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#211 [Permalink] Posted on 9th January 2019 05:02
Are Iqbal's erroneous ways really a big secret? I thought it was openly known about his faults but that he later repented and was given quite the foresight regarding Islam by Allah? I know many ulema hold him in high regard and are satisfied in believing that he had changed in his later years.

Regarding IK's praise for Attaturk, I wasn't just referring to this particular instance. He has praised him in the past too. Infact, I'd say his whole party is rather partial to Attaturk's vision for Turkey.
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#212 [Permalink] Posted on 9th January 2019 05:13
sipraomer wrote:
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Even if the whole world says Iqbal was wrong here and there,I would still love him because his love for the prophet pbuh was so obvious and spontaneous....

As one intellectual puts it : “Iqbal was more influenced by the greatest human being (pbuh) ever born than he was influenced by the greatest religion,islam”

I believe Muad khan likes him as much as we all do.Who wouldn’t like Iqbal? His point is different.Those who are raised in a particular atmosphere develop a particular mindset and one can’t challenge their established norms when one is on a diplomatic mission to their homelands.That is perfectly understandable.
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#213 [Permalink] Posted on 9th January 2019 06:06
ALIF wrote:
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On another note,we all rightly hate Ata Turk for him being secular and for his crime of abolishing khilafat,but was Ottoman truly ‘khilafat’ or just another kingdom legitimising itself by adding the title of khalifa to its name (Just like Saudi,s use the title of Khadim ul haramain)? and more importantly if that same old arrangement in the name of khilafat was sustainable anymore after Turkish defeat in ww1,lose of its empire in Europe and also in the Middle East ?

Just like Soviet Union had to be dismantled to save RUSSIA, was it not right for ‘young Turks’ to let go of the rest of the empire to save turkey ? Please note,the empire had already gone out of their hands for all the practical purposes,it was only a matter of accepting the bitter reality...

That Ata Turk became over reactionary and turned upon religion that makes him truely detestable,should not make us over look his great services in defence of Turkish mainland,which is a fact...
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#214 [Permalink] Posted on 9th January 2019 07:47
ALIF wrote:
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Ata Turk according to some ulema was a Jew. Ottomon Empire was a kingdom (monrachy not khilafa) which was the last symbol to unite Muslims under one flag. Yes it was weak and not sustainable due to nepotism which is one of the side effects of monarchy. Atat Turk's main crime was enforcing secularism and murdering ulema, chainging Turkish language script from Arabic to roman.

I have heard my self the speech of Maulana Syed Suleman Nadvi some years ago in which he clearly said that Mustafa Kamal was a Jew.
Here another link www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5va-UFVAAk

When Ata Turk recited Shema Yisrael

Mustafa Kemal killed all the Turkish ulema

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#215 [Permalink] Posted on 9th January 2019 08:34
sipraomer wrote:
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I am not defending him...

May be I dislike him as much as you do. We are only trying to understand Turkish perspective about him...and that we should learn to see things as they are rather than as we wish them to be...
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#216 [Permalink] Posted on 9th January 2019 09:40
ALIF wrote:
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I didn't say that you are defending him. Was just giving my opinion that why he should be hated more despite of his service for defense of Turkey.

Let me give you a hint. Why would US invade Pakistan if Pakistani government is ready to do her bidding. Similarly, why would Britain and Europe bother to invade Turkey when Ata Turk was doing all things they wanted already? So I don't buy this defense service of his. He damaged Turkish nation more than he served her.

Common people are gullible no matter which country they belong to. They believe what they are fed.
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#217 [Permalink] Posted on 9th January 2019 09:42
bint e aisha wrote:
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But did he practice quran and sunnah in his daily life?
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#218 [Permalink] Posted on 9th January 2019 09:53
sipraomer wrote:
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Read about him,please !

Those who won the war wanted to do the same,or more,to Turkey that they did to Germans...

