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Disagreement with Ulama refusing to Pray Funeral Prayers

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#1 [Permalink] Posted on 7th June 2017 14:06

In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful.

As-salāmu ‘alaykum wa-rahmatullāhi wa-barakātuh

I kept my disagreements private. Now that the issue is out in the open and Tariq Ramadan has decided to publicly disagree with it, I see no harm in making my thoughts public…

https://www.facebook.com/official.tariqramadan/videos/1754168231264132/?hc_location=ufi

I read the following statement from our respected Scholars in Islam and I fundamentally disagree with their (political) stance.

http://www.mcb.org.uk/over-130-imams-religious-leaders-from-diverse-backgrounds-refuse-to-perform-the-funeral-prayer-for-london-attackers-in-an-unprecedented-move/

They have the right to take a political position and I have the right to disagree with it. As I understand it, these Scholars are refusing to lead the funeral prayers and urging others but they are not refusing that funeral (prayers) should take place.

I am a military veteran, an Ex-Medic and my guiding principle is the Geneva Convention. I was trained to treat an injured human and provide assistance no matter how deeply and fundamentally I disagree with their ideology or action.

I deeply, fundamentally and entirely disagree with those attacked civilians in London or those who attack innocent people anywhere in the world. There is no basis in Islam for these attacks and there is no room for such actions. Those who perpetrate these crimes should be swiftly brought to justice and punished to the (full) extent of the law. I believe in bringing them to justice, without question and without ambiguity.

Mankind has viciously disagreed and ferociously fought against each other throughout history. Aid has always been provided to the injured, regardless of ideology.

By extension, last rites to the bitter enemy or returning their body to the other side has never been denied.

Many states in America kill those who perpetrate the most heinous and despicable crimes but last rites are not denied.

NHS will not deny treatment to a human being simply because his or her ideology or views are despicable.

NHS will neither deny nor will the chaplain refuse last rites of a dead man because of his or her ideology.

Our (honourable) scholars have started a trend which will be used as judgement against other scholars. British Government did not ask to make this call. The Media did not ask them to make this call. They voluntarily (opted) to thrust this opinion and plant this thought into minds of British population. They also voluntarily (opted) to thrust their choice upon other scholars. Contemporary scholars are now put in a difficult position, if they choose to fulfil their duty (as a Scholar and perform the funeral rituals) they will be labelled as “Terrorist Sympathisers”, if they choose to address the topic from an academic perspective they will be labelled as “Terrorist Sympathisers”.

Let me repeat this again, our (honourable) scholars have voluntarily put a statement out there and started a conversation which was not needed. They have voluntarily planted this idea in the minds of British public. They didn’t merely stop at personal statements about refusing to lead funeral prayers, they have set aside a chain of events which can be used as a judgement call against other scholars (their own fraternity and colleagues).

Where will this end? Where do we draw the line? Which violation of “British Values” will result in invocation of this principle of refusing to lead the funeral prayers?

I am disappointed and regard this as the thin edge of the wedge.

I see some of the signatories and they are respectable, decent, honourable men who are held in good regard by majority of Sunni Muslims in Britain. MCB is not! MCB is often regarded as aloof, disconnected and not representative of grass root (Muslim) views. MCB may be representative of a cross section of (London) Muslims but it most certainly does not represent the views of an overwhelming majority of British Muslims, particularly both conservative and (grass root) politically active Muslims.

I am afraid that some of these Scholars may become a clone of (Maulana) Ibraheem Mogra by chasing MCB into a rabbit hole. Majority of conservative Muslims fundamentally and vehemently disagree with him in our communities. They may not be able to express their views due to PREVENT and/or other reasons but the feeling is genuinely there.

Our (honourable) scholars need to understand that it is the “Muslims” they are supposed to represent and their influence and recognition comes from “Muslims”. Do not go so far in chasing organisations like the MCB that you erode your grassroots support and destroy your credibility.

We (Muslims) are vulnerable, we are under attack, we are gagged, we are bound and we are unable to express our views out of fear of being victimised and targeted. Not many Muslims will express (similar) views because they are fearful of being labelled as “Terrorist Sympathisers”. Not many Scholars will express (similar) views for the very same reasons.

I have checked multiple sources, consulted multiple scholars and there are no solid Islamic reasons, precedence or justification for your actions. You have performed an “ijtehaad” and it should have remained with you. However, you have decided to thrust it upon 3 million British Muslims for us to be judged by it by the (British) society. You have given (another) stick to the Media to beat us with. We (Muslims) detest and abhor what is being done in our name and in the name of our religion. Now, you have planted the idea that we are not doing enough and we need to distance ourselves even from a dead-terrorist!

