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abu mohammed, abuzayd2k, bint e aisha, Abdur Rahman ibn Awf, sipraomer
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#301 [Permalink] Posted on 6th October 2019 15:35
Maripat wrote:
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You may not have meant it, but your post gives the impression as if the strike call by Maulana is ‘ ‘in response’ to the speech !

That is not the case...

Maulana has been against IK since long, after elections he did not accept the results and suggested that the opposition should not take oath as members of the assembly. He had announced his intention of a sit in many months ago, and since then has held very successful rallies for mobilising masses for it in 15 different cities of Pakistan, attracting huge crowds of his followers. Only the date is announced recently. It has nothing to do with UNGA speech or the current developments in Kashmir....

I kept writing, and although my posts are not worth reading or remembering , still if by chance you happened to read them, i repeatedly wrote in my posts.“Despite all the good intentions etc IK does not have the required capabilities to fulfil his agenda”...

One may see many good things in his dreams, but when one wakes up to the realities, one finds them starkly different..

Imran khan refuses to wake up, and it seems now it is too late for him :(

It is unfortunate to watch that the advisers of IK are still suggesting to him that every thing is fine and Maulana does not have the required strength to do it... The fact is, Maulana is not only very well prepared but, have motivated and prepared his youth, rehearsed it 15 times, and now feels confident enough to announce the date.

I am not a Maulana lover. I voted for PTI candidate, and I still have hopes in IK, the problem is, IK himself seems to have lost all interest. He was a fighter but the way he blissfully ignored this ‘political threat’ can only be described as ‘overconfidence’ or ‘ignorance’ or ‘share stupidity’. This could have been handled politically, and it is still possible. A businessman and a politician, both can not afford to be arrogant...

If IK was up-to his status, he would have known that so far his government is a total failure, his personal popularity has declined, the economy has gone down, the rupee is drastically devalued, the inflation rate has jumped from 3.2 to double figures and the people are feeling the pinch of it. It is not that he has not borrowed money, he has taken loans not only from IMF but from Saudi, UAE, Qatar, China and world bank. If the previous governments had taken loans, they had kept prices in control and fought wars in FATA and Karachi, had almost managed the load shedding etc. We have yet to see any constructive measures in the pipeline by this government, leave alone on the ground. His party and his cabinet is in disarray....

Can his one speech in UNGA, make him a perfect politician or prime minister ? Hardly.

I repeat, speeches are made and forgotten. Jamal Abdul Nasir was a much better orator than IK, so was Saddam. IK made one strategic blunder on Kashmir, HE RULED OUT WAR WITH INDIA ON THE ISSUE, only a ‘threat’ of war could have made international community listen to him. He gives threat of war ‘if Pakistan is attacked’. There was hardly any incentive left for India to withdraw its decisions on Kashmir. (If there is no war, why the hell would they go back ?) Today, if someone blames IK for a sellout on Kashmir please don’t reject him off hand, there is substance in it....

Sorry for all the above, but I had a feeling you are not fully in picture...
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#302 [Permalink] Posted on 6th October 2019 15:36
I will repeat again that Ik's party will destroy him.
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#303 [Permalink] Posted on 6th October 2019 15:53
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1. Agreed! I felt joy after listening the speech. However, I was observing that some members here and some of my tablighi and non tablighi friends outside this forum were taking it a bit too far. There are people more emotional than me ;). Speeches are only effective if followed by practical and solid actions.

2. I have a more serious concern right now. If Maulana is ****** by the third party, then it would trigger a civil war between the religious folks and the secular ones. Ik's party is full of immatures and crooks. IK must realize that no government could function for long until the religious element of our society is not made friends with. Even dictators like sharfu couldn't stand it when they crossed the limits. What to talk about this fragile government run by a party which have many snakes inside it.

3. The time when I came to realize that IK will not succeed.

a. Confusion of ideology within his own party. At one point he talks about Islam, Quran and Iqbal. While on the other hand his party workers start dancing and partying.

b. When old politicians from other parties started to join his party.
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#304 [Permalink] Posted on 6th October 2019 16:24
ALIF wrote:
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Quote:
You may not have meant it, but your post gives the impression as if the strike call by Maulana is ‘ ‘in response’ to the speech !

That is not the case...

