Muslim family of 13 convert to Hinduism to pressure police after murder

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#121 [Permalink] Posted on 19th October 2018 17:16

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Here in down southern part of india many college students are reverting without knowledge of their family members. Thus taking care of these reverts has many more challenges. Like getting them married and financial support till they get settle down in a job and life.

In my previous company where I was employed there was one revert sister. It was not easy for her. Alhamdulilah after lot of struggles she got married and settled. Similarly there was another revert brother, he too faced many obstacles.

Like this I do know some more cases of revert brothers and sisters and their struggle. Thus from close experience I would say that sending them in tabligh and educating them on islam is one part, to help them on personal issues after they revert to islam is the biggest where we should help them especially in the cases of revert sisters.

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#122 [Permalink] Posted on 19th October 2018 17:32

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Like this I do know some more cases of revert brothers and sisters and their struggle. Thus from close experience I would say that sending them in tabligh and educating them on islam is one part, to help them on personal issues after they revert to islam is the biggest where we should help them especially in the cases of revert sisters.

Urgent attention required. It should not happen that these reverts return back.

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#123 [Permalink] Posted on 19th October 2018 17:53

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Most of them don't because they reverted on finding out haq at the same time we can't relax.

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#124 [Permalink] Posted on 19th October 2018 18:55

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I am far from being an "Elite members" of this forum, but I start being interested "in this subject" more than 10 years ago, and start "to analysis it in deep" around 10 years ago. So I hope that sharing this simple analysis will help in a way or an other. Maybe I am wrong, but here my thoughts.

I will not write some advance article, rather I will try to outline the problem, even if it will look wired at start.

Beware, this is not directed at anyone in particular.

The starting point

To make it short, to solve a problem, we have to find its root. Identifying multiple of them, like here www.muftisays.com/forums/37-news-articles/12204-muslim-fa..., can help to find the root, especially when they are related. If you want a cure, you do not try to fight the symptoms, but the origin of the illness.

So we have to grab all the needed information, to answer the first question.
â€¢ Where is the starting point of all these problems?

All starts with some laxness in the Muslim Community. With time, Muslim get more and more attach to this world, and slowly but surely, they take less care to their religion. The "shifting" was maybe between the Umayyad Caliphate and the Abbasid Caliphate, and the slow decline did not stop.

The root cause

Later, the Ottoman Khalifa, decadent, collapsed through different factors, but the central one was the same as with Umayyad Caliphate and the Abbasid Caliphate:

Laxity towards Islam.

Then the unbelievers colonized the Muslim Lands. They try to forbid the teaching of Islam (India, Egypt, Africa, etcâ€¦), even, in some area, make the population illiterate, and even massacre them, even with some complicity inside the Muslims (what happens even today). But Allah protects Islam, and Scholars, with average Muslims, did not gave upâ€¦

With more or less success, the unbelievers have contributed to the decline triggered by the Muslims themselves. Until today, the effort of the unbelievers, to pervert the worldwide nations, among them the Muslims, are manifest. And the Muslims are more laxâ€¦

Now, we have a lot of Muslims throughout the world, among them 3 "particular" groups,

there are ignorant Muslims,
people held to be Muslims,
the lax among Muslims

1) The ignorant Muslims

The ignorant Muslims are so ignorant, that they cannot protect their religion. They are attracted by the West style life, copy/paste them, and do not give so much importance to Islam.
If you "quiz" their faith, you will find such gap, that make you sad. So much negligenceâ€¦ Yet these Muslims waste their time all the day, instead of learning their Religion (watching tv, chatting, etcâ€¦).

What they know about Islam? Well few things:

Few point of Iman
How to pray
How to fast (even worst, some did not understand when start the fast, and believe that it starts with the rising sunâ€¦)

Thatâ€™s it. A lot of them do not pray on a regular basis, but only the jumuâ€™a, and sometime during holidaysâ€¦

Their religion is more or less focused on practice. But not in Imanâ€¦

Yet, they live in the delusion that they know a lot about Islam. But they do not have any real concept of â€˜Aqida in their mind. They do not know what exactly the pillars of faith are.
They do not really understand what is Qadar. Yet they think that they are like a shining light. In this evermore dangerous world, everything should be done to protect oneâ€™s faith. But they do nothing suchâ€¦

It reminds me some storiesâ€¦

His Christian friend

One day, a Muslim related me the story of one of his Christian friend. The latter found great difficulties to find a job. Despite all his efforts, he could not get a job. So he concluded that was from Godâ€™s will. What did say the Muslim to his friend?

