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#76 [Permalink] Posted on 15th March 2017 15:53
You have made your points and I have made mine. We are not getting anywhere. You are becoming personal and insulting me, as have been your habit with others on other forums and platforms. In any case this is not about you and me.

Quote:

So as I have asked multiple times, what is HIS ISAMIC PROOF of the event at Bradford a violation of any of the points above.

All I get is moaning and whining


Is Mufti Kifayatullah a drama queen and wants attention so he trolls and trolls and stoops ever lower in his quest to show double standards? Mufti Kifayatullah just CANNOT seem to understand the difference between a MOSQUE and an ordinary building?

His reasoning is: "Hence, it is established that the emergence of women from their homes is a cause of Fitnah. It is for this reason that to make Purdah arrangements at Lecture gatherings is of no benefit, and there will be no effect by it being made permissible. Otherwise it will then become incumbent to make separate arrangements in the Masaajid, for women to attend the Salaat and join in the Jamaa’at (congregation), and permission will have to be granted for this as well, as a matter of priority. But this is not established from any kitaab."


Quote:
His (irrelevant and ridiculous point) is this:

Since women are allowed for Eid (in his opinion)
They should be allowed in a Mosque 24x7 and for events


You constantly put words in my mouth to prove your point. I never made such points. I was placing emphasis on Eid throughout the discussion and you insisted on starting the dialogue with women going to Masjid. Yes my point is if women are allowed at such events then they should be no big deal if they are allowed for Eid Salah with the proper conditions in place.

Quote:

The words of Nabi (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) are clear but offer no reasons and no explanations. The Fatwa of (Mufti) Ibn Adam (HA) and other Ulama may offer reasons (fear, Fitnah) but the Hadeeth is clear. Those are not in the Haeeth. Therefore, EVEN if those factors are addressed prayer of a Women in a MOSQUE will not change status. Brother is unable to distinguish the words of Nabi (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) from the explanation of Scholars. He simply is unable or unwilling (after days of discussions) to separate wood from the trees.


So yes the words of Nabi Sallahu Alyhi Waslam are clear not to ban women from Mosques, and to encourage them to come to Eid Salah.

Quote:
Because there is no prohibition of women attending a BUILDING while fulfilling laws of Hijab etc.


And there is no PROHIBITION of women attending a Masjid or Eid gah while fulfilling the laws of Hijab etc.

My Islamic proof for my reasoning once again is as follows:


‘Allāmah Ibn ‘Abidīn said:
“Since she is prevented from attending congregation, there is all the more reason to prevent her from a sermon and rain prayer. Al-‘Aynī included the rain prayer within the congregations, while what we said is superior.” (Minhat al-Khāliq, on the margins of al-Bahr, 1:359)


‘Allāmah al-Haskafī said:
“It is impermissible for them to attend congregation, even Jumu‘ah, and ‘Id and sermons, in general, even an old woman in the night according to the position of the madhhab on which fatwa is given because of the corruption of the time.” (Radd al-Muhtar ala al-Durr, 1/566)


Allaamah Badruddeen Aini (rahmatullaahi ‘alayh) states in Sharah-e-Kanz:
“Women, be they young or old, are prohibited from attending the Masjid for Jamaa’at Salaat because this is an era of social decay and immorality.”
It is reported from Imaam Abu Haneefah (rahmatullaahi alayh) that it is permissible for old ladies to attend Fajr, Maghrib and Eshaa Salaats. Saahibain (lmaam Abu Yusuf and Imaam Muhammad) and the other 3 Imaams (Maalik, Shaaf’i and lbn Hambal) (rahmatullaahi ‘alayhim) say old ladies can attend all Salaats. However, the ruling of these times is that old and young women are all prohibited from attending Salaat in Jamaa’at. And the author is also of the opinion that Jumu’ah, ‘Eid and Istisqaah Salaats and Lecture gatherings are all included in this prohibition, specifically those lectures of persons posing as ‘Ulama whose object is to satisfy their desires and to earn worldly benefits.” (Aini Sharah Kanz, Page 39)


“It is not permissible for women to attend Salaat in congregation, whether it be Jumu’ah or ‘Eid Salaat or a Lecture, even if she is old and it is night time. This is the final ruling (regarding this Mas-alah). This ruling is given due to the present (lamentable) state of social immorality.” (Durrul Mukhtaar, Page 397, Vol 1)


I think I have said more than enough, but I could not let you get away with that post.
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#77 [Permalink] Posted on 15th March 2017 16:17

Concerned wrote:
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Let’s stoop down to your level of Intelligence and play Trolling...

  1. They were NOT in a Mosque
  2. They were NOT invited to Salah
  3. It was NOT on Eid

Which bits of English language in these 3 simple lines can you NOT understand? Please tell me the number and I will try to say it in a language and words you can grasp.

