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#31 [Permalink] Posted on 21st June 2017 08:03

Abdur Rahman ibn Awf wrote:
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There are pockets of Indian Media who do highlight the issues with Kashmir.

Nevertheless, if you read my point carefully what I am saying is that Dr Zakir Naik and IRF have the expertise and resources to CUT THROUGH the Media Bias…Or let me rephrase the ability to cut through with a coherent strategy.

Ordinary Indian Muslims and the “Hazrats” don’t.

Instead of fighting for Justice for the common Indian Muslim, the coward decided to flee and leave his companions in the lurch to face the same legal system and hostile Media which you are referring to.

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#32 [Permalink] Posted on 21st June 2017 09:12
Bismillah
Though I understand your point, I have to say the western judicial system is far better than the Indian one and can't be really compared. I don't think India cares for its reputation or else they won't involve in lynching muslims and other minorities for consuming beef. This would sound very silly and inhuman to kill a human for consuming beef in western perspective. Almost all killed were based on false accusation. If India feels ashamed of atrocities in Kashmir, it would have stopped the atrocities but kashmir is abandoned by everyone including the west. No one really cares for them. As far as the judicial system, I hope you remember a Muslim doctor from Bangalore, India was falsely accused in bomb case in UK and he was arrested in Australia. When he was found innocent, the Australian govt apologized and released him. One of the popular tamil magazine quoted that incident saying, the doctor should be lucky that he was tried in Australia as he got released and if it is in India, he would be spending years in jail without proper trial. The crooked judicial system won't even bother to apologize. People won't raise up and they are used to live with it. Muslims won't know what to do and they too will live with it. That is what is happening in India. Even though we know and see open oppression, we don't do much and we do not know what to do except running to courts where they extent it to years.

I don't think any case abroad can be compared with the case in India. Openly atrocities are committed against not just minorities but even against students in universities. This should be a very shameful situation in an international point of view but when the govt doesn't care about its reputation in all this and even public is not doing anything against it, we can't expect much.

I personally feel it is not cowardice to return to India but stupidity to return. If his money could really help, why his associates are still in Jail? if they cannot be saved by money, how would he be saved? It is a very unfortunate thing that his associates are stuck in this country and they are facing the trials. Allahu alam

This whole democracy and secularism are all lies. People are just ruled by tyrants. Whatever little democracy is found is not helping anyone but only sucks people's time and energy. There should be some sort of revolution against all this atrocities against Muslims but how to do it, I do not know. When ISIS came up, some Muslims thought it would be a great to join such an organization to fight against the oppression but that turned out to be very unislamic. It shows how muslims are thirsty to fight against oppression but as there was no proper guidance, it yielded a big loss to the ummah. I feel bad for those Muslims involving in unislamic acts while thinking they are doing right. When some Muslims involve in bombing and killing innocents, ulema come up against them to the extent of propagating to not even pray funeral prayer for them but they fail to show them the right path to fight against the oppression and injustice. I wish they show this much zeal to properly guide the Muslims. So common Muslims are just living with it. Majority of Indian Muslims are hanafis. Down south there are salafis. When oppression upon oppression is happening, we look forward to Deoband if they will guide us and issue any statement for Muslims about dealing with such situations. I don't see anything like that. When ulema say bombing innocents is wrong, they should an alternate way. Ulema should stand up to guide or else emotions can push some muslims to do wrong acts while leaving the most Muslims in fear.

Sorry if it is off topic. But I don't believe in all this judicial system. It is not wise for Zakir or anyone to return to this country with the hope that they would be tried fairly. I don't even think India would care for its reputation. As far as Muslims, We can't expect any media or anyone to help us when we don't stand up for ourselves. But how we are going to do that, that can be answered only by the knowledgeable and responsible people. Allahu alam

Only Allah SWT can guide us and bring us out of the humiliating state we are in. Ameen
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#33 [Permalink] Posted on 21st June 2017 10:06
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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Quote:

The reason I disagree with you is that Muslim Media, political activism and legal affairs falls far behind the standards what is required. Dr Zakir Naik and IRF have the resources and the know-how to actually take on the Indian Government and tell their side of the story (even if it’s a sham trial) which I don’t believe it will be.