"No, this is not. This is your fault. You can find, for sure, your job."

He told to me that he insisted, but he mocked his Christian friend that did not "abdicate".
I try to say to this Muslim, that the Christian was right to say that, because everything is ONLY IF Allah will. And you can not have what you want without Allahâ€™s Will. Everything happens through Allahâ€™s will.
What did say the Muslim?

"No, I do not believe in that".

I told him that was from the faith of a Muslim to believe in this point. And again he told me

"I refuse to believe in that".

When I bring to him the potential consequences of his words, he insisted and again repeat me

"I refuse to believe in that".

The Haram Work

Another day, I tried to make aware, a Muslim father, of the incontestable Haram nature of his sonâ€™s work.
What did the father answer?

"What is bad? My son earn his money. He do not steal anybody. He have a good job/position."

Event when citing critical Ahadith, the father did not stop to be proud of his sonâ€¦

Until one collapses

If you try to convince this category of Muslim, to learn their religion, most of them will find all reasons to not to do so.

How many time have I tried to convince illiterate people to start learning how to read, and the ones who know how to read to start learning their religion in a regular basisâ€¦ "Not possibleâ€¦" Even if they both have time for entertainingâ€¦

What they do is living in delusion of being a good Muslim, where the dounia is the goal. Until the weaker of them collapsesâ€¦

I even heard such thingsâ€¦ I even have been told that

"work is a â€˜ibada in the same way as prayer. So it is fine to pray all the salat at the end of they day, after workâ€¦"

Or, "I have to submit to my Boss"â€¦
Or, "Marriage is half the faith, it is so important, too important, in Islam" yet they did not prayâ€¦
Or "Having children is so important, too important in Islam", yet they did not prayâ€¦

How could not they err?

Worst of all, they will have children (often too much), and will rise them in more ignorance as they are, because the world is getting worse and worse, and this group too. Leaving these children, living in far greater danger.

Now, you get the other groupâ€¦

2) Held to be Muslims

They have grown in family that is said to be "Muslim". But they ignore so much, that lot of them are not different from a lot of unbelievers.

What they do to be Muslim? They do not eat pork, but, lot of them, drink alcoholâ€¦ They have "partners", not pray, even not fast, but worst, the only thing they know about Islam is "Allah" and "Muhammad is our Prophet". That's it. This is more a cultural root than anything else.

They slur against other Prophets, even some Sahaba, even worstâ€¦ I heard such basenessâ€¦
I do not say that they are all unbelievers, but they are far from being a good Muslimâ€¦ And some of them are clearly unbelieversâ€¦

Now if you try to speak Islam with them, from the top of their ignorance, a lot of them will mock youâ€¦ Or designate you as extremist, only because you say that being a Muslim is to submit to Allahâ€¦

They did not learn Islam from their Parents, and have been corrupt, from the cradle, with the Western valuesâ€¦ The work is very, very hard to bring them back.

3) The Laxists

Not all, but lot of us are lax, but too much of us. We are weakâ€¦ Just look at this forum. I have started to read it, say around ~7 years ago.

How many answer with proper salam when it is written? Fewâ€¦
How that? What about this fatwa: www.albalagh.net/qa/0173.shtml

Personally, I think that the forum was more strict in the past, and the members did respect much more than today the rules. Look at the Fiqh/Question area.

Why I have been able to post so much? Yet there are moderatorsâ€¦ Each time they validate posts that should not have been validate. Even mines, whereas I should not have done soâ€¦

Here some quotes from muftisays
www.muftisays.com/forums/86-qa-support--fiqh/8502-fiqh-qa...

3. Answers can only be works of qualified scholars available online or must be sourced clearly such as publications.

4. Members cannot answer directly even if you are a qualified scholar (please see next rule)

This is not a discussion area, yet, Muslims do not understand this, rather, do not want to understand this.

They are rules, and they are obviously transgressed. Muslims give their opinions, whereas the area is for fatwa and proofâ€¦ (In other forums as wellâ€¦) Muslims write as if this concerned worldliness. Yet we are talking about Islam.

Some topics contain debates, outside the reserved sectionâ€¦ And again, no ban, no warnings,â€¦

Yes, now the ignorant talks as a Shaykh and gives fatwaâ€¦ do some "on the fly Tafsir", and even mere little student dare to contest the fatwa of great Muftis (I really assist to thisâ€¦)

The worst is that the bad behavior is less and less sanctionedâ€¦ And Muslims tolerate what even unbelievers do not tolerate in their Q/A websitesâ€¦ It is a shame.

