful.

As-salāmu ‘alaykum wa-rahmatullāhi wa-barakātuh

Every single argument in favour of following Saudi Moonsighting hinges upon the dependency of lack of a credible Moonsighting system. Saudi Ulama state the same. Hazrat Shaykhul-Islam Mufti Taqi Usmani Saheb (Damat Baraktuhum) states that for countries where there isn’t a credible Moonsighting there is room to follow Saudi Arabia.

Britain has a credible monthly Moonsighting system.

Formally this is the 11th year (running) where Wifaqul Ulama has attempted to and announced the start of Islamic months based on Moonsighting. Data for the past 6 years is publicly available on our site as follows: 

  1. 1438
  2. 1437
  3. 1436
  4. 1435
  5. 1434
  6. 1433

Shaykh Muhammad ibn al Uthaymeen (RA) writes:

والصواب أنه يختلف باختلاف المطالع ، فمثلا إذا كان الهلال قد رؤي بمكة ، وكان هذا اليوم هو اليوم التاسع ، ورؤي في بلد آخر قبل مكة بيوم وكان يوم عرفة عندهم اليوم العاشر فإنه لا يجوز لهم أن يصوموا هذا اليوم لأنه يوم عيد ، وكذلك لو قدر أنه تأخرت الرؤية عن مكة وكان اليوم التاسع في مكة هو الثامن عندهم ، فإنهم يصومون يوم التاسع عندهم الموافق ليوم العاشر في مكة ، هذا هو القول الراجح ، لأن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم يقول ( إذا رأيتموه فصوموا وإذا رأيتموه فأفطروا ) وهؤلاء الذين لم ير في جهتهم لم يكونوا يرونه ، وكما أن الناس بالإجماع يعتبرون طلوع الفجر وغروب الشمس في كل منطقة بحسبها ، فكذلك التوقيت الشهري يكون كالتوقيت اليومي . [ مجموع الفتاوى 20 ]

The correct view is that it varies according to when the moon rises in different places. For example, if the moon is sighted in Makkah, and today is the ninth, and it is sighted elsewhere one day before Makkah, and the day of ‘Arafah in Makkah is the tenth for them, it is not permissible for them to fast on this day because it is Eid. Similarly if it so happens that they sight the moon after Makkah, and the 9th in Makkah is the 8th for them, then they should fast the day that is the 9th for them, which is the 10th in Makkah. This is the correct view, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “When you see it (the new moon) fast and when you see it break your fast.” Those who did not see the moon in their own location have not seen it. Just as people are unanimously agreed that the times for dawn and sunset vary according to their own location, so too the months are also worked out by location, just like the daily timings. [Majmoo’ al-Fataawa, 20.]

Saudi scholars then come go a step further and categorically state that Muslims in Britain should sight the moon (in United Kingdom) or follow the country closest to them.

وإذا كان المسلمون في بريطانيا يتحرون الهلال ، فعلى المسلمين هناك التقيد برؤيتهم ، وإلا فبرؤية أقرب البلدان إليهم

If the Muslims in Britain have sighted the new moon, then the Muslims in that country should follow their sighting, otherwise they should follow the sighting of the country closest to them.

جزاك اللهُ خيرًا

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#69 [Permalink] Posted on 10th July 2017 13:30
xs11ax wrote:
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I mentioned photos just as another example of many other issues such as moon-sighting where the Ulama differ and that we laymen should leave such matters to them while respecting the difference. And the response I get from a layman to a another layman like myself is "Let me know when you want to discuss the Daleel for photos too bro". If that's not stupidity then what is?

Let's try again.

Moon-sighting, photos and dozens of other issues in which there is difference of the Ulama (I'm talking about authentic ones only) in the UK, then what is our role as layman who do Taqleed of them? Is it

1) We take one opinion as the only right opinion and condemn, criticize and even ridicule the other opinion and the Ulama who hold that opinion.

2) Or we recognize our status as laymen and our lack of ability to understand the evidences and reasons why Ulama might come to their conclusion, especially in these modern times in the West where the ruling can and does change. It is not the job of laymen to delve into the evidences for such things, and we should leave such matters to the Ulama who are actually living here, and also respect both sides even if we take and agree with one position.

My point is that option 2 is the only option for us laymen and we are completely unqualified to understand let alone discuss the evidences. But the response I keep getting is "Let me, an unqualified ignoramus, analyze and criticize the evidences of authentic Ulama with you, another unqualified ignoramus" lol
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#70 [Permalink] Posted on 10th July 2017 14:42

Anonymous wrote:
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The role of laymen (and Ulama) is the same which is to acknowledge the difference of opinion and respect it. This is exactly and precisely what needs to be done.

In your seething anger and hatred, you are making random accusations and assumptions about others. If you are a “layman” then don’t assume automatically that everybody who seems to disagree with you is also a “layman”.

Secondly, there is no problems with holding a difference of opinion but the nuances of application of those opinion must be pointed out. Here are two examples:

  1. The limited permissibility of following Saudi Arabia for “European countries” with regards to Moon sighting given by Mufti Taqi Usmani (HA) is for countries with no established Moon sighting system. Britain does!
  2. There is no problems with holding the view that photography is totally unacceptable and forbidden. It is fine to hold such a view.  

The first argument was discussed in front of Mufti Yusuf Sacha Saheb (HA) and it is his opinion that UK has a valid and credible Moon sighting system. In my opinion it is than dishonest and disingenuous to apply Mufti Taqi Usmani (HA)’s Fatwa on UK.