With access to Peace TV and its resources, they could try to cut through the Media fog and try to put their side of the story to the masses.

India has a great tradition of good investigative Journalism and Indian people feast on investigations and expositions.

The “Hazrats” and the “Maulanas” don’t have the ability to take on the Indian Government and Media machine but Dr Zakir Naik and IRF does.

Instead of actually fighting this battle for the Indian Muslims, the coward has cut and run![/quote]
I am questioning the accuracy of your assessment in this regard.
Was there a fair trial in Hashimpura case?
Mufti Qayyum spent 11 years behind bars for no fault - on trumped charges of terrorism.
Gulzar Wani, a boy from my university, was picked up from the campus 17 years ago when present Vice President of India was the Vice Chancellor. Last month he came out because nothing was proved in the court against him. Did he get a fair deal? He is fully grown man by now into bad years of life.
There is article (either 22 or 28) of Indian constitution where you can propagate you religion amongst Indian people. Christians went to court using that in case of conversions where Christian missionaries were under legal threat. You know what the Judge ruled in the court? He said that you can convert people to your religion only if there is no fear of public outrage. What does it mean? Don't you know that Hindu outrage can always be cooked up?
Please, please get connected with the fast changing ground reality.
There is no law against beef but can you not see all the havoc that is taking place because of beef, cow?
Things were not cozy-cozy even before May 16, 2014.
Today these are even worse.
When I say that Dr Zakir Naik is wrong to assume that he might be tortured in the custody then I am mrely fine tuning my assessment of the ground level legal situation.
The moment Dr Zakir Naik lands in custody his welcome will not be of the same level as Lalu Yadav or Mayawati under house arrest. Nor perhaps he will be like Ajmal Kasab in custody. But my fears are that his situation will be closer to latter than formers. I suspect that his situation will be like that of Mufti Abdul Qawi Sahab DB of Hyderabad. I have not got an opportunity to talk to Mufti Sahab but my close friends were telling terrible things - I hope the reports are not authentic.

Quote:

And we have giant intellectuals like Maripat Saheb defending the coward simply on Nationalism.[/quote]
I repeat - he might lack the courage that you are demanding of him but coward he is not.
And what is this about Nationalism?
Quote:
I don’t think that the Indian state is impenetrable
I don’t think that the Indian legal system is as shambolic and corrupt as you two are making it out to be.
[/quote]
Watch this. watch closely the expression on Karan Thapar's face when he realizes what has happened. This was much before Modi became the PM. After he became the PM I can not tell you how damn scared even the secular liberal democrats have become. You perhaps are not paying attention to what I have been saying in the India Diary thread. I can assure you that I find my personal courage at the all time peak but I have no intention of landing with a thud without making an iota of difference to the state of the believers residing in India or elsewhere. Your enthusiasm is infectious and and your sentiments were honourable and very dear to my heart but you have to cool down a bit.


Quote:
I am not saying it because I believe Indians are great harbingers of justice, fairness and equality BUT because India wants to project itself on a global scale to be a developed country…Each scandal hits Indian ambitions that much harder…Kashmir and human right abuses are an embarrassment for Indian (image), not to their sense (of right and wrong).[/quote]
My brother you got it wrong.
Did you read this piece by Barkha Dutt in the Washington Post? I had linked it earlier. It was on my screen for two weeks. Read it now. India does not care about world opinion any more. And my brother Barkha Dutt is no RSS bigot.
[quote]
There are miscarriages of justice in any system and it takes resources but importantly courage to stand your ground and fight it.

I can not be upset with you because you are not committing gross mistakes. These are the mistakes of fine tuning and we do commit them all the time. Unfortunately the mistakes in the cases that we are discussing have huge repercussions. So kindly hold on your guns and relax a bit.

[quote]
The episode with Dr Zakir Naik is sowing the seeds of despondency in the Indian Muslims. If people like Maripat Saheb think Dr Zakir Naik and IRF have no chance in today’s India it’s a truly low moment for Indian Muslims.

