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Abdur Rahman ibn Awf
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#121 [Permalink] Posted on 11th October 2017 20:22
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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So Lets stick to the facts.

If we accept the legal principle of innocent until proven guilty that automatically means you are taking side.? On what basis and under what system of Law?

"Just like evidence is needed to prove that NAK is guilty. Evidence is needed to prove that these Sisters are lying.It isn't rocket science to figure this out, is it? "


Again under what system of law does the above come under..? Is it not the case that the burden of proof is on the accuser? if no proof is brought forward then the claim would be considered invalid would it not?

If no accusers come forward publicly and if the nature of the exact accusations is not put forward then what is the legal position on that?

If other individuals come forward saying they have intimate knowledge but fail to clarify what the allegations and misconduct are then what is the legal position on that? What is the legal position both Islamic and in the secular man made system on hearsay evidence? and all the above issues.

When it comes to legal judgement is it not the case the law is dispassionate and from a legal point of view it must be based on evidence? it cannot be based on emotionalism.
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#122 [Permalink] Posted on 11th October 2017 20:41
Ibn ‘Abbas (RadhiyAllahu ‘anhu) said that the Messenger of Allah (SallaAllahu ‘alayhi wasalalm) said:


Were people to be given according to their claims, some would claim the wealth and blood of others. But the burden of proof is upon the claimant and the taking of an oath is upon the one who denies (the allegation).

(A hasan hadith which al-Bayhaqi and others have related. Parts of it is in Bukhari and Muslim)

Brief Commentary

This is a major hadith in Islamic jurisdiction and in trying to resolve problems
Judging between a people is a major role of the prophets (‘alayhim assalam). It is mentioned explicitly in the Qur’an with regards to Sulayman and Dawud (‘alayhima assalam), in Surah Al-Anbiyaa’ [21:78]
The shari’ah came to protect the wealth, life, dignity, and honour of others. This hadith clearly indicates the role Islam plays in trying to preserve the rights of others
Studying the hadith in detail will give an insight into how the shari’ah protects the rights of others and upholds justice between the people
Understanding this hadith shows the comprehensiveness of this religion
This hadith shows the reality of this life and that there are wolves that seek to take people’s rights, and this life is not where everyone will live in harmony as there will always be problems
This hadith derives the principle “Innocent until proven guilty”, so if someone makes a claim against you, you are automatically given the benefit of the doubt until he brings evidence
Bringing proof was usually done by bringing witnesses, however in our time, many more things can be added to proof e.g. fingerprints, video recording, DNA

Conditions for a witness in a court of law:

Muslim (except in the case of judging between two non-Muslims, when a non-Muslim can be a witness)
Adult
Of sound mind
Ability to understand and recognise things and knows right from wrong
Moral integrity i.e. fulfils all obligations and stays away from the major sins and from things that break his integrity (defined by customs of the people)

Being a witness in a court of law is a communal obligation

It is from the major sins to lie in a court of law
Once the prophet (SallaAllahu ‘alayhi wasallam) was lying down/reclining and listing the major sins e.g. being rude to parents, shirk, then he sat upright and said, “false testimony”. He repeated it so many times that the sahabah said they wished he stopped speaking [Reported by Bukhari & Muslim]

When it comes to Islamic punishments, the shari’ah ensures the people try everything to prevent the punishment from taking place. If there is any form of doubt, then the punishment is not implemented


Islamic court of law procedure:

Claimant makes a claim against a defendant
Judge goes to the defendant and asks him if the claimant is telling the truth

If the defendant denies, then the judge goes to the claimant and asks him for proof

If the claimant has no proof for his allegation, then the defendant has to swear an oath that the allegation is not true

If the defendant refuses to take the oath, then the Hanafis and Hanbalis say the judge takes the claimant’s claim forward, but the Shafi’ees and Malikis say if he refuses, then the claimant has to make an oath that he is telling the truth, and if he refuses, then it is ruled in favour of the defendant
A person may refuse to make an oath even though they are telling the truth because they do not want to bring Allah’s name in a petty matter

If the judge knows/feels that the defendant is guilty (due to non-definitive evidence e.g. testimony of witnesses) but he makes an oath pleading his innocence, then out of veneration of Allah’s name he is let off. We cannot let it reach a stage where Allah’s name is not venerated and people swear by Allah yet no one believes them

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#123 [Permalink] Posted on 11th October 2017 20:57
abu mohammed wrote:
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So from legal stand point only the claimant can make a claim. A third party cannot make a claim on the claimants behalf. And this is to prevent a system of anarchy ensuing, where anyone could be accused due to some personal grievances and personal or political agendas.?






