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Indian Muslims: What Now?

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#16 [Permalink] Posted on 25th September 2019 17:56
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Support AIMIM😄,
This political party is just like JUH at the times of independence
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#17 [Permalink] Posted on 26th September 2019 07:29
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Muadh_Khan wrote:
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In your opinion, how can Indian Muslims deal with the issue of Pakistan and what should be their stance? Secondly, raising voice on Kashmir is linked with support for Pakistan, what should be the tactic to break this connection?

Pakistan is not a problem for Indian Muslims.

Maulana Mehmood Madani Sahab thinks otherwise and he recently said that he told this to Pervez Musharraf in 1998 and that he is telling this to Imran Khan now that they should stop worrying about Indian Muslims. That is rather stupid of him. Not of Imran Khan but of Maulana Mehmood Madani.

The worst repercussion of Imran Khan talking about Indian Muslims will be that the Saffronite might say, "I shall kill you or torture you because Imran Khan is worried about you". Mehmood Madani should not worry about such possibilities. It is plain silly.

Now this is a fact well known that Indian Muslims are those Muslims of undivided India who did not support Pakistan. So support for Pakistan is not on cards for us. And this point is something about which we must be very clear. Any confusion on this has big repercussions.

But then comes the question that Pakistan is, after all, a Muslim state, an Islamic state - even if on paper. Muslims of India can not hate such a country.

This again is not an impossible conundrum. The problem here is of the courage of Muslims. They should be able to say,"I am available to fight Pakistan even on the battleground but I am not available to hate Muslims".

The problem is not of Muslims but of Saffronite - if we Muslims have the courage to say so. They are on the aggression drive.

Coming back to the situation for Indian Muslims I can explain it by a parallel example - even if the strategy is not easy to implement but the solution is unique.

Let us take the example of Major Hassan Nidal of US armed forces. He opened fire in Camp Fort in USA killing several defense personnel and injuring more.

Why? Well, in summary, his duty was to motivate the battalions leaving for Iraq. So what will be parting shot of Major Nidal to departing soldiers, or the marines as they call them in US? "Go and kill those damn Arabs". Sadly Major Hassan Nidal himself is an Arab. This was a task that he simply could not have performed. It was absolutely stupid of the army top brass to assign him this duty. US is killing people, even in the Muslim world, at many places but an Arab should not be assigned to motivate killing of Arabs.

Pakistan is a Muslim country and India uses Muslim soldiers and officers in the armed forces. While engaging Pakistan in battle ground the Hindu vs Muslim angle has to be most scrupulously avoided. This is very delicate task and this task can not be ignored.

India ignored similar nuance in 1984 where Indira Gandhi kept Sikh commandos as her body guards. She had utmost trust of these soldiers but she also had stormed their most holy site - the Golden Temple. This attack was called Operation Blue Star (May-June 1984 - passe memory) and in October 1984 they body guards killed her by pumping bullets into her.

In both in Camp Fort USA and Indira Gandhi cases there was this critical lapse of judgement on part of the authorities that they were not sensitive to the sensibilities of the soldiers they employed for particular tasks.

India to some extent has waken up to the sensitivities of the Muslims regarding honour of Rasoolallah SAW but the country still has to take into account that Muslims of India can not be coerced, cajoled, threatened or brow beaten to hate other Muslims.

Sadly that is there on the agenda. This agenda is at the back of the question: Are you a Muslim first or an Indian? It is not much of a rewording if we say : Give up Islam before we except you as an India. This is blatant Islamophobia.

Unfortunately Muslims have not enunciated their position very clearly - because of obvious reason - fear of persecution.

As and when Muslims of Indian can do this - that is the way out for them.

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#18 [Permalink] Posted on 26th September 2019 10:38

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What you are asking for cannot be done in a military situation.

From the time a Soldier volunteers to when he fights, it is imperative to have cohesion and consistency in training, deployment and tactics. Military training is designed to be as realistic as possible with the enemy in mind.

