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#451 [Permalink] Posted on 28th October 2019 19:29

ALIF wrote:
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India & Pakistan have the same problem. Ulama have never explained Shariah to laymen, in the eyes of a common Muslim Shariah is:

  1. Growing Beard
  2. Wearing Niqab
  3. Chopping limbs

Why would a laymen (common Muslim) want that? They see no benefit in it (in their own selfish way). Imran Khan's version of Shariah is Socio-Justice system and I see even Atheists want "Riyasat-e-Madina" and completely ignoring Sunnah aspects of Islam (Beard, Niqab etc)




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#452 [Permalink] Posted on 29th October 2019 05:32
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Muadh_Khan wrote:
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Agree !

Mullah’s Islam is limited to appearances

Sufi’s Islam is limited to ‘Muraqibat’ and ‘Kashaf’

Tablighi Islam is limited to ‘tabligh’ and calling towards tabligh

Maudoodi ‘s Islam is limited to its political aspects only

TTP’s Islam was limited to killings, spreading terror and rule by terror

Deobandi Islam is now limited to the ‘stories about their akabir’, the long forgotten ‘tehrik e reshmi rumal’ and the skirmish of shamli...

Imran khan’s Islam is limited to ‘speeches’ only. If anything, he has got a very superficial idea about Islam, learned from a few ‘mystic’ experiences in his life, and then, one has to speak about Islam if one is in the business of politics in Pakistan. It is a compulsion. Even Bhutto had to add the word ‘Islamic’ to his brand of ‘socialism’ calling it ‘Islamic socialism’. In reality, it was neither Islam nor socialism, it was only a ‘slogan’, and what is wrong in using a slogan to fool people ?

I am sorry, but despite your sincerity, both you and Maripat are overestimating Imran khan :(

He does not have a clue about what he is saying and what he is doing....
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#453 [Permalink] Posted on 29th October 2019 06:00
ALIF wrote:
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Thing is, all their life these "laymen" have been fed the ideology that "mullah is a loser in life" and "doctor, engineer, pilot is a winner", "madressah graduate bad, oxford/cambridge/harvard graduate good". So who exactly are these mullahs supposed to teach the Shariah to? A disillusioned majority? Or to the ones who are at least willing to give them the benefit of the doubt if not anything more? Isn't it a practice of our deen to give priority to those who are already eager to learn more about the deen as instructed by Allah to Prophet (saw)?

In my opinion the ulema have always tried their best and still are. Even now, if you were to walk into any masjid in Karachi on a Friday before the prayer time, you are more likely to hear the imam talking about muamalaat in deen more than anything. Barely do I encounter them talking about what people think Islam is all about (beard, niqab, etc.). It's just that people just don't care. Because fashioning their entire life according to Sunnah requires the kind of effort that they don't believe should be exerted on something as trivial as deen. That is to be reserved for other ventures, ones which will help them attain success in the world.
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#454 [Permalink] Posted on 29th October 2019 06:19
Thanks brother,
But can we expect an Islamic rules (Sharia) in ur country in near future?

How bad is that, all non Muslims blame Islamic Sharia but in reality there is not a single Islamic country governed by Sharia

There are negative comments about Islam All over social media , but we are unable to show anything.

I want to see a country which is ruled by Sharia before I die .
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#455 [Permalink] Posted on 29th October 2019 09:01

a2z wrote:
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Change can only come through two means:

  1. Soft Revolution: We have blown it away and not prepared the masses so they can ask for, embrace and help with the change.
  2. Hard Revolution: This means blood flows in the streets.

Either way, Islam is coming but why would people want something which they don't understand or don't think that they need?

fod1083 wrote:
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Who asked the Ulama to take a back seat and not be part of the society and just sit in the Masjid? People get inspired? Are the millions of people in Karachi inspired by Ulama, their behavior and character? Do they feel that Ulama are part of their everyday struggles, their problems, their ills and their anxieties?

Did the Ulama organise anything or speak about or motivate people when mountains of trash is piled up in Karachi? Did the Ulama organise anything or speak about rivers of blood after Qurbani?

Nabi (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) was part of his society.

Imagine if Nabi (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) just sat in Masjidun-Nabawi and just talked about Muamalat.

You can clearly see the problem if you wish to see the problem.

In the West, our Ulama construct WhatsApp groups and if you try to rise above your station you get banned. Its top down communication and you either accept it or you get boycotted.

The example of Ulama in the eyes of the people who is in leadership (contention) is Maulana Fazlur-Rahman Saheb (HA), just think about it...

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#456 [Permalink] Posted on 29th October 2019 10:30
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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I believe ulema do make the effort to talk about all of these things that you mentioned. People are just not interested in listening or changing themselves based on what the ulema have to say. The thirst for knowledge or the thirst for deen is just not there. If you try to force these people, they become even more disillusioned. So the ulema are doing the best they can while trying to keep the balance between completely alienating them and being forceful enough to drill their message.

