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#31 [Permalink] Posted on 7th January 2019 17:33
bint e aisha wrote:
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السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته

Sounds a bit like imran Khan.
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#32 [Permalink] Posted on 7th January 2019 18:02
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lol! Did he miss Allama Iqbal's verses about democracy? Wasn't there anyone to translate those verses?

Jamhoriat woh tarz e hakumat hai keh jiss mein
Bandon ko gina karte hain tola nahin karte

Democracy is a system of government where voters are counted instead of calculating their ability to differentiate between right and wrong.
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#33 [Permalink] Posted on 7th January 2019 18:03
bint e aisha wrote:
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Then Pakistan means democracy and not La ilaha illallah. Whether you admit it or not but people's emotions were played with.
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#34 [Permalink] Posted on 7th January 2019 18:07
Same thing can be said about socialism that Muslims are the more socialist people as they care for the poor and the needy and thus they should struggle for socialism based on the principles of Quran and Sunnah. (Noudhubillah min zalik)

Oh Allah protect us from mental as well as physical slavery of others. Make us slaves of You only. Ameen.
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#35 [Permalink] Posted on 8th January 2019 04:21
sipraomer wrote:
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I don't disagree wyith that. Yes, the powers that be had other ideas about what to do with a separate homeland for Muslims, but at least our ulema and even Mr. Jinnah were sincere in their intentions of creating a state where Muslims could practice Islam more freely. So for us, that would count as the basis of founding the country. It's a different matter that perhaps Mr. Jinnah and our ulema were taken for a ride by the real powers whose motives were different and in the end they were more in a position of power to enforce their own vision upon Pakistan compared to the ulema.
What we should be trying to do is revert Pakistan back to the vision of those ulema.
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#36 [Permalink] Posted on 8th January 2019 07:01
fod1083 wrote:
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Quote:
What we should be trying to do is revert Pakistan back to the vision of those ulema.


And how do you propose we should do that?
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#37 [Permalink] Posted on 8th January 2019 09:09
sipraomer wrote:
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We should sign a petition.
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#38 [Permalink] Posted on 8th January 2019 09:52
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lol
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#39 [Permalink] Posted on 8th January 2019 10:20

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You have some serious and gaping holes in your knowledge of history and what happened with Pakistan which is leading you to fallacies about the past.

Here, I am not discussing the merits or demerits of creation of Pakistan but some facts.

Let’s discuss Ulama first. I am assuming that you are referring to Deobandi Ulama and in that case overwhelming majority of these Ulama were AGAINST the creation of Pakistan (and still are) so there were no Ulama to consult. Hazrat (Maulana) Shabbir Ahmed Usmani (RA) was a minority of a few and really a minority, overwhelming majority and powerhouses Deobandi and Tableeghi Ulama were not only against but hostile to Pakistan and resisted migration to Pakistan. It is one of the main reasons why Muslims resisted and campaigned against Pakistan. Hazrat (Maulana) Ashraf Ali Thanwi (RA) would have been PRO-PAKISTAN but he (RA) passed away a long time before Pakistan. If he was alive, that would have counterbalanced and provided a lot of Ulama to be Pro-Pakistan. Hazrat (Maulana) Ashraf Ali Thanwi (RA) was very Pro-Khilafah and Anti-Democracy. Overwhelming majority of (Deobandi) Ulama were also “Against Muhammad Ali Jinnah” for obvious reasons, in the streets of India Ulama backed rallies used to openly call him “Kaafir-e-Azam” as opposed to “Quaid-e-Azam”. These are the facts about majority of Ulama, I challenge you to REFUTE ME and not by posting support of Maulana  X or Maulana Y for Pakistan but I am openly claiming that majority of Deobandi Ulama of Deoband, Saharunpur and Delhi were AGAINST Pakistan.

Once again, I am not discussing the merits or demerits of creation of Pakistan but some facts.

Then, Pakistan was never meant to be a COUNTRY, it was meant to be an INDEPENDENT STATE (of India) until 1945. When Muhammad Ali Jinnah realised late in 1945 that Hindus would not give power share to Muslims, it changed and became a demand for an INDEPENDENT COUNTRY because they realised that Hindus will never share power with Muslims. In this desperate situation, the Hindus and the British both colluded with each India the maximum strategic advantage (Kashmir, Gordaspur etc) and deliberately deny Pakistan areas of strategic, economic importance.  Muhammad Ali Jinnah knew it but by this time his health was failing and British were desperate so HE HAD TO accept the best he could although it was not ideal. THEN after independence, Muhammad Ali Jinnah ordered the invasion of Kashmir it was the General Grassey (British Army) who refused orders. This is the time when the Ulama and (particularly) Jamaat-e-Islami rose up in Jihad and forcefully took away parts of Kashmir (from India) which are now called Azad Kashmir. General Akhtar Abdur-Rahman (Afghan Jihad) was a young Captain who disobeyed direct orders from his CnC General Grassey and fired at Indian posts with the ONLY WORKING TANK Pakistan had to support the Jihad.

Muhammad Ali Jinnah was in a desperate situation in a new country with ZERO money in the treasure and his CnC General Grassey was disobeying direct orders and during this whole time his T.B was at the last stages and could not be treated.