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#124 [Permalink] Posted on 11th October 2017 21:07

Abdur Rahman ibn Awf wrote:
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You are not in court and you are not responsible for making a judgement on the issue.

You are responsible for your actions and protecting your Aakhira which you can easily do by saying that I don’t wish to indulge in the matter.

IF you do wish to investigate then state FACTS.

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#125 [Permalink] Posted on 11th October 2017 21:13
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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Yes the most fundamental FACT is the Islamic position is innocent until proven guilty.

Personal suspicions and feelings and emotions are irrelevant.

Hadith on Suspicion: Assumption and speculation are the biggest lies

Abu Amina Elias • October 4, 2011
Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Beware of suspicion, for suspicion is the most false of speech. Do not seek out faults, do not spy on each other, do not contend with each other, do not envy each other, do not hate each other, and do not turn away from each other. Rather, be servants of Allah as brothers.”

Source: Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī 5719, Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 2563

Grade: Muttafaqun Alayhi (authenticity agreed upon) according to Al-Bukhari and Muslim

عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ قَالَ إِيَّاكُمْ وَالظَّنَّ فَإِنَّ الظَّنَّ أَكْذَبُ الْحَدِيثِ وَلَا تَحَسَّسُوا وَلَا تَجَسَّسُوا وَلَا تَنَافَسُوا وَلَا تَحَاسَدُوا وَلَا تَبَاغَضُوا وَلَا تَدَابَرُوا وَكُونُوا عِبَادَ اللَّهِ إِخْوَانًا

5719 صحيح البخاري كتاب الأدب باب يا أيها الذين آمنوا اجتنبوا كثيرا من الظن إن بعض الظن إثم ولا تجسسوا

2563 صحيح مسلم كتاب البر والصلة والآداب باب تحريم الظن والتجسس والتنافس والتناجش ونحوها

abuaminaelias.com/dailyhadithonline/2011/10/04/beware-of-...
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#126 [Permalink] Posted on 12th October 2017 09:49

Abdur Rahman ibn Awf wrote:
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Exactly the point!

I am asking you NOT to suspect any sides at all. You don’t have any facts so you are unable to definitely conclude the innocence or guilt of any side.

You started out with proclaiming the innocence of NAK on two grounds:

1.       Omar Muzaffar has a history and checkered past

2.       This matter should be investigated

The response to your point 1 is that this isn’t just down to Omar Muzaffar

The response to point 2 is that it has now been investigated and there seems to be some substance to these allegation.

STILL, what is being said is to NOT believe in any side and advise Muslims to avoid slander (what you advocated a few days ago).

You are still insisting to proclaim innocence of NAK and then to avoid slander i.e. have partisan avoidance of slander (e.g. avoid posting anything on the topic which paints NAK in a bad light).

The Hadeeth which you have quoted DOES NOT advise Muslims to paint a party of believers as innocent while disparaging and making allegations on the other party.

I don’t wish to step into the gutter but its clear what is being said here i.e. AVOID slander on all sides.

The Sisters on the other sides are also Muslims.

Let me end by saying AGAIN that I am not claiming that  Maulana Saleem or NAK are guilty.

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#127 [Permalink] Posted on 12th October 2017 13:04
Surah an-Noor, Ayat 12 and 13

لَوۡلَاۤ اِذۡ سَمِعۡتُمُوۡهُ ظَنَّ الۡمُؤۡمِنُوۡنَ وَالۡمُؤۡمِنٰتُ بِاَنۡفُسِهِمۡ خَيۡرًاۙ وَّقَالُوۡا هٰذَاۤ اِفۡكٌ مُّبِيۡنٌ‏

Why, when you heard it, did not the believing men and believing women think good of one another and say, "This is an obvious falsehood"?


لَوۡلَا جَآءُوۡ عَلَيۡهِ بِاَرۡبَعَةِ شُهَدَآءَ​ ۚ فَاِذۡ لَمۡ يَاۡتُوۡا بِالشُّهَدَآءِ فَاُولٰٓـئِكَ عِنۡدَ اللّٰهِ هُمُ الۡـكٰذِبُوۡنَ

Why did they [who slandered] not produce for it four witnesses? And when they do not produce the witnesses, then it is they, in the sight of Allah, who are the liars.

(Sahih international)
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#128 [Permalink] Posted on 12th October 2017 14:36
(1) As I understand : Matter related to converts - no local laws violated.
(2) Nouman Khan and Omar Muzaffar - subjudice.