Thing with the people here is, they will talk a big game about change and what not but when it comes to actually taking steps towards anything constructive, anything right, they don't want to make the effort. We could go on to tell the ulema to "do more", but I know the Pakistanis very well by now. They are going to listen to the ulema and if we are lucky maybe make an effort to change for a day or two, then go back to their former ways.

As for Maulana Fazl -ur- Rehman, most laymen don't think much of him anyway. I recently found out that some people didn't even think he is an actual aalim. They thought he was called Maulana because of his get-up. That's the state of people here. Not that that knowledge did him any favors in their eyes. Sad reality is people just don't trust or care about the ulema here to even pay heed to whatever they have to say. Unless, those ulema talk about something that they desperately want to hear for example, more than one marriage or so and so is kaafir, etc.
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#457 [Permalink] Posted on 29th October 2019 10:36

fod1083 wrote:
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You are putting the cart before the horse. Trust is earned, not deserved. This is the fundamental error which leads Ulama to lose elections, they believe that they have "entitlement":

  1. People should listen to us
  2. People should come to us
  3. People should benefit from us

Life does not work like this.

I know that you cannot bring yourself yourself to think this way as you may think that it is some kind of blasphemy or Kuf'r etc and that's' fine.

Quote:
As for Maulana Fazl -ur- Rehman, most laymen don't think much of him anyway.

Maulana is on every TV channel, forum and Social Media platform. He is front and center. Your mind wants to dismiss it but for Pakistanees when India is creating problems on Eastern border and Afghanistan on the western border....Maulana is leading an "Azaadi March".

I do not wish to change subjects by discussing him being an Alim (or not) because that is obviously a distraction. If he is not an Alim then once again ask Ulama as to why the address him as "Maulana"? Ulama of Pakistan call him "Maulana" so people are making Taqleed.


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#458 [Permalink] Posted on 29th October 2019 11:17
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I know that you cannot bring yourself yourself to think this way as you may think that it is some kind of blasphemy or Kuf'r etc and that's' fine.

I have already thought about this and more. This is something I already used to do in my life. Holding the ulema to such stringent standards. What you are saying is nothing new to me, nor have I ever considered it blasphemous. In a general sense, I also agree with it but I have had a change in perspective in the recent years, and have started giving the benefit of the doubt to the ulema. It's not easy to operate and preach to a majority which is hell-bent upon hating you whether they know you or not. Who start judging you the moment they set eyes upon your appearance. The reason that people like Engineer are so popular is because he's successfully using people's confirmation bias. The moment someone appears on the scene who is ready to drag the name of the ulema through the mud, to insult them openly and without fear, people take to him instantly. Because that's what they want to hear. It confirms their preconceived notions. An aalim could quote many ahadith about a certain topic and people will just ignore him, but the moment someone like the Engineer quotes the same ahadith, people are ready to crown him the Mahdi.

So, although the flaws are evident on both sides, you can see why my sympathy lies more with the ulema than with the masses.
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#459 [Permalink] Posted on 29th October 2019 11:32
fod1083 wrote:
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People did listen to uluma in KP, remember? They were overwhelmingly voted into power.

But somehow the public got so disillusioned with the rule of religious parties that in the next elections they outright rejected them, and voted for the exact opposite, the secular nationalist parties...

Any serious student of political science should try to work out the reasons for such a dramatic change in the mandate of the people, some very Islam loving people....
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#460 [Permalink] Posted on 29th October 2019 11:44
ALIF wrote:
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Do you honestly think people should have been looking towards "religious political parties" for an example of practical deen? Were there no other ulema left? And for that matter do you really think I am talking about the political figures of deen when I talk about the disillusionment of masses? Of course not. If the people were looking towards these figureheads to show them the way to practical deen, then that in itself was a huge folly on the part of the people. Why does an aalim have to be in the limelight, why does he have to be a showman for people to start heeding his advice? Don't you see where the problem really is?
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#461 [Permalink] Posted on 29th October 2019 11:49

fod1083 wrote:
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No!

Engineer is speaking in a manner and tone which people find familiar so they are attracted. Why do people listen to Mufti Tariq Masood (HA) and his jokes?

Maulana Maududi (RA), Dr Israr Ahmed (RA), Dr Farhat Hashmi, Dr Zakir Naik all speak in a manner in which people understand. This is a simple communication issue to understand.

fod1083 wrote:
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  1. Because Nabi (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassalam) was in the limelight and right in the center of people
  2. Ulama are supposed to be inheritors of Nabi (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassalam)

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#462 [Permalink] Posted on 29th October 2019 12:15
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Because Nabi (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassalam) was in the limelight and right in the center of people
Ulama are supposed to be inheritors of Nabi (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassalam)

The "people" of Nabi (saw) were the Sahaba (RA). That caliber of people is nowhere to be found now. They saw an honorable man (saw) and they gave him the respect he deserved because they themselves were honorable. The same cannot be expected from the people of today.
Similarly they may be the inheritors of Nabi (saw) but it's extremely unfair to hold the ulema of today to the same standards as that of a prophet. The limelight of Nabi (saw) was also a direct consequence of his status as a prophet of Allah. The aalim of today has no such status to hold the people to.

