Interview with Shaykh (Mufti) Saeed Ahmed Palunpuri (HA)

Discussion with Shaykh (Mufti) Saeed Ahmed Palunpuri (HA): Part 4

Scenario

This was a small room, hot with 9 people and a small fan running. Mufti Saheb (HA) was sitting on a chair with clear and visible swelling on both legs and feet.

And I had just lost my notes, my recording device and was told to condense everything in 1-2 lines. Everyone was looking at me with pity thinking that this will have to be cancelled.

I said, “No Problems”…I will rely on my memory and ask questions.

Muadh Khan: Mufti Saheb (HA), We are sitting here due to the connection of Deoband. What were the attributes of Akabir of Deoband which gave them so much Qubuliyat (acceptance) with Allah (SWT).

Mufti Saheb (HA): I told you history is not my strong point so I can’t answer this.

:P

Muadh Khan:  I wish to speak to you because I remember a snippet of a talk in 2007 from this very Mosque. I will now recall from my memory.

Mufti Saheb (HA): Sure...

Muadh Khan:  You said that Muslims these days complain that we have no solutions. State your problems and Ulama will dive deep into Qur’aan & Sunnah and formulate responses for you. I found this very intriguing and interesting.

Mufti Saheb (HA): Sure I said to consult the Ulama and not to come to me

Muadh Khan: Mufti Saheb (HA), Yes you did

Muadh Khan: BUT Mufti Saheb (HA), I consider your an Alim so I have to come to you, don't I?

Mufti Saheb (HA): (Smiled and appeared to have enjoyed that response)...

Mufti Saheb (HA): I lack knowledge so I cannot answer these queries but you are absolutely right that people should consult "Ulama". I should be consulted on my work.

Muadh Khan: Absolutely right...

Muadh Khan: What are you working on at the moment? 

Mufti Saheb (HA):  I am writing a Tafseer of the Qur’aan and I would like my life to end (in Service) to the Book of Allah (SWT).

Muadh Khan: When will it be finishing?

Mufti Saheb (HA):  I have 18 Juz ready and rest is being done, make dua.

Muadh Khan: Are you doing any work on any compilation of Shaykh (Maulana) Qasim Nanotwi (RA)?

Mufti Saheb (HA):  No. not at the moment.

Discussion with Shaykh (Mufti) Saeed Ahmed Palunpuri (HA): Part 5

How to Study and do Research...

Muadh Khan: Mufti Saheb (HA), Many of our English speaking Muslims know nothing about Shah Waliullah (RA) and his works specially Hujjatullah-il-Baligha? Can you tell our readers about this?

Mufti Saheb (HA): Son, the first words Allah (SWT) revealed in the Qur’aan were about reading...

[96:1] Read with the name of your Lord who created (every thing),

You (all) like your fancy cars and your thing (what do you call it …CD???) and you put it in your cars and you listen and you read on (what do you call it …Internet???), is this how knowledge comes? Knowledge come reading (with depth).

Muadh Khan: Mufti Saheb (HA), How do you read with depth?

Mufti Saheb (HA): That's a good question...

1. Place the book on a high surface in front of you
2. Sit cross legged
3. Put thick (brick like glasses)
4. Dive in...

Audience: Mufti Saheb (HA), What like glasses?

Mufti Saheb (HA): Thick (like Brick), I am just joking don't do this... :P

Muadh Khan: Mufti Saheb (HA), How do you read with depth?

Mufti Saheb (HA): You read over and over and you keep what you people call (O yes Highlighter) and highlight in (different) colours. Finish the book and start again and again until you have fulfilled the rights and then you will grasp what the Author is conveying.

Muadh Khan: Mufti Saheb (HA), A Scholar in America says that you have to read a book at least 3 times.

Mufti Saheb (HA): That is an excellent advice but sometimes upto 20 or more.

