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Islamic Revolution in Turkey: Lessons

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#16 [Permalink] Posted on 19th April 2017 16:20
mkdon101 wrote:
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Respected brother as salamu alaikum

Thats a questions as he may lay all the foundation but it is in the end Turks selecting their leader . The old system i agree has weaknesses such as military could step again under " protecting our secular values" but the new system also allows the President to have all the power which is also not good. You have to think of the future as well. We have no doubt Erdogan will make Islamic reforms but what if in 2019 election Turks choose secular person? 51 yes and 49 no isnt a huge difference
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#17 [Permalink] Posted on 19th April 2017 19:08
AishaZaynap wrote:
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that is my point exactly. if you look at most despot leaders they have such a strangehold of everthing that even when they are gone and a good person takes over all the major offices and people in power still follow their example. sisi is just a continuation of mubarak. mubarak had such a tight grip that all the major officials and agencies had same views as him so when mursi came he was easily undermined.

on the flip side rasoolullah (saw) had made such men and put so much focus on his people that despite him passing away his message continued to grow even after abu bakr رضي الله عنه and umar رضي الله عنه died. i accetp using sahaba is not a fair example as thye where such exemplary people but you get the idea. there was a program on bbc 2 last week about turkey. it showed how erodgan has invested billions into islamic education and muslim identity. i think persoanlly ones this generation goes the next few in turkey will all be more islamafied.
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#18 [Permalink] Posted on 19th April 2017 20:07
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Respected brother i see your point and i also see your optimism but this is a naive statement. Ataturk founder of Turkey took small steps but powerful ones. Erdogan hasnt taken such big steps as Ataturk did. Plus Ataturk effected how Turks thought. His principles are reproducing in Turkish schools. It has decreased but it is still present in the Turkish education system. The media and secular play a part in the glorification of Ataturk and his principles. It takes more than next future generation to overcome it
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#19 [Permalink] Posted on 19th April 2017 21:18
I admit apart from going to Turkey for a few days as a tourist I'm not sure how it is run on a day to day basis. I've been told by turks that he has brought an Islamic ethos in all schools and children are taught Islam and taught about heroes like sultan Mehmet at fatih رضي الله عنه but I take your word over mine as I'm not in a position to talk about turkey too much. It's just he seems like a clear guy and having been there for almost a decade I'm sure he has made backup and long term plans.
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#20 [Permalink] Posted on 19th April 2017 21:56
AishaZaynap wrote:
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I was under the impression this referendum applies only to his rule...and if any future leader comes to power that he would need to have a fresh referendum.

If it applies to any leader for the next 15 years, then it sounds very problematic...!

I personally cant see him surviving the next 15 years the western countries and their agents in Turkey will be doing their best to remove him, by hook or by crook.

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#21 [Permalink] Posted on 20th April 2017 09:34
I am thankful to sister Aisha for giving us the view as seen from inside.
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#22 [Permalink] Posted on 20th April 2017 10:07

Sister is raising a very important point. In the past Ataturk was able to railroad “reforms” by being an autocrat against the will of the people.

Erdogan is also expanding his powers and curtailing checks and balances (be it his intentions may be good).

What is to prevent another dubious person using these powers for actions contrary to Islam? Hence my questioning the implications for someone like Narendra Modi having similar powers.

In an Islamic Caliphate there is a system of checks and balances which is the Qadhiul-Qudha (Chief Justice) who can reprimand the caliph, investigate corruption etc.

Independent Judiciary is part of Islam.

Is there any such system of checks and balances in Erdogan’s Government? Is the Judiciary independent or is he trying to curb its independence?

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#23 [Permalink] Posted on 20th April 2017 12:23
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No unfortunately its not going to be only his rule. It will be anyone who comes to President office. That the problem. This is why this system has nothing to do with independence. Its simply whatever the president says will be done without any objections. So if anti Islamic leader comes all those small Islamic reforms will be wiped immediately. Seculars will unite under one secular leader and bring him to power to undue the referandum or worst undue all the Islamic reforms
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#24 [Permalink] Posted on 20th April 2017 12:44
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In this new system the independent judiciary is a question because i heard with my own ears from the AKP's offical that in this new system the President will assign 12(the constitution members are normally consists of 17 members but in this new system it dropped to 15) constitituion courts members himself. Now how independent and how justice is this? Not to mention he will assign judge attorney general etc. The president wouldnt choose a someone who is against him, he will choose someone close to him. This AKP officals argument to this system was these constitituon court members work 12 years. By the time Erdogan will be president he will assign only 3 members. The absurd side is these constitituonal court members will not stay forever. If the president stays for 5 years and lets assume that these members were assigned in 2007 by the time we come to 2019 lets assume secular person came to power and since lets say 7 members cannot work anymore( the president has the right to assign 12 members remember) then he will assign his men. Next election happens in 2024 another man came he was secular again if the members working time has finished he will assign his man as well.

You must think ahead you cant always assume Turkey will choose an Islamic leader. Turkey was ruled 75 years under secularism. You must have strong independent system that can check the system via checks and balances.

Another problem with this system is all power is in the hands of one man. If this man wants the country to go war nobody will stop him or maybe federal system nobody will object to him.

