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Question for (Deobandi/Salafi) Muslims?

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#1 [Permalink] Posted on 5th September 2018 10:26

I was speaking to a friend recently and he has a high-level job where he to procure things for his organisation. The salesman for a vendor is “Jewish” and they both joke back and forth about “Muslim vs Jews” jokes in private.

Every few months the salesman comes in for a meeting and they negotiate millions of procurement and it gets heated, nasty, acrimonious, and uncomfortable and then the sale is finalised.

After the sale the Jewish guy said to him, “Khan! I am a Jew but fluffy teddy bear without eyes negotiated the hell out of this contract…Great job, congratulations….Are you sure that you are a Muslim or a Jew” and then go back to their normal (professional) relationship.

In my professional capacity, I disagree with someone on something few days a day and we discuss things back and forth and it is normal.

In my Islamic life, I have disagreed over minor things with Deobandees, my 7 year old daughter has been dragged into it, my mother (with cancer) has been brought into it…

The brothers asked me, “Why are Deobandees so sensitive over disagreements?”  I have never understood that either.

You have a disagreement over an issue, why do people make it affect every aspect of their lives? EVEN IF YOU HAVE A DISAGREEMENT with someone on a single aspect why does it permeate your entire existence?

Over disagreements people fall out, they leave, they cease communication, they block, they become sarcastic etc.

When people get personal with me, I get personal back (harder) as I don’t have a choice. What do you want me to do when my mother and my daughter are dragged into WhatsApp groups? It is the same set of indiviuals who do this from group to group, on Facebook and Social Media and I have never understood their reasons.

Why do Deobandees/Salafees get personal OR break off communication over disagreements?

Last year, a Maulana sent me a very sarcastic message so I called and asked him, “I have known you for over 15 years, give me a single incident where I have disrespected you or reacted to you in a sarcastic manner? Your message doesn’t bother me but I would like for you to explain to me as to why you did that? What went through your head? You have your views and I have my views (which are the views of your teacher, you disagree with your own teacher as well do you react in the same childish, sarcastic manner to him too???”

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#2 [Permalink] Posted on 5th September 2018 10:47
From experience, such people live a very confined life. They have not seen outside of the box. They feel like they are Kings/Queens of the Den, but when the doors of the Den open out to be a tiny matchbox, that's when they will realise there is much more to life than they thought.

Once they see that there is more to the globe than their small circle of "mates", they may come out of this state.

Ask yourself too, where you ever in such circles where Salafism was the only group on Haq and then found flaws in it because you opened the doors and saw out of the box?

We are stuck on this and find many Muslims doing the same all the time, but it happens to them in either case, be it from Deobandi or Salafi point of view.

Once out of the box, we get a new "breed" of a combination of educated & misled Muslims, but inshaAllah, the better will out-number the latter.
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#3 [Permalink] Posted on 5th September 2018 12:45
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Problem with the whole ummah regardless of maslak and creed is only one and that is Spiritual Immaturity.

It is my experience that like body we need spiritual muscles to develop patience, absorb anger and turn it into love. We need tazkiyah more than ever today. Yesterday a very knowledgeable elder linked with Tazkiyah told me that in the past ulema were only granted the sanad of dars e nizami, after they had had taken ijazah in tassawuf also. Today it's not the case. The secular education is only about material gains. Nothing about Ikhlaq, Morality, Spirituality and the life Here after. And deen is divided into fragments. Every institution thinking it to be the only service to Islam, becoming an isolated well. Where as every institution of deen is a brick of this magnificent palace.

Shaykh Khalid Abdus Sattar DB says [paraphrasing] that in previous times akhlaq and adab were also the part of fiqh books but now they aren't included in the fiqh any more.

I think this is the reason that we have lost our patience for difference of opinion.
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#4 [Permalink] Posted on 5th September 2018 12:50
Another thing is that, in general we have stopped reading books and engage so much on the internet and social media that we don't have any time left to gain true knowledge. This is also the reason why our scope of knowledge is so narrow and our depth of thought is so shallow.

Plus, people today are drowned in the virtual reality and have lost contact with the physical reality of life.

And, we have lost our contact with nature, which has made us artificial, plastic and robotic humans. Real humans are the spiritual deeni humans.
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#5 [Permalink] Posted on 5th September 2018 13:37

sipraomer wrote:
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Hmm...

If we were to take your analysis it would imply that Non-Muslims are more spiritually mature then Muslims so I am not sure. Its the same with throwing trash, Non-Muslims (in the West) don't throw trash everywhere but Muslims in their countries do so is it spiritual immaturity?


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#6 [Permalink] Posted on 5th September 2018 15:14
Of course this is a problem, fanboys often don't have anything better to do in their life so they take religion as if it were their own construction and are quick to shun/boycott/disparage anybody disagreeing with them.
One example is the nolife people that read this forum and report it back to .za to get a fatwa calling us coprocreeps, I mean why are people's life so boring they have to spy on muslims or even 'ulama ?