Next time, when a Mosque or an Imam performs a funeral prayer don’t be surprised if the Media turns up and demands why the funeral prayers were not denied? What will happen when a member of the Rochdale Grooming gang dies? Why should a Muslim Imam offer funeral prayers over them? Their crimes are also heinous and despicable may be not to the same degree but surely paedophilia and grooming girls should amount to something in MCB’s ethical code?

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/rochdale-grooming-story-sex-abuse-13043853

We (patiently) await more press statements from the MCB.

Causes:

What is the likely cause of our (honourable) scholars issuing such a statement? Because our Ulama and Mashaykh lack those with the necessary skillset to provide effective consultation.

A diligent (and sincere) group of individuals would have advised our Ulama and Mashaykh and (politely but respectfully) reminded them of RULE NUMBER ONE of Media relations:

“Don’t put out statements when there is no need. When asked, be precise and to the point. Don’t create issues which don’t exist”.

The perception of the King (to the masses) is the result of consul of the Wazir (wise minister).

Faces have changed, characteristics have not.

Decisions have changed, repercussions have not.

If Deobandees want to fix things, they should assemble a team of people around them who will not be afraid to warn and disagree (with courtesy and respect). Above all, gather people who have the skillset and the talent to do the job and not because they happen to be Mureeds of a certain Shaykh or went to a certain Darul-uloom or students of a certain Shaykh. If right people have those affiliations (in addition to their primary skills) Allah Ta’ala has blessed you but choosing affiliations over skills is a disaster.

Many of the Muslim countries (like Pakistan) are a basket case because people are not selected based on skills and talents.

Pride?

I would have been proud of our Scholars if they would have said:

  1. We fundamentally disagree with the actions of those who attack Civilians

  2. We regard their actions to be outside the fold of Islam.

  3. But we disagree with the calls to deny them their last (funeral) rights. It is the most basic human right to treat those who are injured or those who have died to be accorded last rites.

  4. We are better than ISIS, we are not inhumane and we will hold onto our basic human value and decency.

We will continue to show our humanity and our decency despite our fundamental differences. We will not become like THEM!

Muadh Khan

07th of June 2017

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#2 [Permalink] Posted on 7th June 2017 17:03

abu mohammed wrote:
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Exactly my point too but better said.
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#3 [Permalink] Posted on 7th June 2017 17:21
Even bin Laden was given his last rights!

From The Telegraph:

"Traditional procedures for Islamic burial was followed," the May 2 email from Rear Admiral Charles Gaouette reads. "The deceased's body was washed (ablution) then placed in a white sheet. The body was placed in a weighted bag.

"A military officer read prepared religious remarks, which were translated into Arabic by a native speaker. After the words were complete, the body was placed on a prepared flat board, tipped up, whereupon the deceased's body slid into the sea."

The letters also revealed that no Navy sailors witnessed the burial and there are no pictures or video of the event.
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#4 [Permalink] Posted on 7th June 2017 17:58

The bit in RED is the issue.

“Consequently, and in light of other such ethical principles which are quintessential to Islam, we will not perform the traditional Islamic funeral prayer over the perpetrators and we also urge fellow imams and religious authorities to withdraw such a privilege. This is because such indefensible actions are completely at odds with the lofty teachings of Islam.”
 

US, British Military or NATO never does this!

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#5 [Permalink] Posted on 7th June 2017 18:07
off topic. deleted. do not want to derail thread.
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#6 [Permalink] Posted on 7th June 2017 18:53
Nabi (saw) avoided offering the funeral prayer for some people, as a punishment and a rebuke, and so as to deter others from doing what they did. He did not offer the funeral prayer for one who had stolen from the war booty, or for one who had killed himself.

Jabir ibn Samurah said: A man who had killed himself with an arrow was brought to the Messenger of Allah (saw), but he did not offer the funeral prayer for him.

Al-Baaji said in al-Muntaqa: This is the Sunnah, rulers and people of virtue should refrain from offering the funeral prayer for those who committed major sins, as a deterrent against doing similar actions. The fact that he (saw) commanded others to offer the prayer for him indicates that they come under the heading of believers and are not regarded as non-believers because of the sins they committed.

Ibn Taymiyah said: If a person who did not pay zakaah and did not pray except in Ramadaan dies, the people of knowledge and religious commitment should refrain from offering the funeral prayer for him as a punishment and a rebuke to those who are like him, because the Prophet (saw) refrained from offering the funeral prayer for one who had killed himself, one who had stolen from the war booty, and a debtor who had died without paying off his debt. But some people must offer the funeral prayer for him.… If a person who committed sin openly but still had some faith died, like those who commit major sins, and someone refuses to offer the funeral prayer for him as a rebuke to others who are like him, he has done well. If a person offers the funeral prayer for him in the hope that Allah will have mercy on him, and because there is no purpose to be served by refraining from offering the prayer for him, he has also done well. If a person refuses outwardly to offer the funeral prayer for him but makes dua for him in secret in order to achieve both purposes, that is better than missing out on one of them.

