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Seervai on Partition of India

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#16 [Permalink] Posted on 11th October 2019 23:17
ALIF wrote:
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“The world only understand the language of ‘power’,


Assalam u Alaikum,

Dr.Sahab! You know very well that he is living in India as a minority. He is doing his best for the cause of ummah and we appreciate his efforts. You can only use power when you have "power".
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#17 [Permalink] Posted on 12th October 2019 07:21
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Walakum assalam sir, yes I understand his position and appreciate his efforts. The message is for all, not limited to Maripat. He is doing his best indeed...
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#18 [Permalink] Posted on 12th October 2019 07:59
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Thank you very much sir !

It all leads me to one conclusion, that in all probability, keeping the ‘true’ mindset of Hindu majority in mind (which is very obvious today), the same thing would have happened in any case one day.The Muslims would have decided that living with Hindu is not an option any more, and that Muslims need a separate country of their own. That would have lead to the same kind of civil war and bloodshed that we saw during partition, in-fact with more bloodshed and more loss of human life, because then Hindus would have been in power instead of the British....

It could only have been delayed for sometime. The end result would be the same. Gandhi and Nehru were still decent human beings, the likes of Modi would have made sure that no muslim survives to see and enjoy a separate state. So irrespective of wether it was ‘intentional’ or ‘unintentional’, it was ‘good’...

And sir, i have all respect for the trouble you take to defend the Muslim cause, but i and many like me have reached a conclusion : “The world only understand the language of ‘power’, they only want to know ‘who can harm them’ and ‘who can benefit them’. Let us not deceive ourselves by trying to put some ‘sense’ into their minds. The world knows and understands ‘everything’, they can tell ‘wrong from right’, they can differentiate ‘truth from lies’, they can not miss who is ‘Zalim and who is Mazloom’....

That they turn a blind eye to Zulm is only because it suits them....

I huge agree.

And as I have been saying that for many decades I have been observing that Pakistani diplomats, as well as politicians, have been articulating their concerns as Pakistanis as well as Muslims in an exemplary manner.

That troubles of Muslims have not reduced but increased should not discourage Muslims because In Allah SWT's scheme victory ultimately belongs to Muslims if they are believers.

In fact I have been trying to extract and present evidence in favour of things looking up for us.
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#19 [Permalink] Posted on 12th October 2019 09:51
Maripat wrote:
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InshaAllah 👍

All is going in our favour sir, it is all going ‘exactly’ in our favour.....

“ fighting is obligatory for you, though it is hateful to you. But you may hate a thing although it is good for you, and may love a thing although it is evil for you. Allah knows, and you do not”. (Quran)

Destiny is at work sir, we hate wars but we find ourselves dragged into it, the outsiders are attacking us, and we are at war from within....

But there is a lot of ‘khair’ in it too, we are being given compulsory training for tough times ahead. We are now used to falling bombs, burning houses and the stench of the decaying bodies; We are more used to displacements from homes, the death of near one’s , the destruction of our properties; We are learning it the hard-way, that neither the pleasures nor pains of this temporal life are permanent, that the comfort of sweet home may suddenly end without a warning, that the country we call our’s May suddenly become a hell for us and we may find ourselves finding refuge in hostile foreign lands whose people despise us :(

We are certainly becoming a tough nation !

The images which others can’t even watch on their TV screens without a warning beforehand, we are living those as real events...

This Ummah is becoming the most ‘battle hardened’ nation for future wars. A distinct advantage sir.
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#20 [Permalink] Posted on 12th October 2019 17:34
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Thank you very much sir !

You are welcome my dear.

And since the above post by you is at a very crucial juncture of the thought process that I am following I am quoting it and commenting on it again.

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It all leads me to one conclusion, that in all probability, keeping the ‘true’ mindset of Hindu majority in mind (which is very obvious today), the same thing would have happened in any case one day.The Muslims would have decided that living with Hindu is not an option any more, and that Muslims need a separate country of their own. That would have lead to the same kind of civil war and bloodshed that we saw during partition, in-fact with more bloodshed and more loss of human life, because then Hindus would have been in power instead of the British....

True.

And Muslims in general, not merely the very sharp ones, were conscious of it from day one.

That is why they, the Muslims, took a very conciliatory approach to the Hindu-Muslim relations.