Mufti Saheb (HA): In a compilation Mufti Sahfi (RA) writes that he has read a praticular section of Hujjatullah-il-Baligha 20 times, 20 times and who has he? Shaykhul-Islam of Pakistan

Muadh Khan: Mufti Saheb (HA), Every section 20 times?

Mufti Saheb (HA): No, some sections are easy so you make a judgement call but read in sequence and move through the text gradually and sequentially.

Muadh Khan: Mufti Saheb (HA), Maulana Obaidullah Sindhi (RA) writes that for 30 years he read nothing but Qur'aan and Hujjatullah-il-Baligha

Mufti Saheb (HA): Yes for 30 years but you know what? He made errors (in understanding). In my commentary I have written precisely and explained clearly about the errors.

Mufti Saheb (HA): By the way, Maulana Obaidullah Sindhi (RA) is very popular in your Pakistan and there is a movement inspired by him but in our India people hardly know him. (Laughing) you Pakistanees like him a lot.

Muadh Khan: Mufti Saheb (HA), Yes he is popular in Pakistan but movement (inspired by him) has died out.

Muadh Khan: Mufti Saheb (HA), Why did he make those errors?

Mufti Saheb (HA): He was impressed with Communism and read about the works of Stalin etc so he had those (tinted coloured glasses), you know what coloured glasses are?

Muadh Khan: Mufti Saheb (HA), Yes I do....

Mufti Saheb (HA): You cannot understand something by pre-empting what the Author has to so. You have to read with an open mind and not with tinted glasses (of your own Bias). So he had tinted glasses of Communism and it affected his understating.

So did Maulana Maududi (RA), his understanding of Islam was also tainted (in this way with Communism)

Mufti Saheb (HA): Alas the Nadwees & Jamat-e-Islami regard Hujjatullah-il-Baligha as prime reading but Maulvees (from our Darul-ulooms) have abandoned this!

Mufti Saheb (HA):

1. I have written 5 Volume Commentary on Hujjatullah-il-Baligha
2. A woman in Chicago is also writing about this and she commented that "My commentary has had assisted greatly in her research)
3. I have also heard that South African Ulama have summarised and published it in English in several Volumes

You and your readers need to read and understand Shah Waliullah (RA) and his works.

Son, Knowledge is ganined with hardship not by listening.

Listening is for pleasure.

Today in your (public) transport I have noticed people reading a lot. But I think they are reading fiction (and Novels), are they not?

Reading is something else.

The eyes have to be engaged, the mind has to be engaged. All faculties have to be engaged.

Mufti Saheb (HA): Today in the Synagogue I saw revision between 2 students (only) repetition and revision.  I liked this style. I will reemphasises this 1-to-1 repetition and revision at Deoband upon my return.

I really liked that...

Discussion with Shaykh (Mufti) Saeed Ahmed Palunpuri (HA): Part 6

Severe (Disagreement) on Technology

Muadh Khan: Mufti Saheb (HA), Why is it that Indian is the hub of (IT) Technology and yet the presentation of some of the material from Darul-uloom Deoband and others is not of a very high standard?

Mufti Saheb (HA): We don't put much stock into computers and websites and Internet etc.

Muadh Khan: Mufti Saheb (HA), May I argue with you on this point? Do I have your permission?

Mufti Saheb (HA): With Pleasure...

Muadh Khan: Mufti Saheb (HA), Today's youngster spends so much time on the Phone or laptop so what is to prevent them from getting their Deen from a Baatil (False) site?

Mufti Saheb (HA): We affirm the statement of Imam Malik (RA) that Islah (reformation) of this (current) generation will only be done by following (ways and methodologies) of earlier generations.

لن يصلح آخر هذه الأمة إلا بما صلح به أولها

Internet cannot make anyone pray Salah!

Muadh Khan: I agree (to some extent) but its about countering all the wrong which is already on the Internet.

Mufti Saheb (HA): You want us to counter the wrong by using the wrong. We don't believe in this pictures, (Video) and Media.