Let us take a break from Fiqh.

Effect on Dawah Matters? Grotesque it might sound but at the moment I feel Dawah is only gaining.

Now the only issue remaining is that two brothers here disentangle themselves from each other. Forgive each other. We got a lot to do.
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#129 [Permalink] Posted on 12th October 2017 15:13
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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(1) "You started out with proclaiming the innocence of NAK :"


No I did not quite the opposite infact I stated: "For some reason I am not surprised or shocked about NAK, this will probably have a domino effect with others also getting exposed....!"


(2) "You are still insisting to proclaim innocence of NAK and then to avoid slander i.e. have partisan avoidance of slander (e.g. avoid posting anything on the topic which paints NAK in a bad light)."

I actually stated: "Personally have always had an uneasy feeling concerning any speakers who speak at mix gatherings not to say they are all corrupt or anything just the temptation and opportunity is there. And alot of these female groupies themselves relentlessly chase these speakers. Offering to becomes second wives, I very much doubt if there is a celebrity Shaykh who has not developed a following of female groupies. Or been asked.... "Shaykh are you looking for a second wife"


Incidentally you did not correct me on my personal biased opinion...rather praised me for those remarks however I realised my error by stating: "Whatever the case at times like this we see what kind of fitnah resides in our own hearts and thoughts. May ALLAH forgive us."

And when I took a balanced approach you suddenly started raising objections. As for your remark "have partisan avoidance of slander (e.g. avoid posting anything on the topic which paints NAK in a bad light)."
Quite the opposite actually I would say you have shown partisan bias , considering you only raised objections when I diverted from your position of "No smoke without fire" and posted a couple of posts that raised questions showing that not everything was black and white, and the incorrect manner in which these allegations were conveyed to the public.

Secondly this is not a blog, it is a thread and so the posts explicitly mentioning NAK had already been posted but I did post an article by Ustadha Zaynab Ansari on this issue where no names where mentioned and an interview with Shaykh Tamim...And no one prevented you from posting articles or views stating the opposite.

(3) I am asking you NOT to suspect any sides at all. You don’t have any facts so you are unable to definitely conclude the innocence or guilt of any side.

No the Islamic position is "Innocent until proven guilty" The presumption of innocence given.....So your accusation that if Individuals are taking the clear and valid position of Presumption of innocence then by default they are taking sides has no basis and is a false equivalency. My personal feelings were made quite clear right at the beginning but those feelings are inconsequential. Unless an individual is proven guilty he is presumed innocent, as the legal maxim "Hearsay evidence is no evidence."

(4) "I don’t wish to step into the gutter..." If you did not wish to step into the gutter then you could
easily have questioned the articles posted on there own merit instead of making it about me or presumtion about what my views or position were.

So let me make it clear to you once and for all my personal feelings and views are no different now then to what I posted at the beginning on this thread...But my personal feelings are irrelevant the issue can only be addressed dispassionately not emotionally on the basis of what can be verified and that is within the public domain not on hearsay.


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#130 [Permalink] Posted on 12th October 2017 15:36
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#131 [Permalink] Posted on 12th October 2017 16:22

Abdur Rahman ibn Awf wrote:
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I believe that unfortunately we are making circular arguments so there is no point in continuing the discussion with you. I sincerely apologise to you.

For everybody else, the issue is dead simple.

  1. A (Muslim) Sister accuses me of inappropriate conduct
  2. I plead innocence
  3. You all give me the benefit of the doubt. You are (indirectly) accusing her of lying

This is NOT what Islam has commanded you to do.

Islam commands you to be Just. Justice is the bed-rock of Islamic Shariah.

Islam has asked you to EITHER investiate (if its any of your business) or REMAIN quiet and avoid slander.

Maulana Saleem and NAK are both well-known personalities, so people are presuming innocence on their behalf thus implying that multiple (Muslim) sisters are lying.

bint e aisha wrote:
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These verses are for Zina and not applicable to tittle-tattle.

Maripat wrote:
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Omar Muzaffar has nothing to do with the matter except for supposed concilling (or lack of it) depending on which side you believe

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#132 [Permalink] Posted on 12th October 2017 17:11
Maripat wrote:
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The situation is far bigger then the present scandal, the whole celebrity Islam, and Americanised Islam culture and the issues that arise from it.
I was about create a separate thread but found that there is already a thread in place.
perhaps it needs to be revisited.... www.muftisays.com/forums/14-peoples-say/10155-blurred-lin...

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