The rules are no more really respected, and as a consequence, Muslims, now, do not respect their elders.

Yes they are some problems with some mismatches between some teaching and the reality. But the reality is that we are all responsible of all our problems.

Why are we not able to explain to our elders some problems, before any of them occur? (Exactly the opposite of Abu Hanifaâ€™s methodologyâ€¦) Are we no more able to prevent problems? Are we becoming too much "self-oriented"?

"New" Shaykhs widespread Bidâ€™a and wrong fatwa, yet, we do not hear anymore so much from Mufis to warn against themâ€¦ And seems that all these kind of old fatwas have been removed from websitesâ€¦

Why this happens? Why letting all these "reformers" of Islam being Shaykhs, without trying to do so? If they are so bad, why letting them? Why not trying to fill the gap?

Take only the example of bidâ€™aâ€¦ Look at this fatwa:

www.deoband.org/2010/07/general/principles-of-fiqh/the-co...

I love so much this fatwa, because this IS the truth. Yet, Muslims believe in good and bad bidâ€™aâ€¦ and most are unaware of this fatwa, when some Shaykhs reject itâ€¦.

How is it possible whereas it is a jewel? Laxnessâ€¦

Everything is not bad. Al Hamdulillah, they are a lot of good Muslims. And some converted have accomplished, mashaâ€™Allah, in less time what a lot of present born Muslim have never done.

But, again, there are laxness, always a bit more, that seems nothing, but that is unacceptableâ€¦

Slowly, Muslims move from laxness to make themselves responsible to waste their time on Watching TV, playing Video Games, Social Media, compete with unbelievers in their fieldâ€¦ Running after fame, money, and rankâ€¦ rather than building, continuously, a stronger faith.

Solutions

So the root of the problem of irtidad is not leaving the Sunnah (particularly the emphasized), which is a consequence. If a Muslim starts leaving, durably without excuse, the Sunnahs, it is because he is ignorant such that his â€˜Aqida, his Iman is somehow deficient. Now it is not surprising to see such Muslim first leaving the Sunnah, and gradually going astrayâ€¦

And beware, this can potentially concern any "Lax Muslim", as being lax betrayed some deficiency in the Imanâ€¦

So make your faith, at least, as solid as iron. And you will live appeased. And do not believe that there is a end. IT is an endless work.

As to unbelievers, evangelists, and others, they will fear youâ€¦ They will not dare to approach you, nor any member of your family. And If they hurt you, or your family, do not forget the Akhira. Do not forget that this world is illusion. Do not forget the Judgment Day. And do not forget that "we belong to Allah, and to Him we shall return".

Make your family as solid as rock. And if you cannot make them as solid, restrain to give birth to 12 or more children, in this world full of perversion. Because what was possible in the past, especially in Muslim lands, is no more possibleâ€¦

Rather, first strengthens your faithâ€¦ And then rise 12 children stronger than you, ONLY if you canâ€¦ The quality over the quantityâ€¦

What does it means to have a strong faith?
If the Iman of a Muslim is at least sound, he knows that (not exhaustive, only examples related to the topic)

Allah is the creator of ALL things
He is the creator of the Souls that reside in their respective body
A parent is not the creator
A parent is first of All a soul that have been created before being put in that world, like every soul,
All souls have one unique creator, Allah;
Parents are those who will educate this soul;
As Parents, Children belong to Allah;
And do not forget that this physical world will not lastâ€¦ But the Akhira willâ€¦

Obviously, these 13 did not really know all these "points", nor did understand them, nor truly believe in them.

Now why?

Why having gave birth to 12 children, taking too much time to rise them, but yet, not taking time to learn your religion, and build a firm faith?
Why growing up, and not trying to learn your religion?
Why growing up, and not trying to read in regular basis "books" about Iman, Islam, etcâ€¦ if there is no Shaykh around?
Why being lax?
WHY GROWING UP, RISING CHILDREN, WHILE NOT TRYING TO KNOW YOUR CREATOR?

And so oneâ€¦

Because they did bad choice. They prioritize this dounia, instead of the Akhira. They prioritize this world, their family instead of Allahâ€¦ Obviously, there is a problem with the Imanâ€¦

You can say that the community did not do the job to educate them. But before the communal obligation, there is an individual obligation/responsibility.

We have to admit that we are responsible.