Sadly the majoritarian mindset that Sir Syed noted as long back as 1867, just ten years after the united Hindu-Muslim action against the British, has manifested itself in a very ugly, unsavory, obnoxious, pugnacious, xenophobic and Islamophobic manner. Sir Syed was far ahead of his times. The rest of the Muslims got a taste of the bitter medicine beginning with the Bangla novel called the Anand Math by Bankim Chandra Chaterjee that contains the song Vande Mataram.

The Pakistani option at the public level is rather clear in view of the machinations of the Communal Hindus - what is your problem if we got a country for ourselves, they, the Pakistanis, should ask.

That is only the first step on the assertive side.

The second step would be to tell the communal Hindus that it was not a friendly gesture to dissect Bangladesh away. It is in this context the Pakistani gestures that I am suggesting towards Bangladesh will be handy. Bangladeshis have to be assured at every moment that Pakistan accepts their decision to separate.

At the next level Pakistan has to refine the attitude further. The 'communal' angle is a self defeating one for us Muslims. We must start using the terminology of Islamophobia even in the case of the problems of Muslims of India and Indo-Pak relations as well as the case of creation of Bangladesh.

It will change the rhetoric significantly. My brothers should try using the Islamophobia terminology and see the results for themselves. Muslims have been behaving so responsibly in Indian subcontinent for last 150 years that our case is extremely strong.

At the world stage, if I may add that issue in this place, the problem is that the west had done so much injustice to us that we again can go ballistic but I shall deal with that angle in the other threads.

And I agree that ultimately the things might boil down to ground level fight. But the way we have been behaving responsibly for last 150 years we still must take that attitude to the logical conclusion and complete the argument - Atmaam-e-Hujjat.

Plus the academic route that I am taking has the potential of saving a lot of bloodshed. Please remember the west says that talk softly but carry a stick. Of course that is for their own use and they would not like to extend this benefit to others and not to Muslims at all. We are the people who took their lands from them in what they call the middle east. They have not stopped thinking of the middle east as their lands and they have not forgiven us for that. That is why the crusades were there and their irritation and phobia was increased by the Ottomans for they breathed heavily on European neck for five centuries and twice knocked at the door of Vienna.

That is why they came with significant preparation, science, technology, weapons, sociology and all that a few centuries later. I am talking about colonialism.

After the colonialism there was neo-colonialism or economic colonialism that continues till today.

And then there has been Muslim resistance. That has really scared them. What is worse that many modern thinkers, who are not necessarily Muslims but are well versed in modern European/American thought process have debunked the theories that all Muslims are terrorists or all terrorists are Muslims.

And then there is the history of Khurasan in last few decades. Think from western perspective and you can have some idea of how scared, at least at times, they might be. It is in this context that you should read my Signature below. Whatever we talk we got to take care of western nerves.

Basically Muslims have opened too many fronts and the west has done its bit in that too. Please remember me and you are not the only thinking people around. The west too is doing the same. And they have the advantage of having the upper hand.
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It could only have been delayed for sometime. The end result would be the same. Gandhi and Nehru were still decent human beings, the likes of Modi would have made sure that no muslim survives to see and enjoy a separate state. So irrespective of wether it was ‘intentional’ or ‘unintentional’, it was ‘good’...

I can not agree more.

And that is where I was glad because you would make a statement like above only if you were keeping track of my thought process. That means two things - I am on the right track and Muslims in genral have been quite well aware of their problems and predicament. The exasperation that we face is because of the monumental and gigantic level of the problem and the paradigm that we face to come out these problems is gigantic too.

Indeed many times I listen to Muslim commentators, particularly from Pakistan, I feel that we Muslims, by the Grace of Allah SWT, have a very good grip on the issues. Problem is gigantic, our detractors are not only ahead of us but do have better means and above all they are very united.

That is where our unity becomes hugely important.

By the way I became aware of the issue that ultimately things might boil down to clash with the Saffron bigots and a clash with the west but I always suppressed that discussion here because any discussion of that kind would only alarm the detractors. And please remember in spite of best intentions and in spite of innocence one might end up in a soup. Just take the example of Dr Zakir Naik. He did not advocate any clash at all but ended up with all sorts of accusations against him, including being an inspiration for violent actions, and he is locked outside of India and his money has been taken away and his property seized.

