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Mufti-e-Azam Pakistan Mufti Rafi Usmani (HA) on being Deobandi!

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#376 [Permalink] Posted on 1st February 2019 09:23
Maripat wrote:
I am convinced that there is a Deoband school of thought and out of the Revival-of-the-Islamic-Spirit movements is the closest to the truth in last 150 years.

I also testify that to the best of my knowledge this not a new twist, innovation or development in theology but merely a renewal in the sense of what our beloved Prophet SAW said about revival every hundred years of the Deen he brought.


Then what about this person? Was he a Deobandi or not?
www.muftisays.com/forums/27-sharing-portal/12376-muftieaz...
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#377 [Permalink] Posted on 1st February 2019 09:25
Muadh wrote:
The simplest analogy is due to great achievements of graduate of Aligarh Muslim university every single Muslim starts labelling themselves as “Alig” and if you question the label “Alig” people start asking questions:

Do you not see the achievements of Aligarh Muslim university?
Do you not recognise the achievements of graduates of Aligarh Muslim university?
Do you deny that such a university exists?
No brother, we are questioning the usage of the label “Alig” by laymen because it is not sanctioned by the university.

So in easier terms, there is not such identity distinct and separate called “Deobandi” in Islam as clearly explained and articulated by Mufti Rafi Usmani (HA).

Using the same logic, the children, grand children etc would all be called Aligh's right?
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#378 [Permalink] Posted on 1st February 2019 12:40

abu mohammed wrote:
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Forget going that far back...

Maulana Mamlook Ali (RA) [1789-1851]: Teacher of Maulana Qasim Nanotwi (RA) who founed DU Deoband in 1866 passed away 15 years before his student even founded DU Deoband.

He CANNOT be "Deobandi" because it did not even exist in his lifetime.

Allamah Qasim Nanotwi (RA) and Mufti Rasheed Ahmed Gangohi (RA) were both his illustrious students and both repeatedly spoke and wrote about the qualities of their teacher. Both also were on the path of their teacher.

Both never claimed to be “Deobandi” in their lifetime just like their teacher did not (and could not have).

Shah Abdul Aziz (RA) [1745 - 1823]: The great Muhadith, Faqeeh, Hanafi Scholar of extraordinary repute and calibre who passed away 43 years before DU Deoband thus he also could not have been a "Deobandi".

Hazrat (RA) issued an extra ordinary rebuke to the bigoted, sectarian Habafees of his time (as follows):

www.central-mosque.com/index.php/Acts-of-Worship/hanafi-a...

The Salah of a Hanafi is perfectly valid behind a Shaf’ae, Maliki or Hanbali. It is because principally there is no division between the four (4) Madhabs and this injunction (of praying behind each other) is clearly elucidated in books of Ahadeeth and Fiqh. However, in our times some Ulama from Transoxiana have spoken (against this following) due to their lack of knowledge and bigotry. Their talk is worthy of refutation and it is not acceptable AT ALL and it is their Ijtehaad. In Makkah Mukarramah (today) this method of following each other is established that these (followers) pray behind each other. If this was not the injunction then what would be the difference between followers of Madhabs of Ahlus-Sunnah and heretical sects? Ahlus-Sunnah and those of knowledge amongst the Fuqaha regard that Haqq (truth) is in all four (4) Madhabs and this principle should be studied in authentic books so contentment of the heart is reached (on the issue) [Fataw-e-Azizi].

Imagine if Hazrat (RA) was alive today and found that people have created an identity for themselves which came 43 years after he had passed away!

Question:

These were great Ulama of Ahlus-Sunnah Wal-Jamaah.

The questions then become:

  1. What made Allamah Qasim Nanotwi (RA) a “Muslim” before 1866 but “Deobandi” after 1866, in which way did his Aqaid change after 1866.
  2. Give some evidence as to where Allamah Qasim Nanotwi (RA) called himself a "Deobandi"? He founded the DU so did he set the guidelines of being "Deobandi"? Did he not set the rules of those studying and graduating from DU Deoband? WHERE and WHEN did he say that laymen can become "Deobandees"?
  3. If you say that his Aqaid did not change in anyway and remained as it was (of his teacher) then the question remains:

What is a Deobandi?