In al-Insaaf, al-Mardawi narrated that Imam Ahmad did not offer the funeral prayer for those who had committed major sins, and he said: al-Majd said that the funeral prayer should not be offered for anyone who had died openly committing sin without having repented. It says in al-Furoo: and this view is sound.

from islamqa.info

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#7 [Permalink] Posted on 7th June 2017 19:18

bobby wrote:
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I suspect that none of the Ulama will thoroughly academically challenge the matter out of the fear of being caught up in the snares of PREVENT so MCB has a win-win at their hands.

Nevertheless the obvious distinction between the Hadeeth being quoted is this:

Hadeeth:

islamqa.info/en/67576

وروى أبو داود (2710) والنسائي (1959) وابن ماجه (2848) عَنْ زَيْدِ بْنِ خَالِدٍ الْجُهَنِيِّ ( أَنَّ رَجُلًا مِنْ أَصْحَابِ النَّبِيِّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ تُوُفِّيَ يَوْمَ خَيْبَرَ فَذَكَرُوا ذَلِكَ لِرَسُولِ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ ، فَقَالَ : ( صَلُّوا عَلَى صَاحِبِكُمْ ) فَتَغَيَّرَتْ وُجُوهُ النَّاسِ لِذَلِكَ . فَقَالَ : ( إِنَّ صَاحِبَكُمْ غَلَّ فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ ) فَفَتَّشْنَا مَتَاعَهُ فَوَجَدْنَا خَرَزًا مِنْ خَرَزِ يَهُودَ لا يُسَاوِي دِرْهَمَيْنِ ) .

Abu Dawood (2710), al-Nasaa’i (1959) and Ibn Maajah (2848) narrated from Zayd ibn Khaalid al-Juhani that one of the companions of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) died on the day of Khaybar. The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was told about that and he said: “Offer the funeral prayer for your companion.” The people’s expressions changed (i.e. they did not know why the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was not going to lead the funeral prayer himself). He said: “Your companion stole from the war booty (when fighting) for the sake of Allaah.” We searched his belongings and found some pearls from the pearls of the Jews that were not even worth two dirhams.

MCB Statement:

“Consequently, and in light of other such ethical principles which are quintessential to Islam, we will not perform the traditional Islamic funeral prayer over the perpetrators and we also urge fellow imams and religious authorities to withdraw such a privilege. This is because such indefensible actions are completely at odds with the lofty teachings of Islam.”

MCB Statement Consequences?

Placed the British Muslim community and fellow Ulama in a very difficult position.

What next for MCB?

Will they issue statements for rapists, paedophiles, groomers etc? 

Practise of Ulama?

ونقل المرداوي في "الإنصاف" (2/535) : عن الإمام أحمد أنه لا يصلى على أهل الكبائر . وقال : " واختار المَجْد (مجد الدين ابن تيمية جد شيخ الإسلام ابن تيمية) أنه لا يصلي على كل من مات على معصية ظاهرة بلا توبة . قال في الفروع : وهو متجه " انتهى

 

In al-Insaaf, al-Mardawi narrated that Imam Ahmad did not offer the funeral prayer for those who had committed major sins, and he said: al-Majd said that the funeral prayer should not be offered for anyone who had died openly committing sin without having repented. It says in al-Furoo: and this view is sound.

We have drug peddlers, rapists, alcoholics, those indulging in fornication, usury in our communities and our Ulama usually perform their funeral.

Politically convenient ruling? Absolutely.

What may have been down to “Ijtehaad” and personal preference has been firmly placed in the Media for them to beat us with.

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#8 [Permalink] Posted on 7th June 2017 19:33
personally i dont see any difference between the statement of MCB, and the sunnah that people of virtue (imams) and the rulers (religious authorities) should refrain from offering the funeral prayer for those who commit major sin.
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#9 [Permalink] Posted on 7th June 2017 20:00
السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته

The fiqh is in the situation of a dead Muslim who's perpetrated such crimes against the public is not honored with a communal janazah by the leaders of the community due to the nature of his crimes. I don't think it's an ijtihadi matter, rather a sound position in the fiqh of the four madhahib. Nevertheless, anyone who dies as a Muslim, despite his sins, has a right to an Islamic burial. So long as Ulama are not saying those guilty of these crimes don't deserve to be buried at all ([absolutely] which I don't think they are. They're saying they won't do it and urging other Muslim leaders not to also), then such a position is valid.