And in the process of our dialogue with the west somewhere we have to communicate to the individual countries that we are not looking for trouble and they should not be part of any actions detrimental to the interests of Muslim Ummah. In India there is a need to make a point across to the Saffronite that there is life beyond present peak of saffron power. I suppose this view has to be carried and communicated by the liberal democrats in India.

In fact Sanjiv Bhatt is an example of the same. He is in jail because the PM knows that once he is out of power the wheels of the system are bound to roll in the direction that will bring him face to face with the justice system.

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And sir, i have all respect for the trouble you take to defend the Muslim cause, but i and many like me have reached a conclusion : “The world only understand the language of ‘power’, they only want to know ‘who can harm them’ and ‘who can benefit them’. Let us not deceive ourselves by trying to put some ‘sense’ into their minds. The world knows and understands ‘everything’, they can tell ‘wrong from right’, they can differentiate ‘truth from lies’, they can not miss who is ‘Zalim and who is Mazloom’....


There are two steps before that.
To take the best advantage of diplomacy and civil dialogue and logic and reasoning.
And to minimize the extent of the clash if there is one.

You'll agree that we are part of this paradigm only. The people who are part of the physical action are not here are they do not waste their time in intellectual cud-chewing that I keep doing.
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That they turn a blind eye to Zulm is only because it suits them....

True. And I am in the business of telling this to the detractors of Islam and Muslims. The task is difficult. I can not take a statement out of my mind that Professor Mehmood Mamdani wrote in his book Good Muslim, Bad Muslim. He said it is so difficult to criticize Israel in USA. This statement can be continued. It is so difficult to communicate to the west that they have encroachment on our life space and they must lift it and do so completely.

And it is difficult to communicate to the Saffronite that we Muslims are fed up with their atrocities. And it is difficult to communicate to the liberal democrats in India that we are not part of the liberal democratic crowd but we are Muslims and that is different. We act as part of democracy because that is what we gladly accepted in 1947.
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#21 [Permalink] Posted on 12th October 2019 19:03
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JazakAllah khairan for your kind reply

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The rest of the Muslims got a taste of the bitter medicine beginning with the Bangla novel called the Anand Math by Bankim Chandra Chaterjee that contains the song Vande Mataram.

The first thing in any potential conflict is to understand the mindset of the opponent. Hindu remained under occupation for a long time. India was not a single ‘state’ to begin with, it was a conglomeration of numerous small states before Muslim rule. It was not even one ‘solid faith’ or religion. Hindu religion can only very loosely be termed as one religion. In the very distant past, they had ruled a large empire on two different occasions, up to bamyan in afghanistan, but even then one major empire was ‘Buddhist’ and not Hindu...

Their society is bitterly divided on the basis of multiple ‘classes’, some more superior or socially more advantaged than others. Our Muslim rulers proved very tolerant and broad minded, otherwise it was not difficult to convert the lower class hindus to Islam, as Islam is their ‘natural refuge’. Had we done that today Muslims would be majority in India :(

It was the British rule that gave them a sense of ’national identity’, and that was when they started showing their true colours of hatred, extremism and narrow mindedness, specially towards Muslims.....

The oppressed lower classes amongst Hindus are our ‘natural Allies’ even today. We need to work on them.

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The second step would be to tell the communal Hindus that it was not a friendly gesture to dissect Bangladesh away. It is in this context the Pakistani gestures that I am suggesting towards Bangladesh will be handy. Bangladeshis have to be assured at every moment that Pakistan accepts their decision to separate.

I have admitted many times that we did not do justice to Bengalis in Pakistan.They were wronged. I offer my apologies to them as a person, and i am sure you will find no two pakistanis having a different view than mine.

Telling Hindu extremists that their intervention in East Pakistan was unfriendly would only increase their arrogance further. That was their only big victory against Muslims after a long long time, and they enjoy talking about it even today. Their confidence in their aged armed forces is mainly because of their victory over Pakistan in Bengal. Their false confidence may come crashing down in any future conflict with Pakistan, who knows...