Some (if not most) kuffar have learned to judge according to the situation, whereas we judge an entire person by just one characteristic, we want to hate 110%, and this is wayy backward.
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#7 [Permalink] Posted on 5th September 2018 17:41
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Non Muslims have learned honesty, truth, discipline, unity and hard work from our elders. So yes, I would say that they are spiritually more mature in these aspects compared to us. That is why they are ruling. However, their concept of purpose of life in this world is delusional and their concept of human rights is faulty. Because of individualism, their family unit has been completely destroyed.

However, when they revert to Islam, the positive aspects of their character which they have acquired from the western civilization are polished to a greater extent. Thus, it is not untrue to conclude that revert Muslims are better than born Muslims and they have a higher degree of iman than us.

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#8 [Permalink] Posted on 5th September 2018 17:43
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A non Muslim may be spiritually more mature in the sense of having a better character. There is a hadith in which Rasoolullah (saw) said of a tribe when he heard about the nobility of their character, that they were only a grade lower than the ambiya عليهم السلام. Tazkiya is about nobility of character, about eliminating the razail (negative character traits) from one's personality. These character traits are picked up through suhbah (companionship).
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#9 [Permalink] Posted on 5th September 2018 18:00
There are some characteristics like truth, honesty, mercy, kindness which are universal in nature and not limited to any creed, religion, sect or theology.

Islam gives the complete package while other way of lives are partially beneficial.

A Hindu can be a good person who doesn't drink, smoke, commits fornication, lie. However, his aqeeda is incorrect. A Muslim's aqeedah can be correct , yet he can be an impatient, stupid and ill mannered person.

You my throw away my statement because I am not quoting a famous alim but I would nonetheless share it for the benefit of all.

My elder companion in dhikr majlis said that "A kafir can also attain Tazkiyah of nafs but he will not have the full benefits of that tazkiyah because of lack of iman. Baseerah comes through iman and iman is in qalb. ".

As another brother in another thread here , quoted that Tazkiya e Nafs is a separate thing and Tasfiyah e Qalb is a separate thing.

What I am trying to say is that , we lack discipline of soul and I blame our religious and secular education system for it.

Another point is that why is there bullying in educational institutions regardless of being secular or religious. Is there any subject called "Politeness, Kindness, Mercy, Akhlaq"?

I have also seen that even those who offer prayers regularly, are not punctual in their day to day chores. They arrive late in ceremonies and functions. In meetings and important gatherings. However, salah should have taught them discipline but they are practicing the outward form of limited foundational Islam. They are not ponderers. They are not spiritual. They are like donkies who have a load of books at their back. Information without understanding. Thought without depth.

This shallow understanding of the deen is the real culprit. Real Ulema are those who know inward and outward form of Islam and real training is that in which both of these sciences are taught (theoretically as well as practically).

I hope that I am making sense.
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#10 [Permalink] Posted on 5th September 2018 19:51
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The deficiency is probably in ‘training’...

Sipraomer wrote about tazkia,which can be translated as “training to get rid of bad manners and improve (keep improving) our conduct”.Whatever name is used for it,the basic thing remains the same. We have kept such training limited to khanaqah,the west is giving it in schools.Keeping the difference in our moral values in mind,they have structured their society according to their version of good conduct,we failed to do so...

Ego manifest itself in different ways,sometimes in the form of ‘over righteousness’ to the extent that one considers himself ‘defender of the faith’(rather the only one to do so),and take others as hypocrites and on batil if not frank kafir.

I agree with Sipraomer,we are used to take religion superficially.We rightly value aqeeda and we rightly focus on ibadaat,but do we focus on akhlaq,,our civic duties,our monitory dealings ? Sadly the answer is NO.We may regularly pray salat,do loads of Wazaif,wear Amama,keep beard...but we easily ignore to improve our conduct.

As is said :

کبھی بھول کر کسی سے ، نہ کرو سلوک ایسا
کہ جو تم سے کوئی کرتا ‘ تمہیں ناگوار ہوتا

( Never,even by mistake,behave with someone the way that if you are treated the same way, you are left offended and hurt)

Call it tasawwuf,tazkia or give it any other name you want,Islam teaches us ‘to worship Allah’ and ‘to keep fellow Muslims safe from the harm of our hands and our tongues’.