Pakistan Army trains and prepares for war with India and propaganda against India & Hindus is part and parcel of it. Pakistan Army has no problems with being sensitive about India or Hindus.

Indian Army trains and prepares for war with Pakistan and China and propaganda against both (their culture and religion) is part and parcel of it. India has the added problem that there are "some" Muslims in its ranks so it has to be sensitively balanced. Indian Army has to pay "lip service" to it.

Then after training when deployment comes, there cannot be any special considerations as it saps the morale of the fighting unit. It also creates mistrust and resentment among soldiers. Then a soldier always tries to be the best and if he knows that he cannot be deployed in a certain theater then he begins to second guess himself and his promotion options are also limited.

Thus the Indian Army has no choice BUT to slowly cut down on Muslims (and Sikhs) and it is doing it. Problem is that Sikhs and Muslims are the best fighters India has, the Gorkha and other regiments cannot be deployed against Pakistan due to language barriers and tactical reasons (in large quantities at least). In Kashmir, the Rashtriya Rifles has an abundance of right wing xenophobic Hindus and it is a career advancement plan but in a large theater, Pakistan will decimate Rashtriya Rifles because it is a COIN unit and not a fully cohesive infantry unit. Its like Pakistan deploying FC or NLI to the Indian theater, they are COIN units.

The Indian Ulama should have realized it FROM DAY ONE but instead they keep encouraging Muslims to join Indian Army and this causes problem. As an (ex) Solider) I understand and agree with Indian Army leadership in discriminating against Muslims & Sikhs.

I hope you get my point.



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#19 [Permalink] Posted on 26th September 2019 12:40
Is there no middle path for Indian Uluma ?

• They May support Indian claim on Kashmir

• But they may resist and criticise the ‘atrocities’ committed by Indian Army and RSS against the people of Kashmir. Even if one considers Kashmir as part of India, which country would keep its own citizens under ‘curfew like’ restrictions for almost 53 days without a break ?

Nobody is expecting them to come out in support of Pakistan, it would be unwise for them to do so. But what is stopping them to raise their voice for the besieged Kashmiri Muslims ?
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#20 [Permalink] Posted on 26th September 2019 13:13
They could even avoid using the word Muslim when speaking out against atrocities against fellow indian citizens residing in Kashmir valley.
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#21 [Permalink] Posted on 26th September 2019 16:51
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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I have read it but I need time to process it. In my view these issues are very critical at the moment.
(1) Cutting down on Muslims is one additional injustice to them - to deny a whole community the opportunity to keep up their military tradition goes against social and natural justice.
(2) Same goes about cutting down on Sikhs. This one has one more hideous angle. Sikh were the people who were assigned duty to protect Hindus. After independence the natural choice for the same task was the army. As long as Sikhs were a sizeable portion of the armed forces the balance was maintained. Cutting down on Sikh soldiers post 1984 would certainly irk the Sikhs. The additional straw in this line of analysis is the remark by Mohan Bhagwat in RSS rally in Meerut a few years ago. He said that RSS needs only three days to be battle ready while the army needs longer time. So far only one aspect of this pronouncement has been analyzed by the Indian press - that this is derogatory to the army and hence the morale of the soldiers. Another aspect is that this is a very dire warning to Muslims. The third aspect is what is relevant in the present analysis - Sikhs should be very upset with Bhagwat and RSS. They devoted generations and generations and made monumental sacrifices to protect the Hindus and suddenly they are booted out and are not needed anymore.

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#22 [Permalink] Posted on 26th September 2019 17:04

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 https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/rss-can-prepare-an-army-within-3-days-mohan-bhagwat/articleshow/62877231.cms

He has been saying this nonsense for years!

Quote:
Sangh will prepare military personnel within three days which the Army would do in 6-7 months. This is our capability. Swayamsewak will be ready to take on the front if the country faces such a situation and Constitution permits to do so.


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#23 [Permalink] Posted on 27th September 2019 10:48
It is indeed nonsense...

