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Abdur Rahman ibn Awf
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#106 [Permalink] Posted on 7th October 2017 16:08
Firstly you stated:

I have asked you this qeustion in the past, I am asking it again (with respest).

Secondly you stated:

My question (directly to you) is entirely different and on a different topic. Maulana Saleem Saheb is/was an elder and once again Ulama will jump to defend him and tell us to give him benefit of the doubt.....!


Now kindly clarify what you asked me in the past and what you are asking me now.

Or better still just cut/paste which of my remarks you find objectionable. Futhermore I did make additions to my previous post whilst you were in the process of posting the above.

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#107 [Permalink] Posted on 9th October 2017 07:49
Better leave this matter.
May Allah help all those who were involved in this matter and bless everyone with khair. Lets NOT have bad thought about our buzurg Maulvi Abdullah Saleem Saheb and our brother NAK, If this thread is deleted - I'm happy.

Personally, I dont encourage female followers for a male speaker/orator and the type of majlis where ladies are watching a man on stage; Facebook likes and a Fan group for him(esp in West).


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#108 [Permalink] Posted on 9th October 2017 11:34

Abdur Rahman ibn Awf wrote:
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Benefit of doubt should be given to all Muslims and not just some Muslims. You can say that we should leave the matter and not indulge into slanderous accusations. That is fine (and noble).

But what you are doing is casting doubt on some of those involved in making the accusations upon Maulana Saleem and NAK and then advising people to leave the matter alone. In simpler words, you are trying to (covertly) undermine the allegations and casting doubts upon the character and credibility of those make accusations and then saying “Leave the matter”.

Just like the honour and dignity of Maulana Saleem and NAK needs to be preserved so does the honour and dignity of other (ordinary) Muslims.

Dropping the matter altogether (in an unbiased and impartial) manner is the best advice.

Servant.Of.Allah wrote:
View original post

Same question to you. Why is the honour of Maulana Saleem and NAK above and beyond the honour and dignity of a daughter of this Ummat?

That’s the first point, the second point is continuously lost in the background noise so let drop it Insha’Allah.

Let me finish by saying (AGAIN) that I am not saying that these individuals are guilty (far from it) but what I am saying is that if you wish to follow the Sunnah then keep quiet on all fronts. Don’t sing the praises of one party (thus implying their innocence) and then ask to close the thread.

BIAS

www.change.org/p/say-no-to-slandering-of-scholars-on-soci...

  1. I have become concerned with these questions because the reputation of someone I know, Nouman Ali Khan, is being targeted for ruin by a means expressly forbidden to Muslims.
  2. He is a famous, popular teacher, highly successful in that he has a gift for explaining the faith and religion in the idioms most familiar to young Muslims brought up under the influence of Western culture.
  3. Nouman Ali Khan has worked steadily over many years to acquire expertise in the traditional Islamic sciences and traditional discourses on how to live an Islamic life. And then, as I say, he has the skill and freshness of mind and speech, to make those discourses relevant for Muslims living (like most everybody else) through the stresses of ‘modernity’ and ‘post-modernity’.
  4. I have met Nouman Ali Khan a number of times. He has visited me in my home in order to consult with me, over several days, on some difficult questions of Quran and hadith interpretation, and their application in the norms and rules of Muslim practice. I have found no harm in his curiosity, none.
  5. To the contrary, I have been enlightened by his questions, and benefited from our conversations.
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#109 [Permalink] Posted on 9th October 2017 15:07

23SEP2017: Yours Truly...

NAK and Bayyinah have access to solicitors and anything marginally malicious will be hit with a lawsuit. Under the circumstances, the only compromise was to have some sort of control on the situation and everybody hoped that (for the sake of Islam) a compromise was reached.

What NAK has (allegedly) done isn’t a crime (in America) but defamation is a matter open to civil litigation.

28SEP2017: Dr Akram Nadwi (UK based), defends NAK:

www.change.org/p/say-no-to-slandering-of-scholars-on-soci...

03OCT2017: 5 Americans investigate and confirm NAK's conduct with multiple women:

muslimmatters.org/2017/10/03/a-statement-regarding-br-nou...

09OCT2017: NAK sues Omar Suleiman for 1 million US Dollars

So far appears to be unconnected to the scandal but significant nonetheless highlighting the character of NAK.

www.facebook.com/p.bruv/posts/2043760232502838

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#110 [Permalink] Posted on 9th October 2017 17:09
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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"In simpler words, you are trying to (covertly) undermine the allegations and casting doubts upon the character and credibility of those make accusations and then saying “Leave the matter”."

Thats quite presumptive and a wrong presumptions at that...!