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#78 [Permalink] Posted on 15th March 2017 16:53
If the moderators want to lock the thread they can, or leave it open for anyone to comment. I don't think there is anymore I can say right now. Jazak Allahu Khair to those who participated in the discussion.
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#79 [Permalink] Posted on 15th March 2017 17:02
Absolutely not. It will be travesty of Justice, ethics or morality for someone to TROLL an entire group of Scholars and not offer a shred of Evidence.

Refuse to admit that they made a mistake

Refuse to see clear distinctions.

Refuse to admit that there may be difference of opinions.

Shameful behaviour from a habitual troll. This is an Islamic forum and genuine disagreement, dialogue and differences of opinion should be respected but not trolling, slander or accusations.

If you want tom delete the entire thread.
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#80 [Permalink] Posted on 15th March 2017 17:09
The thread can stay. It can also stay open. It does not need to be deleted. If you cannot understand the statement from Mufti Kifayatulah, then I do not know what to say to you.

There you go again insulting me calling me a habitual troll. I hardly post on this forum, far less troll. Anyways Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatulahi wa barakatu.
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#81 [Permalink] Posted on 15th March 2017 17:23
Praise be to Allaah.
It was narrated in Saheeh al-Bukhaari (1164) and Saheeh Muslim (4022) that Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: “I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: ‘The rights of a Muslim over his fellow Muslim are five: returning greetings, visiting the sick, attending funerals, accepting invitations, and saying Yarhamuk Allaah (may Allaah have mercy on you) when he sneezes.’”

The scholars divided the invitations which the Muslim is commanded to accept into two categories:

1 – Invitation to a wedding party (waleemah). The majority of scholars said that it is obligatory to accept such an invitation, unless there is a legitimate shar’i excuse – some such excuses will be mentioned below, in sha Allaah. The evidence (daleel) that it is obligatory to accept these invitations is the hadeeth narrated by al-Bukhaari (4779) and Muslim (2585) from Abu Hurayrah, that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The worst kind of food is the food of a wedding feast that is withheld from those who would come and to which people are invited who mayrefuse it. Whoever does not accept the invitation has disobeyed Allaah and His Messenger.”

2 – Invitation to various kinds of gatherings other than wedding-feasts. The majority of scholars say that accepting these invitations is mustahabb, and no one differed from that apart from some of the Shaafa’is and Zaahiris, who said it is obligatory. If we say that it is strongly mustahabb that is close enough. And Allaah knows best.

But the scholars have stipulated conditions for accepting an invitation; if these conditions are not met then it is not obligatory or mustahabb to accept the invitation, rather it may be haraam to attend. These conditions were summed up by Shaykh Muhammad ibn ‘Uthaymeen, who said:

1- There should be nothing objectionable (munkar) in the place where the party etc. is to be held. If there is something objectionable and it is possible to remove it, then it is obligatory to attend for two reasons: to accept the invitation and to change the objectionable thing. If it is not possible to remove it then it is haraam to attend.

2- The person who invited him should not be someone whom it is obligatory or Sunnah to forsake (such as one who openly commits immoral actions or sin, where forsaking him may be of benefit in bringing about his repentance).

3- The person who invited him should be a Muslim. If he is not, then it is not obligatory to accept the invitation, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The rights of a Muslim over his fellow Muslim are five…”

4- The food offered should be permissible for us to eat.

5- Accepting the invitation should not lead to ignoring a more important duty; if that is the case then it is haraam to accept the invitation.

6- It should not cause any trouble to the person who is invited. For example, if he needs to travel or to leave his family who need him there, and so on. (al-Qawl al-Mufeed, 3/111).

Some scholars added:

7- If the host issued a general invitation, saying that everyone is welcome, then it is not obligatory to accept the invitation.

From the above it should be clear to you that you do not have to accept such invitations, rather it may be haraam for you to do so, if you cannot change the reprehensible things (munkar) or if your attending the gatherings will affect your duties towards your husband and children and prevent you from taking care of them as you are supposed to do. Moreover you will not be safe from their evil and harm. This is an excuse which frees you from having to accept invitation which you are obliged to accept, let alone those which are not obligatory at all.

Women should also note that they have to ask their husband’s permission to go out to parties etc. to which they are invited. You should advise these sisters to try to make the best use of their time and their gatherings in ways that will benefit them either in religious or worldly terms. For the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) warned us of the consequences of attending gatherings in which Allaah is not mentioned. He (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “No people sit in a gathering in which they do not remember Allaah or send blessings upon their Prophet, but they will regret it, if He wills He will punish them and if He wills He will forgive them.” (Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 3302; he said, this is a saheeh hasan hadeeth. It was also classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi, 3/140)

In Sunan Abi Dawood (4214) and elsewhere it is narrated that Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: “The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘People who get up from an assembly in which they did not remember Allaah will be just as if they had got up from a donkey’s carcass, and it will be a cause of grief to them.” (Classed as saheeh by al-Nawawi in Riyaadh al-Saaliheen, 321, and by al-Albaani).