But fine,we both seem to agree on the basic issue,except that I keep forgetting what was the basic issue to begin with, the topics change so fast....
:)
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#219 [Permalink] Posted on 9th January 2019 10:02

bint e aisha wrote:
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You are putting giving further credibility to my point and either deliberately or innocently not understanding what I am trying to say.

Dr Allamah Iqbal (RA) is in your psyche due to your environment and education, you have studied him (later) but the impression was set at a younger stage because he is all over the Media, education system. To such an extent that all legitimate issues are brushed under the carpet because he was a perceived “Ashiq-e-Rasool”.

This was NOT the case in his lifetime or even afterwards as there were legitimate concerns about his personality and his poetry (both). NEVERTHELESS at your request let’s put all that aside because that is not my point. My point is not Dr Allamah Iqbal (RA) ALTHOUGH if you wish to start about him let us set the record straight (in history) but let me repeat I DO NOT WANT TO…I don’t care what you believe or don’t believe…I am trying to say to look at issues from the perspective of others.

My point is that Turkish people grow up with a manic fervour for Ata-Turk and they legitimately don’t come across the material which you may have knowledge of .

Shaykh Sudais is a Qadhi (judge) and Imam of Haram…Knowledge of Imran Khan (as you have rightly alluded to previously) is rudimentary in Islam and he is a politician.

Shaykh Sudais is praising a tyrant to his FACE (or close to it)

Imran Khan is a politician who is making diplomatic remarks about (dead) Hero of a country, ABSOLUTELY they are not the same thing BUT you will keep arguing until the cows come home so carry on…


sipraomer wrote:
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We are not discussing closeminded Pakistan in 2018, we are discussing Ottoman empire! Let’s assume that Ata-Turk was a Jew, it DOES NOT mean anything because there were plenty of Jews (and still are) to this day in Turkey.

Nations look at Heroes irrespective of religion

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cecil_Chaudhry

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_Robert_Cornelius

Unless you are in Pakistan in 2018!

Ata-Turk PREVENTED Greece from taking over parts of Turkey so he is a national Hero

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Turkish_War_(1919%E2%80%931922)

In your rudimentary mind, this can be equated to General Akhtar Hussain Malik who was a Brigadier during 1965 war and performed remarkably saved parts of Pakistan from being taken over by India

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhtar_Hussain_Malik

He was a Qadiyani

In terms of military professionalism his religion plays no part

ONCE AGAIN, NOT ASKING BOTH OF YOU TO AGREE…Asking you to understand the point of view and REFUTE FACTS
Not even saying that agree or disagree, just presenting facts which MAY LEAD someone else to a different set of conclusions then you…In other words, being a Jew during Ottoman Empire was not a big deal (assuming that he actually was).

I know that in Pakistan Imran Khan can be called a “Jew” because he married Jemima…

But whatever dude...



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#220 [Permalink] Posted on 9th January 2019 13:13
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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Summ Ameen.
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#221 [Permalink] Posted on 9th January 2019 13:19
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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I don't know whether you are deliberately overlooking my points or innocently but I will just end it here cos I don't like to repeat myself. السلام علیکم
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#222 [Permalink] Posted on 9th January 2019 13:34
xs11ax wrote:
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Yep that's what I said. He was a practicing Muslim, he would pray five times regularly as well as tahajjud. He was consistent in reciting Qur'an. His poetry depicts his love for Nabi صلى الله عليه وسلم and his Ummah. He maintained his contact with the Ulama-e-kiraam and also consulted Allama Anwar Shah Kashmiri on some issues. He wrote against Qadianism and spoke in favour of jihad at a time when the British were ruling India and even Maulvis were speaking against jihad.

sipraomer wrote:
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Quote:
I am not in the position of commenting about his prose but in his poetry are many gems which can benefit us.

Although I have not read his prose much but it is as good as his poetry. Below is an excerpt from a letter which he wrote whilst travelling for Hajj.