But the more wise people in India should be worried. The extremist groups, once they taste power (and the money which comes with it) , it is hard for them to ‘let go’.

Ideological workers are few, mostly they are joined by criminals and anti-social elements who want power, money and along with it the satisfaction that they are doing it for God or for the nation. They use ‘high ideals’ as an excuse to hide their criminal intent.

Ultimately and almost invariably they start challenging the ‘state authority’,after sometime, and even the people start coming to them for help instead of law enforcers. A common man always want to be under the umbrella of ‘the most powerful’...

Here comes the erosion of the state, either the state succumbs to them or try to establish its authority over them. The state,then, face lockdowns, strikes and even armed resistance and the society is plunged into anarchy.

That is what history tells us and that is what we saw in Karachi and the tribal areas of Pakistan.

Unfortunately nobody learns from history :(
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#24 [Permalink] Posted on 27th September 2019 11:40

ALIF wrote:
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:P

Just imagine a Hindu Banya against a Pushtun/Afghani it it ever does come to civilian engagement between India and Pakistan.

:lol

America tried hard to get India to commit its Army in Afghanistan but India knew that Banyas will come home in body bags and that's when the American relationship with India which Obama tried hard to cultivate stagnated.


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#25 [Permalink] Posted on 27th September 2019 21:52
India really needs a non political muslim organisation consisting of ulama, business men and professional from all major groups of Indian muslims. Something like AIMPLB but with some teeth and a lot money.
Indian muslims need strong lobbying capability do that I doesn't really matter who is in power. Trying to seek electoral victory with 10% scattered votes can never be feasible.
But it's too much to ask in a society so divided into sectarianism.
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#26 [Permalink] Posted on 29th September 2019 12:35
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#27 [Permalink] Posted on 29th September 2019 12:49
ibnAbrar wrote:
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All Muslims need non political (non democratic) activist/social reformer/ educationist type of organizations in order to educate and engage the masses. Muslims don't need politicians. Muslims need leaders and activists.
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#28 [Permalink] Posted on 29th September 2019 15:27

sipraomer wrote:
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If that was the solution then Tableeghi Jamaat would have been a successful Jamaat (in terms of Islamic implementation), the fact is that after 70+ years, they are split into two groups.
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#29 [Permalink] Posted on 29th September 2019 16:36
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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Every jamaat will split in groups overtime as the juniors of an organization take everything they have got for granted. They don't have the amount of zeal their seniors have because their seniors have sacrificed their sweat and blood in it. It is a natural process.

In any movement problems start occurring when essence is lost to rituals.

The thing is that real men and women must keep moving forward and must advance the cause of Islam in one form or the other. They must create new institutions and must explore new possibilities.

Deobandis are not end of the world
Tablighis are not end of the world
Taliban are not end of the world
Muftisays.com is not end of the world
Mr.Khan is not end of the world
and sipraomer is certainly not end of the world

Real thing is the essence, the spirit.

As long as the correct ideology is alive in the hearts, people will always try to do something to achieve their objective. They will gather resources. They will search for their leader. They will learn skills. They will create organizations. They will raise funds. They will mobilize their resources and forces. However, their ideology must be correct and must be kept alive. If their strategy fails, they will adopt a new one, a better one. They will improve and they will take benefit of the chances Allah gives them.

Ideologies create restlessness in people until they accomplish the objectives proposed in those ideologies. This restlessness is the key to keep them motivated. Either they accomplish it in their lifetime. Or else they die trying. This is what advances their civilization to betterment or to destruction depending upon the correctness and wrongness of those ideologies.

First is the mindset and rest of the things follow suit.
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#30 [Permalink] Posted on 1st October 2019 04:52
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Tablighi jamaat has had a very narrow approach and has always been completely apolitical. I am talking about an organisation that doesn't take part in electoral politics directly but has muscles to swing execution. Is vocal about politics. Ready to switch sides if need be. May be a fusion of Tablighi jamaat and Jamaat-e-Islami but no direct involvement in elections
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