Please tell which individuals have I cast doubt upon.
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#111 [Permalink] Posted on 9th October 2017 21:59
We will never know the truth of this so why involve yourself in it. I never took from him anyway, however the man exclaimed more than once that he indeed is not a scholar.
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#112 [Permalink] Posted on 9th October 2017 22:03

The false guise of a monolithic unified community has now been shattered, and now you will see more division, sadaqa rasulallah, salawtullah wa salamuhu 'alayh.
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#113 [Permalink] Posted on 9th October 2017 22:07
Images or videos (media) with people (eyes) is simply not permitted on muftisays.com public section to respect all opinions. If the video is beneficial, please convert it to audio format and repost. See this topic for help on video conversion to audio.

Your avatar has been disabled due to there being a photo. Please update.

JazakAllah

WasSalaam
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#114 [Permalink] Posted on 11th October 2017 09:59

Abdur Rahman ibn Awf wrote:
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Its not presumptuous, its blatantly obvious.

Post 100:

www.muftisays.com/forums/14-peoples-say/8456-nouman-ali-k...

Omer M Muzaffar was the individual behind the expose is also the individual behind the whole case involving Maulana Abdullah Saleem, similar blueprint in which he created a blog post in order to protect victims as he claimed, this individual is University Chaplain and a Movie critic.

Post 104:

www.muftisays.com/forums/14-peoples-say/8456-nouman-ali-k...

Take a look at what (Dr) Akram Nadwi (HA) is doing, he is clearly planting thoughts in the minds of people that due to NAK proximity to (him) he should be given the benefit of the doubt.

Benefit of the doubt:

All I am saying is that you should be extending that courtesy to all Muslims (accusers and the accused). Your first approach here was even handed and balanced.  Advise Muslims to let go of slander and tittle-tattle without casting doubts on either side. I only commented and brought the news (from the other side) simply because you were casting doubt on the characters of the accusers.

If you wish to disregard Omar Muazzafr that’s fine but what will we do about Dr Ingrid Matson and others?

That’s why I am saying be even handed and unbiased. This was praiseworthy.

Post 78:

www.muftisays.com/forums/14-peoples-say/8456-nouman-ali-k...

May be just my age, or have becomes desensitised by the passage of time and such incidences coming more common, but the things that would have shocked me years ago no longer do... Decades ago as a kid I remember just the fact some one, was getting divorced used to be shocking. Now a days if the newly weds are still married after 5 years you think "Wow".

Personally have always had an uneasy feeling concerning any speakers who speak at mix gatherings not to say they are all corrupt or anything just the temptation and opportunity is there. And alot of these female groupies themselves relentlessly chase these speakers. Offering to becomes second wives, I very much doubt if there is a celebrity Shaykh who has not developed a following of female groupies. Or been asked.... "Shaykh are you looking for a second wife"

11OCT2017:

I communicated with someone who co-signed the Dr Akram Nadwi letter and I asked them as to what compelled them to sign it when the local community (in Dallas) has been aware of these matters for a while (I am not claiming that these allegations are true). I was asking about their source of information.

They replied that they know about this Omar Muzaffar character. I then asked them what about the six who have investigated and confirmed that there was inappropriate contact  between NAK and multiple women (whatever the nature of that contact was!), no response!

This is a Senior scholar so I told them that I am no position to be advising him but NAK has a host of lawyers at his disposal so he will sue to silence everyone in this saga, regardless of innocence or guilt. I suggested to the Shaykh to protect his own reputation.

These are not "Omar Muzaffars"

muslimmatters.org/2017/10/02/stray-a-marriage-story/

  1. Sr. Aisha Al-Adawiya
  2. Sr. Salma Abugideiri
  3. Sh. Tamara Gray
  4. Dr. Altaf Husain
  5. Imam Mohamed Magid
  6. Dr. Ingrid Mattson

Once again, I end by saying that we should not take sides. I am only posting the opposite side to make people open their eyes and see that there is another side of this story. I am not saying that Maulana Saleem or NAK are guilty.

I am saying that we should be unbiased, we should not don’t take sides and THEN we should tell Muslims to avoid slander, back-biting etc.

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#115 [Permalink] Posted on 11th October 2017 11:34
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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So in my following 2 posts were I made my feelings clear and by my own admission showed bias according to you I was "Even handed and Praiseworthy."

www.muftisays.com/forums/14-peoples-say/8456-nouman-ali-k...

www.muftisays.com/forums/14-peoples-say/8456-nouman-ali-k...

So when I posted the opposite side were I tried to be balanced according to you I am being biased.

Fact is my personal views are probably no different then yours except I have tried to be balanced and you have not...!

As for Omer M Mozaffar... Here is Shaykh Navaid aziz on him who has supported then accusations.