Maulana Ashraf Ali Thanwi (RA):

Please produce a statement where he tells laymen to address themselves as “Deobandi”?

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#379 [Permalink] Posted on 1st February 2019 15:55
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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We choose the term Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamaat to distinguish ourselves from Shia.
We choose the term Hanafi to define which madhab among Ahlus SUnnah Wal jamaat we follow.
We choose the term Deobandi Hanafi to distinguish ourselves and make everyone clear that we aren't Barelvi.

It's nothing to do with what Allah has chosen for us. It's about making things easy for us to understand.
We are interested in the concept of Deoband regardless of what it really means.

Sorry! But this is not a crime and we shouldn't be punished for it.
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#380 [Permalink] Posted on 1st February 2019 16:42

sipraomer wrote:
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I am Sorry to respond to you the 3rd time with the same response. 

Nobody is saying that it is a crime. I am saying that exact opposite of what you are understanding, I said “You live in a democracy so you can choose to call yourself whatever you wish to call yourself ABOVE and BEYOND what Allah Ta’ala has chosen for you”

"Deobandi Hanafi" so that is a new definition separate and distinct from "Deobandi Maliki"? So we already have:

  1. Deobandi
  2. Deobandi Hanafi
  3. Deobandi Shaf’ae
  4. Deobandi Hanbali
  5. Deobandi Maliki

I suppose that we already know that Deobandu Hayati vs Deobandi Mamati already exist so from your statement we now get

  1. Deobandi Hayati
  2. Deobandi Mamati
  3. Deobandi Hanafi Hayati
  4. Deobandi Hanafi Mamati
  5. Deobandi Shaf’ae Hayati
  6. Deobandi Shaf’ae Mamati
  7. Deobandi Hanbali Hayati
  8. Deobandi Hanbali Mamati
  9. Deobandi Maliki Hayati
  10. Deobandi Maliki Mamati

None of others IDs which you have associated yourself with even exist but as I am repeating for the 4th time, you have the democratic right to call yourself whatever you wish to call yourself.

So you are free to call yourself whatever you wish and there is no “crime”.

There are people who spend thousands to travel to Scotland and look for Loch Ness Monster:

www.lochnesssightings.com/

There is even a village in Finland where apparently Santa Claus lives:

santaclausvillage.info/

Both equally do not exist (in reality) but again its people’s democratic right to believe in and spend their money as they wish, no crime whatsoever.

No crime whatsoever, brother.

No crime.

Plenty of people beleive in things which actually do not exist, no problems.

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#381 [Permalink] Posted on 1st February 2019 17:07
Hahahhaa! You are a very funny guy.

Quote:
you can choose to call yourself whatever you wish to call yourself ABOVE and BEYOND what Allah Ta’ala has chosen for you


Sorry to answer you the second time the same thing.

It's not about what Allah Ta'ala has chosen for us to be called. We are happy what Allah has chosen for us. Our choice is not contradictory to what Allah has chosen for us. (Nawudhubillah). Allah has chosen the label Muslim for us and chosen Islam as deen for us.

The problem is that there are banaspati Muslims and Real Muslims. All of them call themselves Muslims. So here we need a term to distinguish our selves from banaspati Muslims.

As far as Mamati and Hayati problem is concerned. Mamati is a later development. We are old Deobandis and not the new ones who have introduced innovations in the teachings of akabir.

Lastly, there are not very many people who know even the names of these concepts so why should xyz bother that whether we choose this label or not. This is our private label. When we introduce ourselves to the world we say we are Muslims. If someone bothers to ask more then Sunni Muslims. If someone bothers to ask more than Hanafi Muslims. The vast majority is satisfied with that.

Then Brother X comes and says lets celebrate Eid Milad un Nabi. Then the problem is how to answer that brother x. If we say that we don't celebrate then he further asks "What kind of Hanafi are you?". Then we are obliged to say that it is not sunnah according to the traditional teachings of Islam. Brother x replies that but our akabireen have said that it is indeed sunnah and a sign of ishq e rasool too and who doesn't celebrate it then it means he is a gustakh.