Worst times are perhaps the best opportunities. But the episodes in history when people should best courage in worst times are rare. Fortunately such events in Islamic history are rather regular. I feel honoured that you consider me in that league. I am also overwhelmed by your love. I also will not bore you to death by telling you how lonely I find myself in my immediate environment. Apart from myself I know only one more example in the larger Alig community who has not completely surrendered mentally to the fascist forces operating in India.

Yet I can not push Dr Zakir Naik to the noose or less. that is his decision. I do not concur with his assessment and I also agree that he should have faced the music head on but I can not push him to it.

Indeed it is all time low for Indian Muslims and I am ashemd to be part of it but I have neither sumbitted nor quit.

[quote]Instead of arguing, all Indian Muslims reading this should logoff and start packing to leave the country.

I am painfully aware that this is impractical, as impractical as it was in 1947.

On individual level I can assure that I am not going to leave.

[quote]Maripat Saheb,

You disappoint me.

I thought an ALIG would be looking to take on the system and even dent it (for the next fighter to dent it further), even if not defeat or crumble it. How can an ALIG defend a coward who ran away without a fight?

Your thoughts are very disappointing to me.

Instead of giving hope and courage to millions of Indian Muslims, you are actually submitting to a crooked system, admitting that you are powerless to fight it.

I am extremely disappointed. An ALIG is supposed to rail against the system, fight it, resist it, not cower down in fear and admit defeat.

I am an Alig to the core and I have the intention to remain so ya akhi-al-aziz.
At the moment I am honoured to take your disappointment has a mark of your deepest love.
Whether I prove to be worthy of your high regards and love is something that I have to leave to my Lord Most High.

Unfortunately the current state of Aligarian spirit is more apparent to me than anyone residing away from us and I am once again ashamed to admit that it is not in a very good state.


I am working twenty four hours a day and seven days a week to restore this spirit to its pristine state but my success till today stays close to cypher.
Abdur Rahman ibn Awf wrote:
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Quote:

So Bro Maripat speaking up and then getting himself locked up, on trumped up charges is going to give hope and courage to millions.?

You said it ya akhi.
Though I am reaching that age in which Rasoolallah SAW's Madani life began but I am just a fake and duplicate follower of beloved Prophet SAW. And Khan Sahab is really scaring me because if he himself resorts to the kind of options that he is advocating for me and Dr Zakir Naik then I too shall be left with no option but to follow suit. Khan Sahab's enthusiasm is infectious, charming, endearing and full of Ikhlas but I can not allow him to go out of control.

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#34 [Permalink] Posted on 21st June 2017 15:19

Maripat wrote:
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Mufti Qayyum or Gulzar Wani are vastly different to Dr Zakir Naik & IRF. To begin with neither of them have Assets worth in excess of millions of Dollars. Neither of them ran a TV channel.

Neither of them had a global (following) where their case could be amplified.

My point to both of you is that you cannot compare Dr Zakir Naik (& IRF) to a Maulana (no matter how big of a Shaykh he is)…Even Maulana Sajjad Noumani (HA)is not Dr Zakir Naik in the context which I am talking about.

This is just money and reach (through Media).

Thirdly, Dr Israr Ahmed (RA) mentioned the massive political and bureaucratic reach of Dr Zakir Naik where his VISA (being a Pakistani citizen) were approved and extended without a problem in Delhi by Dr Zakir Naik making a few phone calls (it’s on record).

Then its global Governments like the Saudees and Emiratees who will clearly amplify his case.

All in all, you cannot compare Dr Zakir Naik to any ordinary (Indian) citizen and that is the whole point of my argument.

Dr Zakir Naik (even while in Jail) can have access to millions to be pumped into a legal fund to hire the most awesome crack team to fight this tooth and nail! An ordinary Indian cannot.

Instead the coward ran away!

Even if he would have lost, he should have stood his ground in his “best democracy of the world, India”

Instead the fleeing by the coward has solidified the idea in the minds of Indians (like you) that their circumstances are hopeless.

The legal trial of Moazzam Baig and others have given great comfort to British Muslims, they know now they if they get targeted they can fight this and they will fight.

Coward has simply ran away with his tail between his legs!