He stated: "In order to understand where we're going we need to understand how we got here.
Unfortunately, a social media circus has unfolded over the past few days in a manner contrary to those involved would desire. This has created fitnah for the community and has been exploited by many to serve their own agendas.
I have never met or spoken to Omar Muzaffar and I do not know why he released his post when he did. Which should help you understand why this has been chaotic because it was not something coordinated to begin with."

en-gb.facebook.com/navaidaziz/posts/10155770137771477

He mishandled the whole situation from whatever reason did not consult with anyone before making his blogpost. Miscalculated the reaction of the people out there. Did not anticipate the backlash against the ambiguous nature of his expose with people overwhelmingly on Social Media believing there is some sort of conspiracy to bring down NAK.

Because of the bumbling behaviour of Mr Omar M Muzaffar, even if the entire accusations were to be laid in the future , people are not going to believe them see it as just another public lynching.

Besides that people are actively questioning other cases he has been involved him. So he has managed to dis-credit himself.

So if we are to give benefit of doubt to this Omer M Mozaffar what happens if in the future other individuals are accused on social media, with people wanting to promote their own modernist agenda attacking orthodox Sunni Scholars, or wanting to disparage someone for sectarian reasons , or for a personal vendetta...?

Only other accusers I was referring to is Laila al Halw a rabid feminists, Rabia Choudhry a modernist some journalist on Buzz Feed news, they jumped on bandwagon.... So these people deserve no benefit of doubt their modernist progressive Islam agenda is clear.
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#116 [Permalink] Posted on 11th October 2017 11:59

Abdur Rahman ibn Awf wrote:
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As I said, let’s try to take a pragmatic view on the scandal. Even with taking Omar Muzaffar’s claims and his posts with scepticism and completely and absolutely throwing aside everything he said on face value…Doesn’t change the fact that 6 others have investigated the issue and found substantial evidence of (Islamic) wrongdoing.

This is what (Dr) Akram Nadwi asked and it is exactly what they did.

I am still saying that both Maulana Saleem and NAK should not be assumed to be guilty and should be given the benefit of the doubt.
The reason I am (unfortunately have to bring counter evidence) is to balance your throwing doubt on the scandal based on Omar Muzaffar. I am genuinely ashamed of getting into gutter-rebuttals.

All I saying is EVEN AFTER Omar Muzaffar credibility issues (which you are highlighting) there are other sources which are credible.

STILL, what I am asking you to do is to rise above partisanship and to say what you said earlier i.e. let’s drop the issue and abstain from slander and backbiting. What you are doing is:

  1. Casting doubt on accusations (due to credibility issues associated with Omar Muzaffar) and then
  2. Asking Muslims to avoid slander

Point 1 can be easily countered but for the sake of (Sunnah) behaviour, I don’t wish to get into the gutter.

I am asking you to drop commenting on the specifics of the case and simply stick to 2.

I believe that you are displaying bias, you claim that you are not…That’s fine and lets agree to disagree because I don’t wish to step into the gutter to counter your points.

My second point is completely lost on you which is to try to get to the sources of a story instead of quoting random paradigms (TED, CIA conspiracies Youtube etc)….

  • You like quoting paradigms and potential probabilities and possibilities
  • I try to get to facts of a story

We disagree on approaches and that also differ on the conclusions. We are brothers, you have your way and I have mine.

Let me end by saying to everybody.

I am saying to DROP the subject without casting doubts on either side.  The Sisters who have made the accusations deserve equal honour, dignity and respect as Maulana Saleem and NAK. Don't take any sides!

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#117 [Permalink] Posted on 11th October 2017 12:25
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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If you were to say that my earlier posts on this thread were biased against NAK then I would agree. Strange thing is you found no issue with the posts because they agreed with your own feelings.

So when I posted 2 articles which were a counter-view to my own feelings on the case to show that not everything was clear cut...(1) Dr Akram Nadwi and (2) by Daniel Haqiqatjou. You objected.

If you had objection with those articles then you could have just dissected them directly. Instead You objected to me for posting them asked me to respond and I have.

So as far as your point number 2 about leaving this...I am cool with that.

Its not like a couple of obscure grumpy Old middle aged guys, bickering over this issue is going to resolve it.






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#118 [Permalink] Posted on 11th October 2017 13:22
at brother Muadh, no need to take any sides. Innocent until proven guilty. Does it means we are on NAK sides? if yes, then be it.
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#119 [Permalink] Posted on 11th October 2017 13:56


Delete.

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#120 [Permalink] Posted on 11th October 2017 18:45

abu nusayba wrote:
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If we take NAK's side then we by default accuse multiple Muslim women of lying and deception.

Just like evidence is needed to prove that NAK is guilty. Evidence is needed to prove that these Sisters are lying.

It isn't rocket science to figure this out, is it? 

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