Muadh Khan: I did not say anything about Video and Pictures I said about presenting Text in a better way or even voice.

Mufti Saheb (HA): Jamaats are travelling around the world, Ulama are travelling around the world, I am in this age and condition travelling around the world, is it not an effort to counter Baatil?

Mufti Saheb (HA): Our Darul-uloom (Deoband) already has a site for people but not much importance and emphasis is put on it. But Tableeghi Jamaat is even behind us (in these matters).

Muadh Khan: So the world will get rectified through a Tableeghi Jamaat like effort?

Mufti Saheb (HA): Even some of the actions of Tableeghi Jamaat we disagree with. For example Darul-uloom Deoband and Saharunpur both disagree with Masturat (women) Jamaats. They say that we have tough restrictions but we say that the next generation will become leniant in these matters. So a Mufti has to look at the benefits and disadvantages.

Muadh Khan: Can you give some examples?

Mufti Saheb (HA): Off the top of my head. Refrigerator is a fantastic invention but since its inception giving the meat (to the poor) has declined i.e. people slaughter the animal and they can now freeze the whole sacrifice. Have you thought about this? Poor suffer! I am not against refrigerators but just making a point. A Mufti has to look at Pros and Cons of everything. I am here (with no mobile), those who want to learn Knowledge should contact me, I am mobile (laughing)...Have you considered this?

Our Ulama have always been mobile but why should Mobile (*) give Deen?

(*) In UK a Cellphone is called a "Mobile"

Muadh Khan: Will the opinion of a Mufti change according to place e.g. India to America?

Mufti Saheb (HA): No! A Mufti has to deal with principles

Muadh Khan: I can give you statistics on how and why the reach of Technology is so over-arching and we need to counter Baatil using it...

Mufti Saheb (HA): We are countering Baatil but we don't need to do it "your way" so lets agree to disagree on this matter but I 100% accept that Baatil needs to be countered.

Muadh Khan: Let me put it this way! Darul-uloom Deoband Fatwa site is aweful and it takes me hours to search a Fatwa on Talaq lets say...

Mufti Saheb (HA): That I accept that Fatwaas need to be indexed better! This was raised previously (too) and I took it to the Rector of Darul-uloom Deoband and unfortunately nothing was done. I have done my job by alerting them to this matter.

But you have to understand that Website is only a small part of our work.

Muadh Khan: Its the small part which is visible to me?

Mufti Saheb (HA): We have to differ on this matter but to counter Baatil yes we should 100%

Muadh Khan: I see many Ulama and Mashaykh using videos (on youtube). I can't argue with them as they are Senior to me but I did ask, "What is the advantage of this Picture?"

Muadh Khan: You are sitting in front of me and people will hear your words. What advantage will they get by also looking at your picture? No Answer was given to me.

Mufti Saheb (HA): Son, you have made a good point but there is a subtle point here which your thought has also not reached.
I say that even listening won't do as much good as reading because with reading the faculty of sight has to be employed. And even reading will have to be done repeatedly (as we discussed earlier).

To me listening (is for pleasure) and reading (and repetition) is the way to gaining Knowledge

Discussion with Shaykh (Mufti) Saeed Ahmed Palunpuri (HA): Part 7

Shaykhul-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah (RA)

Muadh Khan: Mufti Saheb (HA), Just got a message that Egypt has banned the books of Ibn Taymiyyah (RA), Shaykh Bin-Baz (RA) & Shaykh Uthaymeen (RA).

Mufti Saheb (HA): Which Ulama?

Muadh Khan: Ibn Taymiyyah (RA), Shaykh Bin-Baz (RA) and Shaykh Uthaymeen (RA)

Mufti Saheb (HA): What are their reasons for this?

Muadh Khan: They say that their works spread Extremism

Mufti Saheb (HA): Hmm...

Muadh Khan: What is your opinion on Ibn Taymiyyah (RA)?

Mufti Saheb (HA): History question so I have no opinion on him.