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#35 [Permalink] Posted on 21st June 2017 16:09
Bismillah
Well your post now makes some sense to me. Maybe he could have fought the battle but as an ordinary Muslim, when I think of all this legal battle against the most biased ruling party, it brings down shiver on me. I have no faith in Indian judicial system as much as you do. You think money and saudi's support will be a tremendous help and I can say maybe if Allah SWT wills. Allahu alam
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#36 [Permalink] Posted on 21st June 2017 16:19

Umm Khadeejah wrote:
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You as an ordinary Indian citizen with limited financial resources, no Media reach and no backing to raise funding have no chance.

You only have access to your personal savings and property.

Dr Zakir Naik and IRF have millions in (existing) resources and vast Media reach.

Let’s suppose Indian Government due to Terrorism legislation shuts down all existing Assets. You are not a brand (who knows Umm Khadeejah) so even if we start funding for your legal team it will take a miracle to get your name and case out there.

I know the campaign for Dr Aafia Siddiqui (who has now become a global brand).

Even if somehow Umm Khadeejah campaign becomes public you just have money but no Media presence.

Dr Zakir Naik and IRF can raise millions (while still in Jail) and leverage Muslim Media (worldwide) disproportionally amplifying his campaign. He actually has a chance against Indian Media, you don’t.

Its simple point that Professor Maripat Saheb is not getting.

Gandhi and others gave symbolic arrests against the British? Why? Did they know that they will be set free? No! It was to raise public awareness and profile.

The coward Dr Zakir Naik only considered his own Sorry self and ran away instead of looking at the whole issue with Indian Muslims.

Why? Because he was never loyal to the cause of Indian Muslims to begin with!

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#37 [Permalink] Posted on 21st June 2017 16:52
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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Dr Zakir Naiks International profile means that any trial will be welcomed with glee by the global Zionist Media...They will be in a Frenzy they will have already convicted him in the press. They need a new Muslim villain to help sell their news papers. I think Dr Naik, will fit the bill perfectly and will also give the opportunity to the likes of British and other western Governments bring in legislation to target normative Islam in the guise of tackling the threat of so-called "Non Violent extremists".

It does not matter how much money he has him getting a fair crack or coverage Zero , Zilch, Nada. You could grab a random vegetable seller from Calcutta with a beard and put him on trial on trumped up charges, and the international Zionists will have him convicted in the court of public opinion before you could say boo.

Zakir Naik will be able to get his message across because he has Peace TV, who is he going to get his message out to? The powerless viewers of Peace TV.

And what benefit will that bring?

Saudi Arabia and UAE is going to stand up for him... Come on be serious.

Look I get it You have a deep hatred of Zakir Naik and want to see him imprisoned...



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#38 [Permalink] Posted on 21st June 2017 16:53
Bismillah
I agree but still we cant accuse him to be disloyal right?
He may not be thinking as you. He might have been advised to stay back. Allahu alam
I understand you are seeing a bigger picture which i failed to see in the beginning. Maybe none explained this aspect to Dr.Zakir. Allahu alam
The end result as i see from your eyes looks great for indian muslims.
Still it would be a great sacrifice on his part and if he denies taking this step, we cant blame him as it is his right. None can compel him unless he sees a broader picture by himself and decides to do so. It would still need courage as he is a human. Allahu alam
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#39 [Permalink] Posted on 21st June 2017 18:52
Abdur Rahman ibn Awf wrote:
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Bismillah

Well you made some very valid points.
Whatever be the case I still don't find it justified to hate Dr.Zakir Naik so much.
It is his right to go through the legal process or abandon it.
These days we can't trust any media as the media on enemies side is too strong to penetrate. Relying just on peace TV wont be of much help as it is mostly viewed only by muslims who are weak again.
Yes if countries like saudi can stand by him, there can be some hope Allah willing but we do not know if they will really stand for a single person as they have abandoned ummah when worst fell on them. Will saudi stand for one Zakir Naik? Will Saudi use its media? How strong their media is against the international media of enemies? Good questions.

Though I do not know how feasible it is, I can understand the points brother Muaadh is making. l don't know if Dr.Zakir can trigger a movement like Gandhi by opting for jail. One has to be too optimistic about this and unfortunately a person like me is not that confident about such a move but we never know. The one point I can stand by is we cannot blame Zakir Naik if he decided not to submit himself to indian judicial system. I plainly don't trust judicial system in the hands of worst enemies. Allahu alam
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#40 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd June 2017 00:24
Maripat wrote:
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Mujaddid... ????