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#223 [Permalink] Posted on 9th January 2019 13:51

bint e aisha wrote:
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I believe that Allah Ta’ala will Insha’Allah grant me entry into Jannah not because of any extraordinary cats of worship but because of exercising patience with the Ummah of Nabi (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam) to the utmost of my human ability.

  • You have an incomplete view of Dr Allamah Iqbal (RA) but let’s agree to disagree. I understand that you are a fan and power to you Sister. He (RA) has passed away so let’s not get into this tussle because I don’t want to. I said what he was not ashamed to admit or reveal in his own lifetime

THIS WAS NOT MY POINT!

My point was that just like you are a product of your environment, your background, your upbringing EXTEND THAT COURTESY AND RESPECT to others that they are also a product of their environment, their background and their upbringing. Their views are shaped by their events and the matter might not be as clear to them (as they are to you). Dr Allamah Iqbal (RA) was brought as an example to make a point. Your extraordinary and over the top REACTION is actually evidence that when emotions become charged, fair-minded discussions cannot occur.  Apply your behaviour to someone in (Turkish) shoes.

THEN you are equating the actions of a Qadhi (Judge) who is also Imam of Haram to Imran Khan and I respectfully submit that these are not the same.

  1. Ata-Turk is dead while MBS is alive
  2. Shaykh Sudais is a Scholar and Jurist while Imran Khan is a Politician with rudimentary Islamic knowledge

You are merely focussing on the ACTION while the entire context needs to be looked at. The error of judgement of a Qadhi (who also happens to the Imam of Haram) is FAR WORSE than a politician.

In 3 cases you are APPLYING YOUR JUDGEMENT to others and I am asking for you to look at the issue with the perspective of other people (if you can), if you cannot MOVE ON.

Let’s agree to disagree because you are simply unable to look at an issue from someone else’s perspective.

Turkish people (religious people included) DO NOT view Ata-Turk as a Kaafir or a Jew at all; it is YOUR & SIPRAOMER's perspective and of course both of you are entitled to your opinion.

Now tell me which points of your have been missed?

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#224 [Permalink] Posted on 9th January 2019 14:08
Ditto dude, ditto!

Quote:
My point was that just like you are a product of your environment, your background, your upbringing EXTEND THAT COURTESY AND RESPECT to others that they are also a product of their environment, their background and their upbringing. Their views are shaped by their events and the matter might not be as clear to them (as they are to you).

Ditto dude
Quote:
You are merely focussing on the ACTION while the entire context needs to be looked at.

Ditto dude
Quote:
Let’s agree to disagree because you are simply unable to look at an issue from someone else’s perspective.

Ditto dude

When it comes to your views against others, especially in the context of theories or facts - why dont you apply the same?

:)
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#225 [Permalink] Posted on 9th January 2019 14:54

09JAN2019: Ata-Turk

This conversation took place today regarding the views of the one of the Major Pakistani scholar in the world (today), he in Sunni, his Aqeedah is sound and has written much about the history of Ottomans...He is fluent in Turkish, Urdu and Arabic.

Years of experience of Turks, Turkey, local situation, extensive links and knowhow etc.

Q: Was Ata-Turk a Jew?

A: No

Q: Was Ata-Turk a Kaafir?

A: No

Q: What is his reality?

A: His actions are major and blameworthy. He was maybe motivated by money, may be motivated by power or prestige…Similar to many politicians of Pakistan who sell their religion and their land to others…

I do not have permission to reveal his name.

P.S: I have asked this question so many times to Turks over the years. I understand that Sipromer will open a thread and blame me for defending Ata-Turk, to all reasonable people I am neither defending Ata-Turk nor justifying his actions! I am merely commenting on a separate issue and trying to get to the bottom of the issue with facts.

Do as you wish with this information.

Asaaghir wrote:
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Wrong!

I am not presenting any theories.

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