Muadh Khan: (Ignoring and Pressing ahead anyways) We have Ulama who have differences of opinion e.g. Shaykh Abul Hasan Ali Nadwi (RA) has written copious amounts on him and called him Shaykhul-Islam

Mufti Saheb (HA): That he has...

Muadh Khan: We have other Ulama who have pointed out his deviancy in his beliefs...

Mufti Saheb (HA): Who are these Ulama?

Muadh Khan: Latest are from South Africa and you may not know them...

Mufti Saheb (HA): Son, let me teach you a principle! Not every Alim who speaks has the right to speak on a matter. In matters of Qur’aan you have to take the opinion of those who specialise in Qur’aan and in matters of Hadeeth you have to take the opinion of those who specialise in Hadeeth and so on…I don’t know these South Africans and nothing about them but just discussing principles; not everybody who is a graduate of a Darul-uloom is an expert!

Muadh Khan: So what is your personal perspective on Ibn Taymiyyah?

Mufti Saheb (HA): I have volumes of his Fatawa but I have never looked at it (in any detail) but I do read the works of Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya (RA) his student

Muadh Khan: Why is that?  

Mufti Saheb (HA): Horses are of 2 kinds i.e. Submissive and Dominant/Stubborn. Even if you are able to subdue a dominant/stubborn horse there is always a chance that he may kick you or do something when you are not fully on Guard.

Muadh Khan: Explain this matter in some detail, please?   

Mufti Saheb (HA): In Darul-uloom (Deoband) we had Shaykhul-Hadeeth (Maulana) Ibraheem Baliyawi (RA) he spoke little but spoke with depth and precision.

Once someone asked him if prayers are void in areas of Midnight Sun? Maulana (RA) thought about it and then said 1 line:

Time is mechanism for the execution of but not the raison d'être for Prayers.

Once I was in Service to him and I asked him about Ibn Taymiyyah (RA) and he replied in customary precise manner.

He was an expert in Qur’aan and Sunnah but a novice in Ê¿Ilm al-Kalām i.e. ("Science of discourse")

Mufti Saheb (HA):  Why do I take my knowledge from personnel whom Ulama have disagreed with? Should I not take my knowledge from sources (and personalities) regarding whom there are no disagreements?

Mufti Saheb (HA): Same about Ibn Arabi (RA). Saudi Scholars (and some others) call him Kaafir some in our (lands) say that his knowledge came from divince sources; such difference?

Why should I sully my tongue and thoughts by discussing controversies and controversial personalities? Why not spend the same amount of time in acquiring beneficial knowledge from sources which are uncontroversial?

Discussion with Shaykh (Mufti) Saeed Ahmed Palunpuri (HA): Part 8

The Challenge of Apostasy & Atheism

Muadh Khan: Mufti Saheb (HA), The challenge facing us today is not Taqleed etc but Apostasy and Atheism. What are your thoughts on this?

Mufti Saheb (HA): What do you mean by this?

Muadh Khan:  In America there was a recent study about (next) generations of Muslims being affected by propaganda and leaving Islam.

Mufti Saheb (HA): I have to agree with this concern.

Mufti Saheb (HA): I travel worldwide to answer objections on Islam and attacks upon it so this is the topic which I can discuss.

Muadh Khan:  What are the rules of engagement on this issue?  

Mufti Saheb (HA): Give me an objection which comes to your mind and we can discuss?

Muadh Khan:  For example many Muslims these days are affected by problems and they say “I am a Good Person, why does bad come to me?”   

Mufti Saheb (HA): Elaborate more on their point of view?

Muadh Khan:  I am a good honest person, I don’t lie, I don’t cheat, I don’t steal so why has Allah (SWT) afflicted me with this wife or husband or lifestyle? What have I done to deserve this in my life?

Mufti Saheb (HA): I understand now…

Mufti Saheb (HA): In order for you to refute these objections you need to get to the heart of the matter and accurately pinpoint the reasons for their objections (and not necessarily) the objection itself.