So you like him so much..
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#41 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd June 2017 08:10

Abdur Rahman ibn Awf wrote:
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Again, you have missed an important distinction which I am making. Even if his existing Assets and Peace TV is shut down he still has the global profile to raise funds and fight this (injustice).

You see conspiracy in every single matter but I don’t understand why you don’t see any collusion in the case of Saudi Arabia who has been blatantly supporting Zionism and its plans since 1926. Strange, but o well.

I don’t want to see ay Muslim incarcerated (because I know what it’s like) but I would like to see (prominent) Muslims stand up and support the injustices which are being inflicted on common Muslims.

Dr Zakir Naik did a lot of damage to the cause of Indian Muslims by stoking flames of communalism and sectarianism, took the money of the Muslims and then fled like a coward.

There is no other way to spin it.

Again, it’s unfair to compare a vegetable seller to Dr Zakir Naik because he isn’t. If the Indian state can target him (due to his high profile) then he can also bring a crack legal team to defend it.

The point is that all these Indian Muslims who are so proud of their country, so proud of their democracy are now claiming that their beloved democracy doesn’t give them any chance to be represented legally….In my mind it’s a very despondent view for millions of Muslims who have nowhere to escape.

Dr Zakir Naik could have stood his ground, fought this but as his background is divisive this is exactly the kind of cowardice I expected.

You see conspiracies in everything but you see nothing in the behaviour of Dr Zakir Naik and the protection of Saudi Arabia, I find that rather disingenuous. I am not supporting the conspiracy but just surprised at your clean of Health to this issue.

I look at the facts and my knowledge of the facts on the ground about Dr Zakir Naik and IRF leads me to believe that this person was corrosive, divisive, communal and sectarian. His sideshows on TV are not what meets the eyes (according to eye witness Accounts) and not by merely peddling of conspiracy theories. 

I understand that Nationalism and loyalty runs deep in Indian Muslims and they are trying to defend one of their own but this guy has actually done enormous damage to the cause of Indian Muslims and then fled!

Umm Khadeejah wrote:
View original post

Because we don’t fight for name and fame, we do our best sincerely for the sake of Allah Ta’ala for our Brothers and Sisters who cannot defend themselves.

If death comes our way in our cause then we embrace it.

When you read about Moazzam Baig or speak to him, you will know the reasons for some to things he did (and does). Also read about Muhammad Rabbani

5pillarsuk.com/2017/05/16/muhammad-rabbani-i-will-risk-pr...

You are all defending a coward who ran away with his tail between his legs instead of standing up and defending the common Indian Muslim.

Of all of you, I am most disappointed in Professor Maripat Saheb who thinks of a divisive, communal, sectarian coward to be almost divine.

When will you Indian Muslims wake up and distinguish your friends from foes? When will you wake up and get the point that those who divide you along communal, sectarian lines do damage to your communities?

Whether it’s RSS or Dr Zakir Naik like individuals, you all need to wake up!

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#42 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd June 2017 10:39
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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Quote:

Again, you have missed an important distinction which I am making. Even if his existing Assets and Peace TV is shut down he still has the global profile to raise funds and fight this (injustice).[/quote]
May be. But in India the incidents of a high profile Muslim raising millions for his legal defence are unheard of particularly when the charges are going to be in the nature of sedition.

Quote:
You see conspiracy in every single matter but I don’t understand why you don’t see any collusion in the case of Saudi Arabia who has been blatantly supporting Zionism and its plans since 1926. Strange, but o well.[/quote]
Muslims are getting a raw deal in India for long and especially now. It is not a conspiracy theory.
The conspiracy theory is that Dr Zakir Naik is in collusion with the Saudis to undo Indian Muslims.
Saudis have been behaving badly but Dr Zakir Naik's issue can be discussed without introducing the Saudi complication. Please do that.
Quote:
I don’t want to see ay Muslim incarcerated (because I know what it’s like) but I would like to see (prominent) Muslims stand up and support the injustices which are being inflicted on common Muslims.[/quote]
We understand that and I agree with your assessment. I diasgree with your Daleel.
Quote:
Dr Zakir Naik did a lot of damage to the cause of Indian Muslims by stoking flames of communalism and sectarianism, took the money of the Muslims and then fled like a coward.[/quote]
I can not agree with these sentiments. In case these are being presented as facts then too I reject them. Salafis are usually partisan and Dr Zakir Naik is no exception but to assert that his sectarianism overshadows his Dawah efforts does not get my vote.