To be ignorant
To be busy by internal war
To be lax
To be to much attach to this world,
To be weak
etcâ€¦

Finally that a lot of Muslim are so conceit, that make them fall, soon or laterâ€¦

Now what should we do? (This is not an exhaustive list)

Reform oneself (Respect Islam, admit the truth, and only truth, stop lying to oneself, etcâ€¦)
Stop all form of laxness
Learn in a regular basis, the base of our religion;
Learn who is Allah;
Stop prioritizing the Dunia (my son is a doctor, my daughter is married to such rich man; I want moneyâ€¦)
Erase all possible divergences (My Shaykh of such Nationality is better than your Shaykh, and conversely, and all these stupid things)
Restore discipline and respectâ€¦
Go where people are really needy, not necessary in city (this my area of tabligh! no! Mineâ€¦), and provide them what is really needed (like prioritizing Iman before Islam)â€¦ Because a man who practices with wrong/invalid Iman is not a Muslimâ€¦ But a man with the good Iman and no Islam is a sinner, but a Muslimâ€¦
Of course, start with, and not stop to MAKE A LOT OF DUâ€™A

And Incha Allah, Allah will grant us success.

May Allah brings them back to Islam, guides All of us, and helps us to build stronger faith and love between Muslims.

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#125 [Permalink] Posted on 19th October 2018 19:15

Yes it is difficult for converts and children of converts to get married, especially when they are of different backgrounds.

But how can we expect any different , when we are taught in the name of kufu, and Maulanas try to enforce that, for e.g Surti Gujratis can only marry Surti Gujaratis. Marrying any another Asian (brown person) is extremely frowned upon, so how can one marry someone from another ethnicity or race?

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#126 [Permalink] Posted on 20th October 2018 03:07

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Is this true? Due Ulama encourage people not to marry outside of their community?

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#127 [Permalink] Posted on 20th October 2018 09:50

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Ulema may be recommending marriage inside their own society, may be they had bitter experiences. Food habits, language, life style would have caused friction in marriages. There is nothing wrong there, that is proven from salaf. But they can't make it obligatory.

But if it is done due to regionalism or racism, then other society can also use their privilege to reject them, why we want our girls to be married to gujaratis only. Why don't we look for an urdu or bengali speaking boys. Why do we reject our own urdu/bengali speaking boy/girl.

the locals can accept reverts as second wives. But first marriage also must be a simple, or to a widow or a poor lady with a precondition that he shall have more than wife.. Not that first marriage extravaganza is for myself, my family and second marriage is to serve deen.

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#128 [Permalink] Posted on 20th October 2018 11:00

I felt ashamed after reading this quote from Ali Mian Nadvi RA

Ab musalmanoen ki zahniath ayesi hoe gayee hai ke koyee sailaab bhi aa jatha hai toe khush jaatay hain,chalo achha huva jitni hi pareshaani hoe theek hai. kaheen aag lag jaathi hai toe khush hoe jaathay hain aur ab ayesi zahniyath pasth hoe gayee ke agar cricket mein, hockey mein mulk ki team haar jaaye toe khush hothay hain aur kisi islami mulk ki team jeeth jaaye toe khush hothay hain,eh bilkul tiflana zahniyath hai, eis say kaam naheen chalayga. Sachi hamdardi aap ke andar paida honi chahiye ke hum jis mulk mein rahtay hain as say hamein hamdardi hoe, hamaray aslaaf karam nay eis mulk koe banaya hai.

Our mindset is at so low that, in our own country if tragedy strikes; like, floods etc, sufferings make us happy. We welcome tragedies like fire etc.

And we have sunk so low that it makes us happy when our country loses a game, like cricket, hockey etc. We get happy when a muslim nation wins the game. This is a childish behavior, we can't move on like this. We must create true attachment towards the country we live in; knowing that our Aslaaf created this nation.
..................................................................................................

My comments based on personal experiences:

Didn't we create enmity with majority group by openly displaying cricket score board of pak games, bursting crackers when results go their way. Displaying photos of their players on taxis and auto rickshaws. knowing this hurts the majority. For months, community viewing of repeat video of "last ball six" game. Didn't this childish behavior distance the secular majority from us. Apni qabr khudh aap khode hain.

We must regain our last glory, our grand fathers used to host their daughters when hindus embarked on their religious journey for months. They trusted and preferred we muslim neighbors over their own near relatives or neighbors for safety of their daughters. Ya Allah make us to recreate that trust on us.

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#129 [Permalink] Posted on 20th October 2018 11:08

Soulaimani wrote:

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I missed reading this. Most of it is a good analysis and towards thoughtful solutions.

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#130 [Permalink] Posted on 20th October 2018 15:17

Quote:

Is this true? Due Ulama encourage people not to marry outside of their community?