Maulana has been against IK since long, after elections he did not accept the results and suggested that the opposition should not take oath as members of the assembly. He has announced his intention of a sit in many months ago, and since then has held very successful rallies for mobilising masses for it in 15 different cities of Pakistan, attracting huge crowds of his followers. Only the date is announced recently. It has nothing to do with UNGA speech or the current developments in Kashmir....


When Imran Khan speaks in the UN he is Maulana's Prime Minister too. Maulana's opposition should have ceased the moment Imran Khan left for the UN. After the speech the Maulana must have been graceful enough to appreciate it. At the most he must have shut up and even that would be in bad faith.

And faith is the issue here. That the Maulana has been opposing Imran Khan for long is in itself simply bad faith. Elections do take place in democracies and so many times those people get elected whom we do not like. Unless the elected person is like our Prime Minister there should not be this long standing animosity towards Imran Khan just because he got elected as the PM. Add to it the fact that Imran Khan waited for so long in a most graceful manner.

Quote:
I kept writing, and although my posts are not worth reading or remembering , still if by chance you happened to read them, i repeatedly wrote in my posts.“Despite all the good intentions etc IK does not have the required capabilities to fulfil his agenda”...


I do read your posts and in particular I had made the intention to reply to your comments about the contributions of the people like Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto. sadly time and energy simply do not permit me to do as much as I want to do and as much as has to be done. That is why I keep requesting my brothers and sisters to share my burden.

Coming to lack of Imran Khan's capabilities. Please remember this itself is not in good faith to start your argument with the assertion that Imran Khan does not have the capabilities to implement his agenda.

In case of Mr Modi in India we have seen what a disastrous manager of economic affairs he has proved to be and how inapt he is in dealing with the foreign dignitaries and how abjectly he sits in the lap of the oligarchs and how shamelessly the Saffron agenda of Muslim lynching went on in his government. This is the type of evidence that one needs before passing on the judgement that Imran Khan is incompetent.

I am not very good at matters social and matters economic and hence I find it very difficult to comment on those. And it does not help that my experience can not be first hand but having said that I have not found any significant news on his inaptness in matters economic and social management.

And that where I am flabbergasted at your aversion to Imran Khan. I would understand it if your focus was the fact that Imran Khan was ignoring Chinese atrocities against Uyghur Muslims.
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One may see many good things in his dreams, but when one wakes up to the realities, one finds them starkly different..

My brother some things do start by dreaming a rosy picture and it is distressing that you want to deny that to Imran Khan in particular and Pakistan in general. please understand that you have to give him a decent chance. That unfortunately you have not done.
Quote:

Imran khan refuses to wake up, and it seems now it is too late for him :(

Again I fail to understand that when he has given such a wonderful performance in international diplomacy it becomes a monumental evidence against him.

For Maulana Fazl-ur-Rahman I do understand that he is simply playing the tune that is soothing to his financiers - the US but about you I fail to understand. You are too young to feel a competitive jealousy, too young to get a sixth sense about real life experiences and I doubt that you are influential enough to be bought by the CIA. Yet you are inexplicably inclined towards the Maulana whom the circumstances tell us to be wary of and you are inclined against Khan Sahab who might be the best thing that has happened to the Muslim Ummah after Jinnah.


Quote:
It is unfortunate to watch that the advisers of IK are still suggesting to him that every thing is fine and Maulana does not have the required strength to do it... For from it, Maulana is not only very well prepared, have motivated and prepared his youth, rehearsed it 15 times, and now feels confident enough to announce the date.

I am not convinced about Maulana's reliability, well prepared he might be. He better be well prepared so as to answer to those who finance him.

Quote:
I am not a Maulana lover. I voted for PTI candidate, and I still have hopes in IK, the problem is, IK himself seems to have lost all interest. He was a fighter but the way he blissfully ignored this ‘political threat’ can only be defined as ‘overconfidence’ or ‘ignorance’ or ‘share stupidity’. This could have been handled politically, and it is still possible. A businessman and a politician, both can not afford to be arrogant...

Brother either you support Maulana or Imran Khan. And you better make your mind clear about it. It helps.

It is very inconvenient to have a state of indecision. For example I was in state of indecision about Uncle-Nephew duo of Jamiat-e-Ulema-e-Hind Maulana Arshad Madani and Maulana Mahmood Madani. It was a difficult situation for me. Only now the picture is becoming slightly clear. I can not trust these two Maulanas too.

And please understand I do enormous benefit of doubt to people. For example I have decided to accept bot Kaleem Siddiqui Sahab of Phulat and Pir Zulfiqar Ahmed Sahab Naqshbandi in spite of controversial reports about them.