But if the brothers and sisters at MS do come to the conclusion that Dr Zakir Naik's harms exceed his benefits then I shall go along with the collective wisdom. Till then my view is that his Dawah efforts are genuine and his benefits exceed his harms.
Quote:

Again, it’s unfair to compare a vegetable seller to Dr Zakir Naik because he isn’t. If the Indian state can target him (due to his high profile) then he can also bring a crack legal team to defend it.[/quote]
I have said it several times earlier that I too do not agree with Dr Zakir Naik's assessment that he might get tortured in custody and I also agree that his financial resources might see him one day, sooner or later, exonerated.

But the situation is certainly not so bright as brother Muadh Khan has conjured up. Newspapers widely reported that the goverment has used very obscure clauses of the constitution and the Indian Penal Code to suffocate the sources of the funding of Dr Zakir Naik's NGO. That a red corner notice of Interpol has been issued against him clearly shows the intentions of the government. Not a single secular or liberal democrat has raised his or her voice in dr Naik's favour. No tweet from Shashi Tharoor, Teesta Seetalwad, Arundhati Roy nor any statement from Sonia Gandhi in spite of the fact that Dr Naik has denied every single charge levelled against him and those who have been following his videos know that he has not done even a single offence whose charges are being slapped on him.
Quote:

The point is that all these Indian Muslims who are so proud of their country, so proud of their democracy are now claiming that their beloved democracy doesn’t give them any chance to be represented legally….In my mind it’s a very despondent view for millions of Muslims who have nowhere to escape.[/quote]
Here and at several other places brother Muadh Khan is coming too close to ad hominem. This is really sad. At least in our discussions with each other we should keep a semblance of objectivity. Nevertheless since the above quoted segment is directed against me let me say it in black and white that I am no more nationalist than allowed by Islam, I am no more proud of democracy than allowed by Islam.

I also admit that Indian judicial system has been excellent and it has served Indian Muslims too very well but there have been monumental failures and in the present day we can not blame Dr Zakir Naik completely for his assessment because there have been enough episodes of people being put to injustice by delayed judgements. And, pray, why shall we not bring those episodes into discussion? It is not comparison of apple and oranges. we are comparing apples with apples. If Mufti Qasim can be incarcerated for 11 years for no fault, Gulzar wani for 17 years, Mufti Abdul Qawi Sahab DB for months than Dr Zakir Naik too would end up in custody for no fault of his own. Muadh Khan's argument in this regard is disingenuous.
Quote:
Dr Zakir Naik could have stood his ground, fought this but as his background is divisive this is exactly the kind of cowardice I expected.

There is a bais against him in this statement. As I have said above his partisanship, in my view, is not that excessive to warrant a negative disposition towards him.
[quote]
I look at the facts and my knowledge of the facts on the ground about Dr Zakir Naik and IRF leads me to believe that this person was corrosive, divisive, communal and sectarian. His sideshows on TV are not what meets the eyes (according to eye witness Accounts) and not by merely peddling of conspiracy theories.

Your hunch could certainly be sharper than ours but at the moment I do not see anyone agreeing with you. may be you can give it another shot to explain to us.

It is true that money he might be receiving will be for corrosive, divisive and sectarian purposes but is he primarily indulging in that? My view is in the negative. Communalism is a word that is used in India for Hindu-Muslim hateful sentiments so I find that word misplaced here.

[quote] I understand that Nationalism and loyalty runs deep in Indian Muslims and they are trying to defend one of their own but this guy has actually done enormous damage to the cause of Indian Muslims and then fled!