Anyways, I am gonna leave it at that because this is gonna become a very circular argument about which comes first. The reverence of ulema in the hearts of people or how the ulema inspire that reverence. I think I have sufficiently elaborated on my opinion as to why I think the people are being unfair to ulema, and everyone is free to disagree.
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#463 [Permalink] Posted on 29th October 2019 12:22

fod1083 wrote:
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Wrong argument based on stories which you have heard in Bayans.

  1. Inspiration: You & I can inspire (and should inspire) to be like Sahaba (RA)
  2. Equality: You & I can never become even the dust touching the Sahaba (RA)

Leaders say that followers are not like Sahaba so leaders cannot become like Sayyiduna Umar (RA) is a ridiculous argument.

  • I am hated on forums because people say that I behave in a certain manner.
  • IF I commit a sin, would Allah Ta'ala forgive you for committing a sin?

When we were kids our mothers used to say, "If he jumps in a well, will you also jump into the well? OR will you know that jumping in a well is not a smart thing to do?"

Qur'aan is simple

Loading Qur'aan Verse



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#464 [Permalink] Posted on 29th October 2019 21:30
ALIF wrote:
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So in short, the problem is limited and wrong perception...
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#465 [Permalink] Posted on 29th October 2019 23:23

sipraomer wrote:
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I have personally known about Imran Khan, his wrongdoings and sinning.

As a player, Imran Khan was a military medium (no swing or seam) bowler and hundreds of them exist in the county system. The county system tried to make him concentrate on line and length because he was utterly useless! His first delivery for Pakistan was wide , caught in the second slip...That's how mediocre Imran Khan was (as a player).

My Ex-boss told me that when Imran Khan turned up at Worcestershire, he was a mediocre bowler with dashing good looks and partied hard but as a player he was not going anywhere.

But what he always had and still has is the ability to focus and concentrate.

This military medium bowler turned himself into a frighteningly quick bowler in the era of Lille, Thomson, Holding etc. This is extremely difficult if not impossible when all the Coaches are telling you to do the opposite.

Then he got injured with a stress fracture, this usually finishes the pace of a fast bowler. Look at Dennis Lillie, Imran Khan came back and demolished India on the dead pitches of subcontinent.

Then as he got older, he changed himself again with leg cutters and learned to bat. In 1992, he promoted himself to number 3 in the World cup final.

He is not perfect and never been perfect. Something happened in 1992 and he started turning towards Islam. In 1994, a Jammat from Bannu told me that Imran Khan came to the Bannu Markaz parked his land cruiser prayed Dhohar and left. Jamaat told me that he never looked right or left, prayed and left. 

Imran Khan is not a Scholar and does not much except basics of Islam but he is disciplined, focused and committed. I asked senior (retired) Army officers of Pakistan as to why they back Imran Khan and they said, "He is not Army but he is disciplined."

Let me list all the Prime Ministers of Pakistan since 1990:

  1. Nawaz Sharif
  2. Benazir Bhutto
  3. Nawaz Sharif
  4. Mir Zafarullah Khan Jamali
  5. Chaudhry Shujaat Hussain
  6. Shaukat Aziz
  7. Yousaf Raza Gillani
  8. Raja Pervaiz Ashraf
  9. Nawaz Sharif
  10. Shahid Khaqan Abbasi
  11. Imran Khan=1 year, 67 days

Just take a good look at the names in that list and compare them to Imran Khan.

Loading Qur'aan Verse

The economy, Kashmir, corruption etc are not the fault of Imran Khan and he has never claimed to be a Sahabi. He keeps talking about Riyasat-e-Madina so give it 5 years and then throw him out. He does not know a lot about Islam to be able to deliver Riyasat-e-Madina, its his passion but not much will happen. Imran Khan is also wrong about India, Pakistan will not be left alone.

People say that he has done nothing but gave a speech at UN, I ask you  (and every Deobandi)

Which speech has Maulana Fazlur-Rahman Saheb (HA) given even in Urdu which is worth quoting?

When you get Sayyiduna Mahdi (AS) by all means throw Imran Khan out and make Bayah at his hands but until then who do you want instead of Imran Khan? He has made many mistakes and will keep on making mistakes and he will neither ban Interest/Usury, nor stop vulgarity and open sins etc but he has never committed to do anything of that sort. Maulana Fazlur-Rahman Saheb (HA) is incapable of running Bannu let alone Pakistan doesn't matter what he promises!


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