But three Maulanas that I have mentioned earlier are completely out for me.

Quote:
If IK was up-to his status, he would have known that so far his government is a total failure, his personal popularity has declined, the economy has gone down, the rupee is drastically devalued, the inflation rate has jumped from 3.2 to double figures and the people are feeling the pinch of it. It is not that he has not borrowed money, he has taken loans not only from IMF but from Saudi, UAE, Qatar, China and world bank. If the previous governments had taken loans, they had kept prices in control and fought wars in FATA and Karachi, had almost managed the load shedding etc. We have yet to see any constructive measures in the pipeline by this government, leave alone on the ground. His party and his cabinet is in disarray....

Fine. all this might go against him. So far it has not. Kindly do go against him but my brother I am not still convinced by your evidence and arguments. And even if Maulana Fazl-ur-rahman manages to throw some mud at him I am not going to be a fan of the Maulana. There is too much circumstantial evidence against him.

Quote:
Can his one speech in UNGA, make him a perfect politician or prime minister ? Hardly.

I suppose at this stage I must divulge to you that the west will take at least six months to the new reality that he has created. And that is a lot. The only other significant progress in the affairs of Muslim Ummah in last fifty years has been the ones by the Taliban.

Quote:

I repeat, speeches are made and forgotten. Jamal Abdul Nasir was a much better orator than IK, so was Saddam. IK made one strategic blunder on Kashmir, HE RULED OUT WAR WITH INDIA ON THE ISSUE, only a ‘threat’ of war could have made international community listen to him. He gives threat of war ‘if Pakistan is attacked’. There was hardly any chance left for India to withdraw its decisions on Kashmir. Today, if someone blames him for a sellout on Kashmir please don’t reject him off hand, there is substance in it....

I am sorry I do not agree nor I am taking your advice. I apologize that we have a rather biggish difference of opinion.

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Sorry for all the above, but I had a feeling you are not fully in picture...

Thank you for the reminder but I still do not agree.
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#305 [Permalink] Posted on 6th October 2019 16:31
sipraomer wrote:
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I really do not understand this aversion to him because his party men dance.

I suppose you and brother ALIF have an Islamic society in mind. That indeed would be a good thing and we should strive for that. But before having a Islamic society let us make the existing Muslim society safe and stable. That is where Imran Khan is in the picture.

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#306 [Permalink] Posted on 6th October 2019 16:40
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It is fine Sir, people do disagree on issues...

You have misread many of my points, but i will not argue. The problem must be in my drafting or my communication skills, not in your interpretation :)

Thank you for your prompt reply.
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#307 [Permalink] Posted on 6th October 2019 16:44
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You are most graceful my brother but I feel really helpless that we do have a significant difference of opinion.

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#308 [Permalink] Posted on 6th October 2019 17:17
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It is a fact that Maulana has not given any ‘solid reason’ so far, as to why he felt it necessary to do it NOW when the country needs all its focus on kashmir.

Having said that, it looks like Maulana has successfully convinced his support base to come out on streets.

It is also a fact that Maulana would not have started such a big move on his own, someone, a party or some institution or agency may have promised him support. Those who knows Maulana would agree with me.

Government can not be dislodged by lock downs. IK will remain a legal prime minister, even if the PM HOUSE and parliament is captured by the activists. This obvious fact must be known even to Maulana, so what is the real agenda ?

Unlike the impression taken, i am a man of nobody. I have no personal interest in IK or Maulana. My interest is Islam and pakistan. Any chaos will deflect attention away from kashmir and that will be a tragedy....
Moreover, any third party may take advantage of the huge crowed, and create a situation where the activists and law enforcers may come face to face or God forbid, there may be a blast killing the protesters or some important personality may be assassinated, making the situation worse.I hope some powerful people intervene to stop the movement.

My point that Imran is not capable enough is proved by Imran khan himsel during his one year rule. (As i had studied his personality, and i knew ordinary people don't change overnight, i predicted it before hand. No prejudice involved). Nobody expected miracles from him but he has failed even to give a clear direction to the country and the economy. Every thing can not be blamed on previous corruptions. For how long ???

If a very pious doctor can not treat his patients, we still consider him pious but ‘incompetent’ ; If an otherwise very good captain can’t make good use of his team, he is incompetent ; If a general can’t lead his soldiers to victory, he is incompetent !