Then we are forced to identify ourselves further that look we follow these Hanafi ulema who have graduated from this D darul uloom. They have written in their fatawah with references to the akabireen of 13 or so centuries that milad is biddah. At the end he curses us and leaves us alone.

Now the problem is that not everybody is an excellent debater like you with 7 billion hours of time and with 7 trillion references for each and every point and 70 zillion megawatts of energy to debate Brother X to death. Simply call us lazy, ignoramus or stupid. But it is easy for us to cut the long story short and simply call ourselves Deobandi without caring of the fact that what this term really means or for whom it is suited. We just want to save our time and simply call ourselves Deobandi so that Brother X doesn't bother us again.
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#382 [Permalink] Posted on 1st February 2019 17:20

sipraomer wrote:
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  1. You are original and the older group i.e. “Deobandees”, all the back from 1866.
  2. Mamati Deobandees are not as old as 1866.

It is Makrooh-e-Tahreemi to pray behind the splinter (newer innovated Deobandees).

In order to distinguish yourself from the splinter group you are actually “Hayati Deobandi Hanafi” because they are also “Deobandi Hanafi”, it is all clear.

Is Professor Maripati Saheb:

  1. Hayati Deobandi Hanafi
  2. Mamati Deobandi Hanafi

In other words, is his Islam more recent OR goes all the way back in history to 1866?

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#383 [Permalink] Posted on 1st February 2019 17:28
Unity in Ummah will not come by adopting or leaving terminologies. Sorry to say but it is a very painful reality. Only through khilafah.
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#384 [Permalink] Posted on 1st February 2019 17:33

sipraomer wrote:
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But you are the original group (i.e. Hayati Deobandees) with interrupted history all the back to 1866 so I am sure that you are working on the problem and we wish you the best of the luck. 👍

I suppose it must not be good to have your interrupted history since 1866 interrupted by the “Mamati Deobandees” the FAKE ones…so here is our response to them...👎


 
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#385 [Permalink] Posted on 1st February 2019 17:40

Refutation of "Mamati Deobandees" by the original "Hayati Deobandees"

The original “Hayati Deobandees” with uninterrupted history all the way to 1866 categorically and clearly refute the imposters and newly innovated “Mamati Deobandees” with saying from the original “Deobandees” :

ia800607.us.archive.org/22/items/AhnafMedia_Hayat_un_Nabi...


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#386 [Permalink] Posted on 2nd February 2019 02:14
@Muadh Khan:

Quote:
I said “You live in a democracy so you can choose to call yourself whatever you wish to call yourself ABOVE and BEYOND what Allah Ta’ala has chosen for you”

Why this rule is applied to deobandi only....?
Why other new titles ''hanafi, shafi'i maliki, hambali, ashari, maturudi, athari aren't new titles which Allah swt didnot choose for you....?

''man ahdasa fi deenina haza ma laisa minhu fa huwa radd''...

Why this hadith doesn't apply to above new titles unknown prior to 4th century...?

Why is it not bidah...?



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#387 [Permalink] Posted on 2nd February 2019 03:13
abu mohammed wrote:
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I do not know ya akhi. But I am one.

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#388 [Permalink] Posted on 2nd February 2019 04:00
100
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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Quote:
Forget going that far back...

Maulana Mamlook Ali (RA) [1789-1851]: Teacher of Maulana Qasim Nanotwi (RA) who founed DU Deoband in 1866 passed away 15 years before his student even founded DU Deoband.

He CANNOT be "Deobandi" because it did not even exist in his lifetime.

As I understand Deoband is the current interpretation, correct interpretation of Islam. I am taking these words from Mufti Taqi Usmani Sahab DB's speech in Deoband itself.

The assumption behind your question is that me or any other Deobandis have either designed a new interpretation or or following such a designed interpretation. I absolve myself of all such falsehood.

This leaves out the question as to at what point of time the epithet Deobandi becomes legitimate to apply. I suppose this question too can be decided but I do not feel any responsibility to do so. I am Deobandi because I neither had the inclination nor to the capability to decide what is Islam. So I did look around. I smelt, I felt and I observed the various models in the Market and I was satisfied with the Deoband version. I found it to be the closest to the truth as felt by my own heart.

And I suppose I have said these things countless times earlier also.