One example of a Response to question from convert:

"For harmony there has to be compatibility. And compatibility is generally in striking up a bond with someone whose ways, looks, character and lifestyle agrees with oneâ€™s own. This is normally found in people of the same culture and race.

Whilst cross-culture marriages are permissible they generally produce many upheavals, and difficult challenges which the spouses cannot bear and this ultimately leads to the breakdown of the Sacred Nikaah bond. Islam has provided the simple and lasting solution of Kufu in marriage. Marrying within oneâ€™s own race and culture creates infinitely less complications and leads to greater harmony between the husband and wife. Denial of this fact is akin to denying the midday sun.

But this does not mean that the door for cross-culture marriage is completely closed in Islam. Every situation has a solution in Islam."

www.thejamiat.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view...

There are also rules that converts aren't equal to born Muslims when looking at compatibility in marriage, so parents have the right to stop their daughters from marrying a convert. I am not sure if they also look at whether a man's parents are converts to determine equality in lineage.

I would like to research this topic and see if these rules and laws of compatibility in marriage mentioned in fiqh text have direct evidences from the Quran and Sunnah.

As the other poster said, sometimes such rulings are used to promote racsism and further racist agendas

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#131 [Permalink] Posted on 21st October 2018 10:42

I was reading this in an urdu magazine; November 2017 edition of "Payam-e-Arafath" published by Nadvis.
-----------------

It is natural to get affected by happenings around us. But unique nature of momin's is that , he finds a solution even in the worse conditions.
When we analyze the prevailing conditions; There are many reasons for this, but muslims are also at fault here, we muslims have finished our unique identity of living to benefit others and for welfare of others. Muslims living together with mushrik and idol worshipers, lost their unique islamic identity, there was no difference between muslims and non-muslims character. The soul of Islam was finished, which lead to, the distinctive difference of akhlaq and muashirath between muslims and non muslims got eroded. Muslims got weak and they became pawn in hands of politicians and they used us for their political gains.

Today's Positive is that majority in this country is continues to believes in secularism, has concern for building this country and wants to save multi-cultural society. In this background, this is a basic responsibility of muslims to prove that we are beneficial to the society, they must present a true picture of Islam and its great teachings to others. Practically present Islamic character in all walks of life, our social behavior, in trade and businesses, while travelling, in our celebrations and tragic occasions. This will reduce the gap and remove hatred towards us.

It is not necessary to be part of any movement or jamaath for this, myself as a person shall start practicing this. As a muslim if I prove myself that I am beneficent to all, then we shall witness good results. This is the only way we can survive here in this country with our unique identity. If we adopt a different zealous path or a political movement, but....... they may demand large amount of sacrifices to change the prevailing conditions.

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#132 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd October 2018 05:01

Looks like tablighis have peaked. Busy with internal lfights. But ummah needs tablighi activities.
If "yastabdil qauman gairakum", who will replace tablighis.

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#133 [Permalink] Posted on 24th October 2018 08:33

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I usually find myself pretty useless for my Communityâ€¦ And evermore hereâ€¦

Anyway, the worst thing that we can do is to only speak, and let this topic die. Then involve oneself in another topic then let it die, again and againâ€¦

I think we can use this advice more widely:

Quote:

It is not necessary to be part of any movement or jamaath (â€¦)

We should not wait for other to do thingsâ€¦ We have to stop to be laxâ€¦

What about starting a "nonprofit organization". The goal is to support, in exchange for a kind of "scholarship", learning of Islam.

In more details, I think about something like this:

Of course, it will be better if you can raise some funds from every Muslim, for buying books, and for the scholarships.
Start with rural area.
You support a family, or some members, to learn in regular basis an Islamic book, say by year. Of course, you make them start by what is needed (Iman, Islam, etcâ€¦ even learn how to read by buying them some electronic device for kids);
Try to motivate every person in this rural area.
You quiz them once a month (even with postal letter).
If possible, you meet them, or some people from this organization, once by quarter, to test their honesty.
As long as they continue, they will be rewarded by this "scholarship".
If they give up, there will be no more "scholarship".
Try to make some Scholars to get involved.

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#134 [Permalink] Posted on 24th October 2018 16:51

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I appreciate your concern for this rural Muslims.
Your suggestions must be taken seriously.

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#135 [Permalink] Posted on 24th October 2018 17:06

Guest-13962 wrote:

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But who will do that?

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Muslim family of 13 convert to Hinduism to pressure police after murder

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The starting point

The root cause

1) The ignorant Muslims

His Christian friend

The Haram Work

Until one collapses

2) Held to be Muslims

3) The Laxists

Solutions