Unfortunately Bengalis find themselves in trouble once again, at the hands of pseudo-imperialist Hindu India (not the secular India of Nehru). We must support them at every level, the phone call of Imran khan to Haseena wajid is a step in the right direction.
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It will change the rhetoric significantly. My brothers should try using the Islamophobia terminology and see the results for themselves. Muslims have been behaving so responsibly in Indian subcontinent for last 150 years that our case is extremely strong.

Islamophobia is a reality, and it is by design as well as part of western(christian) psyche. Hindus have been Islamophobic for their own reasons, some of them genuine. It must be hard for both of them to get rid of their phobias, and we will have to learn to live with it, moreover the ‘reaction’ of our youth to islamophobia is the driving force for our own rising resistance against this unjust campaign of hate, so it may even prove beneficial for us.Hate is one of the most powerful human instincts and to be a victim of hate gives rise to a reaction stronger than hate itself.My daughter was born on 10th of july, as a small child, when i jokingly suggested to her : ‘If you were born on 4th of july, your birthday would have coincided with the birthday of America’, she crisply responded :’ Why would i be borne on such a lousy date’.

This is the response of our youth to Islamophobia, and it will have long term consequences.
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And I agree that ultimately the things might boil down to ground level fight. But the way we have been behaving responsibly for last 150 years we still must take that attitude to the logical conclusion and complete the argument - Atmaam-e-Hujjat.

Agreed ,
We certainly don’t need to declare war before time, we need to silently keep preparing for it. الحرب خدعة (War is deception/trickery/stratagem)
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And in the process of our dialogue with the west somewhere we have to communicate to the individual countries that we are not looking for trouble and they should not be part of any actions detrimental to the interests of Muslim Ummah.

Quote:
Indeed many times I listen to Muslim commentators, particularly from Pakistan, I feel that we Muslims, by the Grace of Allah SWT, have a very good grip on the issues. Problem is gigantic, our detractors are not only ahead of us but do have better means and above all they are very united.


Quran tells us that Christians are being cursed with disunity, enmity and hatred between them, till the end of times. I agree, we can talk to them individually and we can use some of them against others. Their major concern is almost always ‘economy’.They will keep fighting with each other forever. I don't exactly remember the reference of ayat here, i may add it here later on (added, please see bottom of the post), but rest assured, their apparent unity is an illusion.
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And it is difficult to communicate to the Saffronite that we Muslims are fed up with their atrocities. And it is difficult to communicate to the liberal democrats in India that we are not part of the liberal democratic crowd but we are Muslims and that is different. We act as part of democracy because that is what we gladly accepted in 1947.

As i pointed out in one of my earlier posts, the extremists always end up challenging the government. History has proved it time and again. It is not easy to let go of power and the money which comes with it, hence at some stage the extremists find the regular government functioning as an obstacle between them and ‘total control of state authority’.

Please, wait patiently for the time when you will find Indian army chasing and crushing them. It will happen, because it has always happened in history...
————————————
P.S surah Maeda 5vs14 :

وَمِنَ الَّذِينَ قَالُواْ إِنَّا نَصَارَى أَخَذْنَا مِيثَاقَهُمْ فَنَسُواْ حَظّاً مِّمَّا ذُكِّرُواْ بِهِ فَأَغْرَيْنَا بَيْنَهُمُ الْعَدَاوَةَ وَالْبَغْضَاء إِلَى يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ وَسَوْفَ يُنَبِّئُهُمُ اللّهُ بِمَا كَانُواْ يَصْنَعُونَ

“ And with those who say, We are Christians, We made a covenant, but they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of, therefore We excited among them enmity and hatred to the day of resurrection; and Allah will inform them of what they did.”







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#22 [Permalink] Posted on 19th October 2019 16:38
Clement Attlee's Trickery - 1


In the story of culmination of India's struggle for independence we have the partition and creation of Pakistan.

And the blame has been slapped upon Muslims.

And the bill has been delivered to the Muslims of India.

Plus a carte blanche has been given to the majority community of India to have pot shots at Pakistan, Muslims in India as well as Bangladesh.

And all the nuances are lost in this gross analysis.

A narrative that is more nuanced and hence accurate has to be built.

The hard evidence has been accumulating on this issue ever since 1947 and the book by Seervai is fitting finale to that series of books.

But we Muslims have not taken due advantage of the revelations.

Let us try to fill this gap, beginning with the trickery of the then British Prime Minister Clement Attlee.
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