And after deciding that Deoband was closest to the truth I have never regretted it. And as far as my current feelings go I doubt that I shall ever regret it.

I did not regret it when I heard the Barelwi abuses on our Elders, Ulama, Jama-at and the common people.

I did not regret it when Islamic Awakening gangs hurled abuses, insults and calumny on our Elders, Ulama, Jama-at and the common people.

But I do regret when my own brothers lose confidence in faces of Salafi or Barelwi abuses. No, no I do not regret my choice of Deoband. I regret the lack of confidence in my brothers and sisters, more true for brothers than sisters, in face of onslaught by the detractors.

And I do regret to inform that this twist and turn and getting knotted by the terminology is a result of that very lack of confidence.

Ghulami se hai badtar beyaqini. Allama Iqbal.
Lack of confidence is worse than slavery.

We threw up the slavery of the British but are unsettled by the Salafi and Barelwi criticism. Strange.

be strong for Allah SWT prefers that kind of believers.

Quote:
Allamah Qasim Nanotwi (RA) and Mufti Rasheed Ahmed Gangohi (RA) were both his illustrious students and both repeatedly spoke and wrote about the qualities of their teacher. Both also were on the path of their teacher.

Both never claimed to be “Deobandi” in their lifetime just like their teacher did not (and could not have).


To widen the perspective a little bit this was the group who fought the British in the battlefield and realized that they do not have the means to take on the British. Hence they gave up the physical battle and settled down to the task of saving the Deen. The end product is the Deoband interpretation and revival of Islam and that is what I follow.

I am not at all worried about at what precise milli, micro, nano, pico, femto, or atto second the adjective Deobandi becomes applicable. I urge Khan Sahab also not to worry about it. It is not worth it.

Quote:

Shah Abdul Aziz (RA) [1745 - 1823]: The great Muhadith, Faqeeh, Hanafi Scholar of extraordinary repute and calibre who passed away 43 years before DU Deoband thus he also could not have been a "Deobandi".

Hazrat (RA) issued an extra ordinary rebuke to the bigoted, sectarian Habafees of his time (as follows):

www.central-mosque.com/index.php/Acts-of-Worship/hanafi-a...

I happen to be an Alig and with a sad heart I have to admit that I do not get impressed with name dropping Khan Sahab.
Quote:
The Salah of a Hanafi is perfectly valid behind a Shaf’ae, Maliki or Hanbali. It is because principally there is no division between the four (4) Madhabs and this injunction (of praying behind each other) is clearly elucidated in books of Ahadeeth and Fiqh. However, in our times some Ulama from Transoxiana have spoken (against this following) due to their lack of knowledge and bigotry. Their talk is worthy of refutation and it is not acceptable AT ALL and it is their Ijtehaad. In Makkah Mukarramah (today) this method of following each other is established that these (followers) pray behind each other. If this was not the injunction then what would be the difference between followers of Madhabs of Ahlus-Sunnah and heretical sects? Ahlus-Sunnah and those of knowledge amongst the Fuqaha regard that Haqq (truth) is in all four (4) Madhabs and this principle should be studied in authentic books so contentment of the heart is reached (on the issue) [Fataw-e-Azizi].

It would be disrespectful to yawn so I'll not do that. When I decided to do Taqleed then these historical episodes lost meaning for me. I leave all these things to Ulama as soon as these become too intricate to track for me. I suggest that you too adopt the same attitude.

The only irritation after that will come from the Salafis and Barelwis. If the Shia do not bother you then why should the Barelwis should waste your time? Let me tell you from Taqiyyah-Tabarrah-Mutah-Imamat to Hazir-Nazir-Ilm-e-Ghaib-Noor-Mukhtar is not even a quantitative improvement, let alone qualitative. In fact the shia do the Tabarrah in their privacy while the Barelwis hurl abuses sitting on the dais. And the Salafis evolution I saw in Yasir Qadhi. From Deobandi background to Salafi an back to effectively Deobandi that is what it is. why get distracted by those who are just still evolving in darwin's paradigm and not reached a stage of peace, Islam?