Convey this advice to them, either verbally or in writing. In addition, you could invite them to your house and make the most of this opportunity to hold a dhikr circle, in addition to doing some permissible things that they will like. Perhaps Allaah will make you the means of starting a good trend of benefiting from such gatherings. And Allaah is the Source of strength.

islamqa.info/en/22006


The prohibition of women attending the mosque is based upon fiqh. like someone said earlier, the sanctity of the mosque is not the same of a hall.
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#82 [Permalink] Posted on 15th March 2017 17:26
My bad, can a mod authorise my edit please.
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#83 [Permalink] Posted on 15th March 2017 17:36
Concerned wrote:
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Again, stooping down to your level of Intelligence and responding.

Mufti Kifayatullah (RA) was ONE Scholar and his opinion from the 1940s in India DOES NOT define the Hanafi Madhab. It also DOES NOT mean that every single Hanafi or Deobandi (Scholar) agrees with his view.

Even if you take the views of Mufti Kifayatullah (RA) on face value the event in Bradford falls out of scope of the restrictions of his opinion as clearly marked "NOT" in plain simple English and Red colours in my posts for multiple days are trying to point out.

Now tell me "Genius" which bit of the above in Plain English do you not understand and if you disagree with it on "what grounds"?

The Ulama in Bradford DO NOT believe the restrictions as articulated by Mufti Kifayatullah (RA) to be the opinion of the Hanafi Madhab and have never advocated them.

Mufti Mangera (HA) has been an Imam for almost 2 decades in America and UK and he has NEVER given that opinion so how is he guilty of double standards, "Genius"?

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#84 [Permalink] Posted on 15th March 2017 17:47
Quote:
The prohibition of women attending the mosque is based upon fiqh. like someone said earlier, the sanctity of the mosque is not the same of a hall.


You lost me. Please point out to me how that conclusion is drawn from your article? If not clearly provide me with the fiqh that is used to prohibit women from attending the mosque. And furthermore, that website you quoted from makes it ABSOLUTELY CLEAR that women CANNOT be prohibited from coming to Mosque, and definitely in some responses they make it clear that women SHOULD be encouraged to come to Eid Salah.
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#85 [Permalink] Posted on 15th March 2017 17:50
Quote:
Mufti Mangera (HA) has been an Imam for almost 2 decades in America and UK and he has NEVER given that opinion so how is he guilty of double standards, "Genius"?


Again you are resorting to name calling. You should take a break. You seem to just want to attack me. I am responding because you are misrepresenting what I wrote. Remember you made a big fuss about misquoting? I clearly stated in the OP:
Quote:


Mufti Abdur Rahman Mangera seems to maintain a standard and doesn't have one set of rules for ladies when it comes to eid and masjid and another set of rules for other events, and he doesn't hide it.
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#86 [Permalink] Posted on 15th March 2017 17:58
Concerned wrote:
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You still don't get it. The difference is in the sanctity of the masjid and the place of the other "parties"

I quoted salafi for the gatherings because it wasn't easy to find one that is well articulated within our schools of thought.

The point is, you are mixing different opinions on attending the Masjid and attending a whole new world of gatherings. They are totally different dude.
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#87 [Permalink] Posted on 15th March 2017 18:02
Quote:
The difference is in the sanctity of the masjid and the place of the other "parties"

OK simple. Prove this to me. Prove to me that the sanctity of the masjid is the cause for a special prohibition of women coming to the Masjid. But then how would this apply to Eid salah in another location? Prove it to me using statements of the Ulama, or Quran and hadith.
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#88 [Permalink] Posted on 15th March 2017 18:13
Concerned wrote:
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Can I suggest this thread
www.muftisays.com/forums/27-sharing-portal/9547-women-att...
Quote:
The long routes are often needed when common sense isn't understood with the complete explanation and reasoning provided.
Some people are stuck to their understanding that even if you present them with their own findings, its still wrong.

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#89 [Permalink] Posted on 15th March 2017 18:19
Insha Allah I will review the thread again. But since according to you this issue is common sense and the long route is not needed, I have provided you with a simple request. Just provide me the proof of your statement. It cant be that hard.

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#90 [Permalink] Posted on 15th March 2017 18:29
Concerned wrote:
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Let me get this straight!

Are you asking for a different between a Masjid a Normal ordinary Building?

And you don't think that you are a Troll?
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