What Khilafah and what constitution? Domestically he had no money, millions of refugees and on foreign affairs he had a war which his own war refused to fight!

It’s a miracle, Pakistan survived and THERE WAS NO HOPE that it would survive and it was meant NOT TO SURVIVE!

It was predicted by British and Indians intellectuals that Pakistan would fall back into India within a decade or less, they were certain of it!

Ulama COULD NOT have gained independence from the British as they had no plan and no way to execute even if they wanted to. During the past 60 years, what practical role have the Ulama played in Paksitan, name me 5 ACHIEVEMNTS?

Our Darul-ulooms and Maktabs don’t run professionally how do you expect Khilafah to run? The least the Ulama could have done is prepare people for Khilafah, 99% of the population of Pakistan knows nothing about Khilafah, they attend Masajid, listen to Jumuah Bayans every week how many are about Khilafah? Do they Ulama say and educated the masses that Pakistan is MEANT to be a KHILAFAH? If the Ulama want Pakistan to be KHILAFAH why do they participate in Politics? It is STUPID! Majority of Ulama (even Mufti Taqi Usmani and Mufti Rafi Usmani) back political parties and back democracy… HOW WILL THE COMMON PEOPLE OF PAKISTAN KNOW ANY BETTER???

Ulama KNEW their limitations and that is why they supported a clean shaven man called Muhammad Ali Jinnah. He was a Secular person who slowly came to the Deen in the last 10-15 years of his life while fighting a battle for independence with the British. What do you expect? A person to go from not knowing basic Arabic words (of Bismillah) to a scholar in Khilafah in this time while fighting for independence and suffering from Tuberculosis?

Again, I am just common sense facts and if you want to refute the facts, refute the facts…




 
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#40 [Permalink] Posted on 8th January 2019 12:51
sipraomer wrote:
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In the long run, dawah.

For a quicker resolution, armed revolution. But that is being optimistic to the point of delusion.
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#41 [Permalink] Posted on 8th January 2019 14:16
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#42 [Permalink] Posted on 8th January 2019 15:49
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Nothing new for me Peer Sahab. Already know what you have shared. Why should I refute you. No need. Relax.

By the way I have heard more than once from your's and mine beloved Dr.Israr RH that "Quaid e Azam Islam ki dafli bajate the".

"Quaid e Azam used to play duff of Islam".

May Allah have mercy upon all the dead Muslims and living as well. Well from the last 60 years university graduates have been ruling and running this country. What have they achieved?

So basically Muslims as a whole have achieved nothing substantial since the last 300 years. It is not limited to madrassah people, university graduates have also done nothing. I will shed light on this issue in detail later on. I will also elaborate on the reasons behind failure and also present some solutions.
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#43 [Permalink] Posted on 8th January 2019 16:26

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Agreed but try to understand ground realities.

Muhammad Ali Jinnah (RA) was like a new Muslim, he was an Isamili Shia with no Islamic education and upbringing, and he changed much later in his adult life.

By this time, he is fighting the British and suffering from Tuberculosis, HOW in the world do you realistically expect a person in that situation to become knowledgeable in Khilafah WHEN Ulama who have spent years in the Darul-ulooms are not aware of the realities (according to you).

Isn’t it a bit unfair for you to expect someone in Muhammad Ali Jinnah (RA)’s position to know the details when professionals (with years of formal study) are devoid of that understand.

All of this according to your view and not mine.

As I keep saying to you, don’t have double standards. Don’t judge Muhammad Ali Jinnah (RA) with the same standard as yourself but as someone who is a new Muslim (in old age) busy and suffering with a terminal illness.

Lastly, Muhammad Ali Jinnah (RA) is gone and buried. Why don’t you put the blame on the doorsteps of “Ulama” who have not only not done anything about this BUT don’t even mention it?

How is this the fault of Muhammad Ali Jinnah (RA) or NATO or CIA or Illuminati?


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#44 [Permalink] Posted on 8th January 2019 16:57
Not to mention if anyone was more in a position of agitating the young people into action against the powers that be, it was the ulema, what with there influence over the madressa students. And if that was the case then, now their influence has increased significantly since then.
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#45 [Permalink] Posted on 8th January 2019 17:50
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No peer sahab actually YOU are responsible. lol.

It was madrassah people who established the first Islamic government in Khorasan after many decades of humiliation and confusion.

Subcontinent is not the place to bring a revolution. Here there is no such thing like one nation. Revolutions demand a single nation who have some set rules. Revolutions don't happen in a Kicharhi. History of the subcontinent is testament to that. Here brilliant thinkers and planners have always born. However, this is not the land of successful revolutionaries. Shaykh ul Hind Rh tried his best but didn't succeed. Here revolution can be imported from outside but never will it succeed from the inside.

Khorasan (Afghanistan) is the place and ulema are doing their best. I salute to ulema and mujahideen. They have mistakes like other humans. They have shortcomings like others. However, I will never lose hope in them. There are still gems in them and those few will outnumber Insha Allah the odds. As the time passes people are being divided into two groups. One of Haq and the other of Batil. I am not hopeless and am not pessimistic.

No agitation, no civil war, nothing else. Seriously, no BS will solve our problems. Even if you stand upside down, even then things will not change. The Prophet SAWS has already told us the solution. Our worldly analysis isn't worth a penny if it does not lead to that solution.
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