Fiqhi Solution: Have the Islamic burials done privately with low attendance, as to not make the Muslim community sanction such criminal actions (It being done privately doesn't mean that those in attendance are sanctioning such actions either, but are fulfilling the Islamic right to burial, which is also a human right; for those who don't prescribe to Islamic teachings).

Societal/Political Solution: As was mentioned indirectly above, all humans have a right to be buried, whether one individual or society likes it or not. So push for awareness and be proactive instead of reactionary and being scared to uphold basic human rights through fearmongering, Muslim or not.
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#10 [Permalink] Posted on 7th June 2017 20:49

bobby wrote:
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As I have said you have PREVENT and the British Government on your side so nobody can really refute you in depth.

Nevertheless, you don’t see a difference between the Prophet (peace be upon Him) saying “Pray over your companion” VERSUS MCB saying “...we also urge fellow imams and religious authorities to withdraw such a privilege...".

Fair enough….you win

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#11 [Permalink] Posted on 7th June 2017 21:04

Sulaiman84 wrote:
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As I have said, you have PREVENT and the British Government on your side so nobody can really refute you in depth. Nevertheless, here is a timeline:

Timeline:

  1. 3rd of June 2017: Terrorist incident occurs
  2. 5th of June 2017: Police name the first "attacker"
  3. 5th of June 2017: MCB issue statement
  4. 6th of June 2017: Police name the third "attacker"

So far there has been no trial and no official conviction in a court.

How did the Ulama connect the “major sin” to a “major sinner”? Based on reports in the BBC? Is that a sound and acceptable position in the four (4) Madhahib?

Hundreds of murderers, drunkards, fornicators die in Britain and our Ulama have never invoked this principles which is firmly established in four (4) Madhahib.

But our Ulama established the principle based within a day of Counter-Terroist Police issuing a statement?

Legal principle and application:

And will this principle established in the four (4) Madhahib apply to other sins or will only be brought out within hours of British Police issuing statements in incidents of Terrorism?

Fair enough….you win

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#12 [Permalink] Posted on 7th June 2017 21:05
MCB: "we also urge fellow imams and religious authorities to withdraw such a privilege"
Ibn Baaji: "This is the Sunnah, rulers (religious authorities) and people of virtue (imams) should refrain from offering the funeral prayer for those who committed major sins"

whats the issue? imams and religious authorities are exactly that -- imams and religious authorities. why have you redefined it to include all muslims? muad, if you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.
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#13 [Permalink] Posted on 7th June 2017 21:12

bobby wrote:
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I suppose Ulama have established Terrorism to be a major sin (above all else) and guilty of withholding Janazah. A police statement on Twitter or a Press conference is sufficient to establish the sin, sound principle in 4 Madhahib and all that...

You win and as per your "order" I will stop digging.

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#14 [Permalink] Posted on 7th June 2017 21:16
Quote:
Hundreds of murderers, drunkards, fornicators die in Britain and our Ulama have never invoked these principles which are firmly established in four (4) Madhahib.


So call them out on that and leave the rest.
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#15 [Permalink] Posted on 7th June 2017 21:21

These Ulama have gone a step further and told the Media that it’s not good enough for Muslims to condemn Terrorism but British Muslims must condemn and separate themselves from “dead Terrorists” based on Police Statements.

This won’t stop until this becomes mainstream public opinion.

Internment Camps for British Muslims:

Halalified YT Audio

Enough is Enough:

en-gb.facebook.com/ShaykhZahirMahmood/posts/1376488979103355

Enough is Enough

#Enoughisenough of these vile, inhumane, irreligious attacks on innocent civilians in the name of our beautiful religion.

#Enoughisenough of the government denying that their foreign policy has "nothing to do with attacks on our shores", when there were zero attacks before the invasion of Iraq, placing the blame squarely on the shoulders of the Muslim community.

#Enoughisenough of these “superhero imams, scholars and organisations” who only voice their outrage when an atrocity is committed on Western shores and have never uttered a word regarding the injustices in Burma, Congo, Syria and other places. They should not be surprised when their hypocrisy is called out and their words have zero impact, creating distrust for them in the eyes of the very individuals they need to engage.

#Enoughisenough of Muslims using these evil attacks as an opportunity to grind old axes and exploit sectarian divides.

#Enoughisenough of our government embracing policies from the most right wing Islamophobic think thanks in the UK and then express surprise in the alienation of the Muslim community and a climate of distrust.

#Enoughisenough of the unfettered demonisation of the Muslim community by the tabloids, news, MPs and every perceivable bigot.

Enough of Theresa May

#votethursday

Ramadan Kareem

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