Is it so difficult to understand ?
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#309 [Permalink] Posted on 6th October 2019 17:43
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Moreover, any third party may take advantage of the huge crowed, and create a situation where the activists and law enforcers may come face to face or God forbid, there may be a blast or some important personality may be assassinated making the situation worse.


Bulls eye! This is what I am afraid of.
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#310 [Permalink] Posted on 6th October 2019 17:47
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If IK wants to dance then he must be clear from the very start and must declare himself completely secular. If however, he is committed to religion then he must take appropriate actions. He must choose one direction. Parties with unclear ideologies can never succeed no matter how competent a leader is leading them. Setting the direction of the party is the first job of a leader.
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#311 [Permalink] Posted on 6th October 2019 17:47
The real calamity amongst the Muslims right now is that if some secular-minded person is doing something doubtful or suspicious it is expected by the Muslims to observe husn-e-dhan about him, no matter how "incompetent" that person has proved himself to be. But when a Maulana does something they don't understand, it's immediately assumed to be because he is corrupt or doing it on behalf of some power that be.

I personally want this military regime that is being run under the "Bajwa doctrine" toppled. And if that means I have to support Maulana Fazl-ur-Rehman for that to happen, then I am all for it. I simply do not care for the delusional PTI or IK supporters.
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#312 [Permalink] Posted on 6th October 2019 17:54
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Military regimes can't be toppled down by demonstrations, dharnas etc. To remove them you need to have men and women who can sacrifice their lives. Who are willing to die in huge numbers.

Now don't issue fatwa of irtidad on me. However, analyzing the situation on political and dunyawi grounds, Iran had such a nation and such a leader. Afghanistan had and has such a nation and such leaders.

As far as Maulana is concerned. People must consider this fact that he is supported by the likes of Mufti Taqi Uthmani. So they must be cautious before declaring him munafiq, corrupt. Also Mufti Tariq Masood Sahab has also dismissed this notion that he has ever done corruption. So it is better to remain neutral instead of earning sin.
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#313 [Permalink] Posted on 6th October 2019 18:17
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In search for an ‘instant messiah’ sometimes we even turn a blind eye towards some obvious realities. This is human nature, it is generally taken as ‘normal’.

I repeat I am not a Maulana follower by any stretch of imagination , but if Maulana was/is against IK, not for a great ideological faith, but only because IK snatched political space from Maulana in KP, is that bad faith ? Politicians do that, and at least I never considered him as some kind of Mujaddad or ghaus of our times....

But at the same, is there any ‘proof’, (not ‘allegations’) of corruption against him, if there was, NAB would have nabbed him a long time ago...

By the same token, may I ask if there is any proof he is a CIA agent ? Or is that also a bad faith ?

I don’t agree with his long march or dharna, it will create chaos in the country, destabilise an already weak economy, and most of all damage the Kashmir cause. We may call him ‘envious’ towards IK or ‘jealous’ or ‘self centred’, but a CIA agent without a proof ? Bad faith !

There is real chance that things may go wrong (unless there is some intervention) and I hope his dharna fails, not for the sake of IK but for the sake of Pakistani and Kashmiri Muslims....
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#314 [Permalink] Posted on 6th October 2019 18:53
We Muslims only want proof when a convicted blasphemer gets sentenced to death. If the court rules in favor of the blasphemer then the justice has been done, if it is against the blasphemer, then the justice system is broken. That's our idea of proofs and justice. When an aalim gets accused of wrongdoing, we don't really need proof, we know for sure that the aalim is at fault. There can be no other opinion about it.

Success through dharna is a long shot but I want the military to get shaken up and realize that they can't get away with deluding people anymore. They need to realize that there are other forces in the country that can hold them accountable one day. Maybe this will lead them to make a critical mistake.
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#315 [Permalink] Posted on 6th October 2019 19:28
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Success through dharna is a long shot but I want the military to get shaken up and realize that they can't get away with deluding people anymore. They need to realize that there are other forces in the country that can hold them accountable one day. Maybe this will lead them to make a critical mistake.


On the contrary, i believe it will make ‘them’ more stronger and more ‘influential’ in the affairs of state than before.The weaker the political government the stronger they get....

The purpose of ‘dharna’ by Imran and TUQ was not to over throw Nawas, but to gain ‘more space’, and they did. Both the leaders were deceived and used by the promises that they will be brought into power once Nawaz is removed.....

History repeats itself :)
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