Khan Sahab is using this for the fourth time and by now this is painful. It was painful everytime he used this accusation. What wrong have we done to you? Why can you not keep a check on your sentiments and emotions? You are not exactly in your teens. Please stay on ground facts. Your Hijrah from pakistan to the west could not have been because of religious reasons so your nationalism is not more shallow than ours. Kindly do not bring these distractions into the discussion.

Dr Zakir Naik is obviously a Salafi and the Salafis have been irritating us a lot and because of that it is hard work to love him. Then you come in and through wild allegations. Please cut it.

[quote]You are all defending a coward who ran away with his tail between his legs instead of standing up and defending the common Indian Muslim.

I do not know how many times I have to repeat that though Dr Zakir Naik not facing the music betrays a certain lack of courage but calling him coward is patently unjust and unfortunate.

The world is unfavourably disposed towads Islam and Muslims. India at present is worse - it disposed against Muslims. Dr Zakir Naik is face to face with this stark reality. I doubt that he is in for immediate hanging.

When Haji Abdur Rashid Ghazi RA was holed up in Lal Masjid Mufti Rafi Usmani Sahab and some other senior Ulama went to Islamabad for last day eeforts to find an amicable solution to the stalemate. But Mufti rafi Usmani sahab and others did not go inside the Lal Masjid. Why? Because, if not the people holed up there, the security forces might have targetted them and killed them. This too is there on You Tube.

This is precisely the type of situation that Dr Zakir Naik faces. Dr Naik is just a Dayee - not a popular leadr who should be pushed to take risk.

[quote]Of all of you, I am most disappointed in Professor Maripat Saheb who thinks of a divisive, communal, sectarian coward to be almost divine.

I mostly do not demand those things from people that I myself am not capable.
In case of Dr Naik's situation I have made it amply clear that the risk is being over estimated by him. But how can I judge his own mental strength in face of the negative environment prevalent in India?

[quote]When will you Indian Muslims wake up and distinguish your friends from foes? When will you wake up and get the point that those who divide you along communal, sectarian lines do damage to your communities?

Sectarian division is relevant here but not the primary issue. If Deoband had taken a positive attitude towards Dawah to non-Muslims, towards Maulana Rahmatullah Kairanwi RA and Dr Wazir Khan then we would have got a Dayee or two of our own and then we would not have been looking towards Dr Zakir Naik with so much of longings as we do now. Our own man, Kalim Siddiqui of Phulat, is a poor copy in comparison.

I attribute no divinity to Dr Zakir Naik. He lacks even in spirituality. But then again I can not eat spirituality when I need Dawah.
[quote]Whether it’s RSS or Dr Zakir Naik like individuals, you all need to wake up!

May be one day Dr Zakir Naik will prove as detrimental to Islam as RSS. At the moment I find the comparison Odius
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#43 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd June 2017 11:30

Maripat wrote:
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This is similar to the argument about Terrorism in UK and the arguments with Brother Abdur-Rahman.

In Manchester Didsbury Mosque is well known and the son of the Muadhin (potentially and allegedly) commits an act of Terrorism. Imam, community members come forward and testify that something was indeed wrong with the boy.

Brother Abdur-Rahman put forth a youtube video about Agent Provocateurs. I submit that it’s easy to get down to Manchester, do some investigation and try to get to the bottom of this issue.

Now get to you.

You are based in India and it’s easy for you to do ground research about the personality of Dr Zakir Naik and IRF. Instead of doing research and analysis, you stick to your guns and claim that Dr Zakir Naik wasn’t communal, divisive or sectarian, on what grounds? How many people have you spoken to in Mumbai about what this organisation and this School was doing?

Where is both of your ground analysis of an issue? NOT GENERALISATIONS but actual research and analysis of the issue.

All you both are offering is generalisations and bucking the opportunity to do direct research.

My stance is not based on sectarianism because in the past few days we have been discussing two “Ghair-Muqallid” personalities i.e. Dr Zakir Naik and Dr Israr Ahmed (RA)…If I was biased on had hatred based on Maslak then would’t stance be identical for both of them?

In Fiqh they were both the same YET I am labelling Dr Zakir Naik as corrosive, divisive, communal and sectarian. I am using BJP as an example, of course RSS and Dr Zakir Naik are not the same (from a Muslim perspective) but from a principled stance they are similar (i.e. both stoke fires of differences to advance personal agenda).