This is the problem. Which i agree with seculars to some extend.
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#25 [Permalink] Posted on 20th April 2017 13:15
Let me give another examples its been 4 days since the referandum and Turkey is divided. People are angry and demanding the high council for elections(YSK) to repeat the referandum because of the number of people participated and number of the people who voted are different. There are other things which they object which is related to the cheating. The High Council for Elections had rejected their offer. Now respected brothers and sisters, if you want to show you have done a fair referandum you shouldnt be afraid of a another referandum because your opponents say to you there are videos of your followers cheating and the number of those who participated to the referandum and the number who voted are not the same. If you dont repeat or lets say not investigate cheating allegations the society's view is going to be a negative one such as they cheated, they are trying to cover it up, they purschased YSK, it was unfair referandum which cannot be accepted. You are seen as a Islamic leader if you ignore their allegations and not do anything about it, they have already bad views about you, how are you going to represent the image of Islam?

Im in the view that this referandum needs to be repeated. If you have done it fairly dont be afraid because Allah will grant you success again but if you cheated and you are just scared to lose your power then they wont be khayr in your rule and you will get more enemies(your enemies will divide your country) and you will represent the image of Islam in a bad way making it difficult for those new practising people too in the case their secular families will stigmatize about Islam as cheaters. Now do you want this?

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#26 [Permalink] Posted on 20th April 2017 13:19

AishaZaynap wrote:
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You have genuine concerns. History of Islam is (unfortunately) littered with those who ruled in favour of the Rulers to gain advantage.

I was reading an incident the other day that a “Caliph” wanted to marry a woman who was divorced by her husband. She had to wait for Iddah period (as per the Qur’aan) before remarrying but the Caliph didn’t want to wait.  So he asked a Qadhi (judge) to rule that it’s permissible for him to marry this woman without waiting and ruling was issued and Nikah was conducted.

The Judiciary really needs to be independent to keep an eye on the rulers and be not afraid to oversee corruption and to STOP abuse of power.

In today’s world when we don’t have the strength of character and piety, we really need independent branches of Government to keep a tight sense of checks and balances.

But given a chance the Secularists would try to RIP Islam out of Turkey so what can we do?

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#27 [Permalink] Posted on 20th April 2017 13:25

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Sir Maripat Saheb,

What are your thoughts on a system of checks and balances? We don’t live in the time of Sahaba (RA) so how can we ensure that a system is in place which is Pro-Islam but also places abuse of power in check?

As you are aware of the history, there have been many abuses of power by Muslim Kings. Sometimes the Judiciary and the office of Qadhi was used as a rubberstamp to merely approve whatever the King said.

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#28 [Permalink] Posted on 20th April 2017 13:28
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Yes brother i totally agree. When Erdogan does this he is loosing the trust of his people which will leave bad image about Islam. If he really sincerely hasnt cheated he needs to investigate these allegations or YSK needs to do referandum again to show that AKP is crediable.

If they dont do this their actions increases my or anyones doubts about this referandum
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#29 [Permalink] Posted on 20th April 2017 16:28
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I understand the concerns that our sister is articulating and that have agitated the seculars within Turkey.

These concerns did not pop up in my mind. See, till our sister primed us, I had no accurate clue about the ground situation in Turkey. I was taking Dr Parvez Ahmed's views too with the requisite pinch of salt. Dr Parvez has visited Turkey several times but he is immersed in US mindset. I am also suspecious of the mindset of the seculars in Turkey. If not the outright return of the Kemalist Turkey they would at least demand a smooth connection with that past. My wishes will not accommodate such a scenario. I think of Muslim world as the Ummah of beloved Prophet (PBUH) and that is all. It is the minimum for me and it is sufficient for me.

With this in mind I am not worried at all about what will happen post Erdugan.
It might be what our sister is fearing. Or might be the case that a wonderful Caliph like personality will adorn the presidential chair in Turkey. I admit that the chances of a Al-Sisi type of person occupying the seat are high. Yet I am at the moment not worrying about that. I will deal with that when I cross that bridge.

Please remember when Hazrat Shah Waliullah (RA) wrote that fateful letter to Ahmed Shah Abdali to tackle the Marathas the image of Abdali was not positive at all. But when he got the call from a scholar of repute he did what decided the course of events in the Indian sub-continent.

I hope I have addressed the issue. In practical life we got to take practical risks.

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#30 [Permalink] Posted on 20th April 2017 17:21
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Respected brother

There is a really big allegation about cheating. Kemalist Seculars Nationalist Seculars and Kurdish Party are saying Erdogan cheated, and they dont say this with only words as Kemalists Seculars have said in the past . They have videos which are all over the internet. Twitter tags are filled with their protests. They demand referandum to be repeated which High Council of Elections rejected. Erdogan may have 51% of the vote but he is the president of Turkey. If you simply ignore these allegations what will happen? Your leadership wont be accepted. Another mass protests will happen and guess what the seculars believe the goverment will provoke another Gezi and arming their Ottoman organization. This gossip has spread. Prominent Nationalist Secular is telling to everyone not to let them provoke you. You see how the image of the goverment is.

You need to act you are the leader of all Turkey. If the elections was fair show it to them(take their allegations seriously). If they dont accept it its fine. You did your part but you didnt do anything and you are sitting down then you will continue to divide Turkey. How okay is that?
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