The second argument comes from (Maulana) Ilyas Ghumman (HA). In my opinion, it is then dishonest and disingenuous to permit photography to take a trip to London (for Aitekaaf, Chanda collection) but disallow it to defend Islam on youtube.

In order for you to respond to something, you need to understand it first.

Nobody is arguing against the Ulama who disallow and declare photography to be impermissible. Nobody is arguing against the Ulama when they consider visiting London to be a “valid Islamic need” to override this prohibition and get HARD PHOTOGRAPHS. What is being argued with is that they cannot disagree THEN with “other Ulama” who consider appearing on youtube (in digital videos) to defend Islam as a valid need.

Just as the first group of Ulama have used Ijtehaad to classify visiting London a valid need. The second of Ulama have used Ijtehaad to classify “defending Islam on youtube” a valid need. Both opinions should be equally respected; that is the whole point of trying to discuss photography!

The whole issue is indeed about respecting differences of opinion. In your haste, hatred and bigotry you have misunderstood it and flipped it on its head (in your mind’s eye).

Let me repeat again! If the Ulama have the right to override serious and genuine prohibition of photography to visit London (to collect Chanda) then other Ulama have the right to override serious and genuine prohibition to defend Islam.

DO YOU GET IT???

Additional (but important) Point:

A brother emailed me a few days ago and he said that he understands my point but believes that Islam cannot be defended by indulging in Haram. It is not permissible to use photography (Haram) to defend the Deen.

I asked him, why is it permissible to:

  1. Indulge in Haram and collect Chanda for a Darul-uloom?
  2. Indulge in Haram and perform Aitekaaf in Ramadhan?
  3. Indulge in Haram and do Umrah?

No answer!

All I am asking people to do is to step back, think and then act.

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#71 [Permalink] Posted on 10th July 2017 22:45
AssalaamWW,

Ummmm think theres some sort of mass amnesia in some aspects of this thread. How comes the history of the hilal issue in the UK as far as the Deobandis are concerned has been COMPLETED IGNORED. A history outlined clearly in person by Mufti Saeed Palanpuri who was here (in Bolton UK) back in Ramdhan 1985 when most of us on this thread were kids or teenagers.

Page two here : www.croydonmosque.com/pdf/The_History_of_the_UK_following...

Or is Mufti Saeed, who was here in Bolton in Ramdhan 1985, making this all up ???

Cant find his whole Ramdhan 2007 groundbreaking* talk on the history of Moonsighting in UK where he clearly states the "arrogance/egos of ulama" are the basis of why the Deobandis in the UK mostly follow Saudi (please dont run after me with your guns blazing for saying that. Those are Mufti Saeed's own words given in public to about 500 people in Ramdhan 2007. Go take it up with him if you have an issue) , but here are some parts from the net:

* i use the term "groundbreaking" as in all my 40 years its the only talk in exsistence that covers the actual UK history from a first persons eye witness perspective rather then "i heard it from so and so that back in the 80s" ...

Youtube Video
some mins here discussing 1985 but still not the complete recording of that part of his talk
Youtube Video
one section
Youtube Video
more here
Youtube Video
another section
Youtube Video
another further section
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#72 [Permalink] Posted on 11th July 2017 11:20
ali wrote:
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It is on recored and they have done it before. We can either listen to the lectures above or simply read what it says on the video text

Apologies in advance if it leaves an imprint on your eyes for a few minutes.


*Imprint
Quote:
There are two parts to this. Firstly our eyes/brain adapt to things that are constant and when these things are removed then our brain has to readjust. This is quite quick taking about 15~30sec. The second mechanism is a bit more complicated. When the sense cells absorb light the pigment becomes activated this changes its shape and triggers a cascade of chemical events that result in an electrical signal. However, the activated pigment keeps triggering signals until it is deactivated. This is what makes the after image after a bright flash, and can take many minutes to disappear.


Maybe what is being seen by the miracle eye is an imprint ;)

Look at the dot in this rainbow for 20 seconds (close up) then look up, you'll see a rainbow in thin air.
28 days of Ramadhan in Saudi did happen.JPG
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#73 [Permalink] Posted on 11th July 2017 12:11

abu mohammed wrote:
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personally speaking I'm unable to comment either way on that article image ...pure coincidence it was used as the image for that audio recording of Mufti Saeed.  Tbh i didnt even read it....

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#74 [Permalink] Posted on 11th July 2017 12:15
Daywalk3r wrote:
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It doesn't matter really. Yes anyone can add an image to sometihng totally different, but here is another fact.
Quote:
a 28-day Ramadan is not without precedent, as it happened about 30 years ago in 1984 (1404 Hijri calendar), when the start date of Ramadan was incorrectly calculated, admitted the supreme cleric authority of Saudi Arabia to Gulfnews.[/quote]
From an article about a repeat possibility of another 28 days www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/06/28-day-ramadan-saudi_n_...
[quote]so in 1984 Muslims were encouraged by Saudi Arabian clerics to make up the day of missed fasting by either fasting after Eid, or by feeding 10 poor people.

This mass disagreement is not uncommon, as there was worldwide confusion over the start date of Ramadan this year.
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#75 [Permalink] Posted on 12th July 2017 09:57
Old qna, but is this a valid position still or has mufti tosir changed his answer
daruliftabirmingham co uk/designating-the-time-of-sehri-in-ramadhan/

sorry its not on topic, but it is related
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