This still leaves out the sundry irritants. It is a good idea to fight them. But if you decide to do that then you should not be complaining for you decrease your Sawab by doing that.
Quote:
Imagine if Hazrat (RA) was alive today and found that people have created an identity for themselves which came 43 years after he had passed away!
Question:

These were great Ulama of Ahlus-Sunnah Wal-Jamaah.

The questions then become:

What made Allamah Qasim Nanotwi (RA) a “Muslim” before 1866 but “Deobandi” after 1866, in which way did his Aqaid change after 1866.

I think I have answered this question. And coming to think of it even the Kuffar know the answer when they ask whether the Pope is Catholic. Just relax.

Quote:
Give some evidence as to where Allamah Qasim Nanotwi (RA) called himself a "Deobandi"? He founded the DU so did he set the guidelines of being "Deobandi"? Did he not set the rules of those studying and graduating from DU Deoband? WHERE and WHEN did he say that laymen can become "Deobandees"?
If you say that his Aqaid did not change in anyway and remained as it was (of his teacher) then the question remains:

What is a Deobandi?

And what is Catholicism and who is Pope. I hope you realize that by now it is all semantics that is left.

Quote:
Maulana Ashraf Ali Thanwi (RA):

Please produce a statement where he tells laymen to address themselves as “Deobandi”?

I heard it in the Majlis of my Shaikh. Then I am invoking Taqleed. Please hang me not - I have a family.
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#389 [Permalink] Posted on 2nd February 2019 07:13
@Muadh Khan
@Abu Muhammed

Now this issue has other aspects as well.

1: What Allah swt chooses for us should be the best choice and going against this choice should be considered as dishonouring or rejecting the choice of Allah swt. And what we choose against the choice of Allah swt should be considered as kufr.

2: Illat of disliking the label ''deobandi'' is its newness, it means every new title or label which scriptures don't corroborate, is disliked.
Therefore, all the labels or titles or names of different groups including 4 madhab are wrong except Hizbullah (Quran), Ahlequran (Ibn Majah) ,jamat ul muslimeen (Bukhari) ...?

3: If you think that you are Muslim ONLY, then which Muslim... Hayati or Mamati...?
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#390 [Permalink] Posted on 2nd February 2019 09:21
We all know full well that we all follow the same Ulama of Darul Uloom Deoband, before and after it was created, i.e. the same Manhaj.

The real issue here is accepting that the terminology is only to differentiate between others within the same community.

This has been made very clear many times.

Today it seems if someone isn't a Deobandi, he is not on Haq!

We are creating a delusional mindset.

The term used in context can be fine within your confines. You step out in the real world where you will find Muslim's who have never heard the word Deoband in their life but are Muslim's, are they not on Haq?

Most people who are Deobandi today are only Deobandi because their parents and grandparents were, or they were brought up going to a Deobandi Madrasa.

No one here is a Deobandi because they are graduates of Darul Uloom Deoband!

All of us here are inclined towards the teaching because we are intellectual enough to see whose going wrong where.

But when we become big headed and bigoted and show pride in a name, we are surely walking into the path of misguidance. Why? Because we will see everyone else who is not a Deobandi as someone who is not on complete Haq!

Then we have all the divisions within Deobandi Masjid's, these are not difference of opinions, but in some cases it is arrogance.

We will have two Deobandi Masjid's next door to each other and one will follow Sunnah and would prefer to be a minority whilst the other will go against the Sunnah and prefer to follow the majority!

Then which of the two are on Haq?

This whole debate is to simply point out that there should be unity, not pride, acceptance, not arrogance, Islam, not sectarianism!

We are Muslim's, the Barelwi, Salafi etc are our brothers and sisters too.

If we all went back to our roots and dropped the bigotry, went back to the Khairul Quroon, we can lift or heads and say, "We are on Haq"

Instead we are just fighting because we can't understand where we are going downhill!

We are fighting because we can't understand very basic Urdu (because that's what the topic is based on) and we can't understand plain English!

It's been said many times, call yourself what you like - but no! You want to close the chapter on arrogance and pride with a label that ONLY came into practice to differentiate from the Barelwi after the 1800's

Yes we are Deobandi but not like our elders, we are wannabes. But will we reach their status? No! Why? Because we don't understand what it means to be on the correct path without a label.
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