You say what makes you think that problems are due to sins only? They can be due to sins (of course)

But Allah (SWT) loves a person (sometimes) that he wants to give afflictions so they can be cleansed of their shortcomings. Do you understand what I mean?

Allah (SWT) actually LOVES you and wants to raise your status not necessarily punish you. Yes you are a good person (no doubt) but you need to be even better cleansed and purified.

And then we have this verse:

[23:115] So did you think that We created you for nothing, and that you will not be brought back to Us?.

So just having the name “Saeed Ahmed” is not enough for being a Muslim. You will be tried, you will be afflicted and you will be tested.

Muadh Khan:  And the attacks on Islam and Prophet Muhammad (Sallalaho Alaihe Wassallam)?

Mufti Saheb (HA): I am roaming around the world at my age to tackle these objections on Islam. I request anyone and everyone to write to Darul-uloom Deoband, I assure you that EACH & EVERY query will be answered.

Mufti Saheb (HA): Shall I let you in on a Secret?

Muadh Khan:  Sure Mufti Saheb…

Mufti Saheb (HA): Teach Bukhari and the doors of afflictions open upon you from all directions. You could be living a normal life and when you start teaching Bukhari your life turns upside down! Ask anyone in the world teaching Saheeh Bukhari...

Discussion with Shaykh (Mufti) Saeed Ahmed Palunpuri (HA): Conclusion

The Art of (Written & Internet) Refutation

Muadh Khan: Mufti Saheb (HA), I know that you have disagreed with Internet and Technologies but this is a question which I must put to you. We have to refute falsehood on the Internet using forums and electronic media; we have no choice. Maulana Yasin (Ameer of Muftisays) says that sometimes refutation of someone who is relatively unknown can drive him in popularity.

Mufti Saheb (HA): I have to agree with Maulana Yasin in what he is saying!

Mufti Saheb (HA): If you a puddle of impurity what happens when you drop a pebble in it or disturb it? It splashes, doesn’t it?

So for refutation NEVER focus on the person, rather focus on the issues. Maulana Maududi (RA) was focused upon and look at what happened! People centred upon him (and he became a rebel leader).  Wahiduddin Khan has similar ideas but he neither has much following because his name is not mentioned at the same time he is also not being effectively refuted.

 Muadh Khan: So should refutations be done?

Mufti Saheb (HA): Absolutely its needed! But quote issues or point of view and then refute with full force. I have done so in my books I study (the opposing point of view), I quote it and then I refute. No need to name people and personalities and giving them and raising their profile

Conclusios:

1. I might be wrong but my deduction is that Mufti Saheb (HA) and from his words (by extension) Darul-uloom Deoband are fiercely against using modern technologies for propagation & defence of Islam. Originally, Mufti Saheb (HA) thought that I was speaking about Photography and videos but I categorically made it clear that I am talking about employing (non-picture and non-video based) mechanisms and cutting out any controversial or disagreement upon methods.
2. Mufti Saheb (HA) clearly stated that they use Internet as a “Token measure” and not something which is part of their strategic vision. His strategic vision (and that of Darul-uloom Deoband) is that reformation of Ummah will be through Tableeghi Jamaat (like) methods of personal interactions.
3. Mufti Saheb (HA) clearly stated that Ulama should tour the world (in person) and people should interact with them individually rather than relying on technology and similar means.
4. Mufti Saheb (HA) clearly stated that even “listening” is not his preferred method of dissemination of Islam.
5. Mufti Saheb (HA) clearly stated that Darul-uloom Deoband & Saharunpur are against Mastoorat (women) Jamaats so there was not much point is asking about issues affecting western women and neither did I get the opportunity to pose my queries as his visible health deteriorated. I did not forget about Sisters and their issues...

May Allah (SWT) give him the best of Health and long life for us to benefit (Ameen).

He did say...and I quote

InshaAllah :)