It may be easier to become Qutub and Abdal but is increasingly becoming difficult to become a good human being first :(
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#11 [Permalink] Posted on 5th September 2018 21:08

sipraomer wrote:
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ALIF wrote:
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In my experience, Sufees are the worst in the context of this thread in backbiting etc. Normal Muslims are decent by nature, try taking Bay't to a Shaykh and then leaving his company (no arguments etc), just leaving and you will find out what happens.
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#12 [Permalink] Posted on 6th September 2018 03:05
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However, the thing is that who are you calling a sufi? Fake one or the real one? A real sufi is he who is the best in akhlaq. Otherwise he is not a sufi but a circus shower, imposter and trickster.
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#13 [Permalink] Posted on 6th September 2018 03:08
Imam Malik (95 H. – 179 H.) “whoever studies Jurisprudence (tafaqaha) and didn’t study Sufism [tasawwafa] will be corrupted; and whoever studied Sufism and didn’t study Jurisprudence will become a heretic; and whoever combined both will reach the Truth.” [the scholar’Ali al-Adawi , vol. 2, p 195.)
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#14 [Permalink] Posted on 6th September 2018 03:56
1. Tazkiyah is not about ritualistic ibadah. It is about removing bad traits through mujahida. Mujahida is not only in muraqbah. But real mujahida demands physical actions which will lead to ijz and selflessness. Like cleaning toilets. This is where the strength of true tablighis lie. They go through these mujahidah. However, they can only benefit through these mujahidas in a complete sense if they also remain in the company of true aulia who will explain to them the purpose of these mujahidas. Because if you don't know the purpose, you may lose sight of the real goal and then that mujahida just remains a physical hardship without meaning and effect.

2. The duration of formal religious education of 8 years must be extended to 20 years. In it tazkiyah must be the part of the curriculum. Few genuine ulema are better than numerous empty molvis.

3. There must be a correct balance between books and practical. Instead of focusing on the correctness of Imam Abu Hanifa's maslak over other three Imams, focus should be on the practical side of Islam. I remember Dr.Israr Ahmed Rh quoting an incident of Shaykh Anwar Shah Kashmiri Rh where he was saddened at the end of his life that why did he spend all his life in defending the creed of Imam Abu Hanifa Rh where as in the grave it will not be asked that whether you did Rafay dain or not.

4. When there will be unrest in our souls, how can you expect that we can be tolerant of each other. When our approach is to prove the other party wrong instead of finding the truth, then how can there be any peace. This "I know it all" attitude is the culprit which makes one rigid in one's opinion. It is one thing to be right and completely another thing to make things right.

5. I have observed this thing that we have lost husn e zann. Many times, when I have asked sincere questions from some people, they started doubting my niyah and instead of answering me politely, they started to attack me. It is not necessary that the other person is saying a wrong thing on purpose. He can be genuinely ignorant of the right thing. For instance, I have seen deobandis criticizing Dr.Zakir Naik from left and right. However, I have also seen Maulana Tariq Jameel and Mufti Tariq Masood praising Zakir Naik for his service to Islam. Mufti Tariq does disagree with his fiqhi mistakes. However, he himself says that Dr.Zakir Naik has stopped indulging in fiqhi issues. We are too keen to find mistakes but have left seeing the positives in a person. This also leads to over criticism and rudeness in behavior. In short things are out of proportion and we are out of balance.

6. Finally, the ultimate problem is lack of genuine khilafah. It is in the interest of a secular state to let fake mullahs and hate speakers to thrive. Thanks to the fake ones that people start hating religion all together. This facilitates a state as without religious people there will be no demand for religious laws or Shariah to be implemented which is totally opposite to the secular nafs feeding civilization. So the main reason behind intolerance of awam is the intolerance of their respective religious leaders whom they follow. And khilafah is the only solution to remove those fake ones and install the genuine ones. Plus the environment of sin has blackened our souls which has resulted in hot temperedness. Low quality food has also played a role in it. Poor health also leads to intolerance. Technology also plays a part in it. Technology affects the way we interact with our environment. Today information is available at the tip of our fingers. Where as in previous times it required teachers and books. We are in the habit of doing things quickly. Fast travel, fast acquiring of information, fast food. Everything fast. This habit then reflects in the way we learn about deen also. Deen however, doesn't work this way. There is an arabic statement which roughly translates like this "If someone hugs knowledge quickly then knowledge will get annoyed at him." Means that if you try to study too much in little time, you will forget it quickly. Deen is a way of life which demands, gradual, careful, meticulous, sincere approach in regards to learning and practice.

When we are in the habit of hurrying too much then we can't understand the perspective of other people because we don't have time to listen to them and we have already made up our mind based upon our in accurate, skewed, incomplete and in comprehensive research. This as a result leads to intolerance.



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#15 [Permalink] Posted on 6th September 2018 06:03

Muadh_Khan wrote:
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It is difficult to give opinion on any substantial issue of personal kind just by knowing people on internet. That includes you and that includes me. I am not worried that much about this other person. Yet I still have a precaution to add. Never give people any power over you of any kind. They misuse it.

 
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