Dr Zakir Naik’s Dawah is not what it seems.

On one hand Brothr Abdur-Rahman advises me to not to take the testimony of Imam of Didsbury Mosque and community members on face value (on the issue of Terrorism) and YET both of you expect me to take a TV personality on face value?

How bizarrely inconsistent???

Peace TV was a highly orchestrated TV stunt and Dr Zakir Naik’s prowess were choreographed as they are for Christian TV (evangelists). I have done my research, I have done my analysis and I am certain of it.

You two on the other hand have done nothing but issues conjecture and hypothesis.

This is my last response on the thread…Keep my making general points, my input on this thread is NOT GENERAL and SPECIFIC.

I don’t watch youtube and make up my mind. Yes youtube videos open up my mind to possibilities but I would like to get actual first-hand knowledge before I offer conjecture. I may be wrong as I am human after all and I may make mistakes but at least I try to get the facts on the ground before advancing a theory.

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#44 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd June 2017 12:11
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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Actually this was the thread, Muadh Khan is referring to www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2...

People can see for themselves what I wrote exactly..... If you wish to revisit that thread I am more then happy to defend, debate and discuss my position.



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#45 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd June 2017 12:27
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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Quote:
Where is both of your ground analysis of an issue? NOT GENERALISATIONS but actual research and analysis of the issue.

All you both are offering is generalisations and bucking the opportunity to do direct research.[/quote]

When Zakir Naik was just coming up me and a student of mine had very extensive exchange of emails with a close associate of him. I was not impressed either with the intellectual depth or the spiritual sublimeness of the company. As the things later on unfolded about the Salafis I was also left irritated by their stupid superiority complex - not Dr Naik but Salafis. Then a Shaikh and Mufti from Mumbai gave me some input from our own people living in the same building as Dr Zakir Naik. These reports were negative about Dr Naik's practice of Islam. Yet these did not change my attitude for the worse towards Dr Naik. On the contrary I was irked by our own Muftis and Ulama being negatively disposed towards any thing that is not Deobandi. I hope tomorrow you do not classify me as anti-Deobandi. After that the Yazid controversy erupted and Barelwis-Deobandis created heat. In the whole process I did not get negative vibes about him. Maulana Salman Hussaini Nadwi participated in his programme and publicly criticized him for dabbling in Fiqh issues and advised him to abstain from that.

After that I admit that I did generalize and assumes that apart from his Salafi leanings Dr Zakir Naik is alright. Why can I not be wrong? I can be. I simply do not have the data to down grade his stature in my views.

When you claim to know more about him then I shall take your view too at face value - I shall not deny it. But without the actual evidence at my disposal I can not trash Dr Naik. This will not be Islamic.

[quote]Dr Zakir Naik’s Dawah is not what it seems.


Again you perhaps are speaking on the basis of some info to which you are privy but in absence of it I can not ignore the fact that Dr Naik is shut out of his home and home country. That is a scarifice and it was he who took the risk. Even if he is getting big bucks for his Dawah work it remains Dawah.

I do not buy the view that Dr Naik is availing luxury. Having got Saudi citizenship he applied for Malayasian citizenship. Why/ My guess is that he is missing the freedom he had in India. This points towards uneasiness and not luxury.

I can not relate to UK experiences for I have not lived there but I can relate to Indian experience.

I trashed and dumped Kalim Siddiqui when Maulana Salman Hussaini Nadwi exposed him. After pondering for some years I have come to the conclusion that I can not work with Mr Siddiqui but I can also not deny the fact that Kalim Siddiqui is indeed a Dayee.

What Dr Zakir Naik has done is very significant in the worldview that I find myself mapping. What evidence you have with you will certainly have important bearing on what I conclude from the scenario now. Thus whether you comment on this issue further or not either way this thread goes into a limbo.

Deoband has the responsibility to communicate Islam to Hindus of India. It is not Aligarh's responsibility. Deoband did not do anything on this front. Dr Zakir Naik did. Now you say that his Dawah is not what it looks. I trust you but then I too am left in a learch.
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