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#61 [Permalink] Posted on 14th March 2017 16:16
I am saying that there is no exclusive restriction on women coming to the masjid due to their gender , just like they are restrictions for mensturating women are those in the state of janabah.. If there are, bring the evidence.

I am not passing a ruling here , I am speaking fron what i understand.

Women currently aren't allowed to attend the open air eid salah ( and masjid) due to the fact they are women so they should remain in the house unless there is need to go out, and they can be a cause of fitnah for themselves and the men present . This restriction is not limited to going to eid salah (or the masjid) but it applies to anywhere they are going. So how can you say that women aren't allowed to come to eid salah at a location set up similarly to JKN due to no need for them being there, and due to being a source of fitnah, but at the same time you encourage them to come to a family fun day. Is there a need for them to come to the family fun day, and why is there less fitnah at the family fun day as opposed to eid salah at a similar location.

This is my point, please answer yes or no if you understand what I am saying. If anyone understands my point please agree with this post. Not to show you agree with me but just to show yo understand the point .
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#62 [Permalink] Posted on 14th March 2017 16:36

Concerned wrote:
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All in due time once you give me your reasons of labelling the event at Bradford as hypocrisy. What is your basis?

All I am saying is that this event had nothing to do with women attending Mosques, if you misunderstood admit it and move on so we can discuss the crux of your queries.

You can’t label people and their actions s hypocritical without providing some evidence to back your claims.

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#63 [Permalink] Posted on 14th March 2017 16:48
I tried my best to give you my basis in the last post. In the interest of the discussion I will go back to answering your questions.

Quote:
It’s not a Mosque so there are no Shariah (based) restrictions.


Its only logical to conclude that you are saying there is shariah based restriction (meaning prohibition) for women going to the masjid. If you are not saying this make it clear. If you are ,provide evidence. This is the main point of misunderstanding.

Quote:
The building fully caters for Sisters.


A mosque can also fully cater for sisters.
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#64 [Permalink] Posted on 14th March 2017 16:56
Quote:
All I am saying is that this event had nothing to do with women attending Mosques, if you misunderstood admit it and move on so we can discuss the crux of your queries
.
Let us disagree on this point. Yes the two situations are different but I would not say they have nothing to do with each other.

I put it to you that the same cannot be said for eid salah. This event can be compared to eid salah.
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#65 [Permalink] Posted on 14th March 2017 17:07

Concerned wrote:
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Nope there is nothing about agreeing to disagree.

  1. We agree that there are no restrictions on woman (simply based on Gender) on visiting a particular building. JKN is a building not a Mosque and the event did NOT take place at Eid.

  2. So why is an event at JKN comparable to restrictions on visiting a Mosque or Eid Salah (even if there are restrictions in place).

Let’s suppose that the Deobanees do place restrictions (which we will explore shortly) on attending Mosques and Eid Salah HOW ON EARTH did you compare the JKN event and labelled the actions as hypocritical when the supposed restrictions (which you speak of) don’t apply in this case.

Multiple people for days have gone to great lengths to make you see this but you don’t seem to be getting it and insisting on you original charges of double standards and hypocrisy, based on what?

  1. It wasn't in a Mosque
  2. It wasn't at Eid time

So why are you comparing Apples and Oranges?  EVEN if we temporarily agree with your assertions that Deobandees have wrongly put restrictions on both of these. How have Deobandees violated their own rules?

Accusing someone of hypocrisy is a serious accusation in Islam so what is your basis for it?

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#66 [Permalink] Posted on 14th March 2017 17:23
Quote:
We agree that there are no restrictions on woman (simply based on Gender) on visiting a particular building. JKN is a building not a Mosque and the event did NOT take place at Eid.


Would you also agree that there are no restrictions on woman (simply based on Gender) that cause them to be banned exclusively from visiting a Masjid?

Would you also agree that there are no restrictions on woman (simply based on Gender) that cause them be banned from exclusively performing Eid Salah in the open?

Quote:
So why is an event at JKN comparable to restrictions on visiting a Mosque or Eid Salah (even if there are restrictions in place).


It is comparable based on the nature of restriction. Show me these restrictions on women,the basis of these restrictions and whether these restrictions are exclusive to the Masjid and Eid salah? I repeat this is the point of contention. If you answer this I will be able to see where if I understood the matter incorrectly.

Where have I used the term hypocrisy?
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#67 [Permalink] Posted on 14th March 2017 17:52
Quote:
So why are you comparing Apples and Oranges? EVEN if we temporarily agree with your assertions that Deobandees have wrongly put restrictions on both of these. How have Deobandees violated their own rules?


This is incorrect. I was not speaking about whether the restrictions placed on women going to Masjid and Eid Salah were wrong or right. I was saying be consistent. The same rules for Eid Salah should apply for the family fun day.
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#68 [Permalink] Posted on 15th March 2017 07:24
Concerned wrote:
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Based on what? What is your Islamic Evidence? Is that just your opinion and then based on your opinion you have decided to label others of having double standards?
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#69 [Permalink] Posted on 15th March 2017 13:20
This post has been reported. It could be due to breaking rules or something as simple as bad use of bbcodes which breaks the page format. We will attend to this soon.
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#70 [Permalink] Posted on 15th March 2017 13:25
This post has been reported. It could be due to breaking rules or something as simple as bad use of bbcodes which breaks the page format. We will attend to this soon.
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#71 [Permalink] Posted on 15th March 2017 13:26
You have refused to answer any of my questions, now if you disagree with anything you have to bring the evidence.
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#72 [Permalink] Posted on 15th March 2017 13:29

OK so your playing Games and being a Troll.

You have taken snippets of information and opinions of certain Ulama and you are applying it to actions of other Ulama and labelling it as double standards.

I will simply ignore your further requests and carry on with how I am answering this query.

The simple ONE LINE answer is this:

What makes you think that the Ulama who organised and ran the program at Bradford agree with opinions which you are quoting?

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#73 [Permalink] Posted on 15th March 2017 13:40
I can also accuse you of playing games. You have refused to provide the reason why women are banned from eid salah or the masjid. Its quite simple, provide the reasons and I can see if my reasoning was wrong.

I have only posted those snippets becasue you refuse to answer my questions and you keep demanding evidence, after I repeatedly explained my point.

Quote:
I will simply ignore your further requests and carry on with how I am answering this query.

You no there is know point in carrying on. My point has been made and you keep asking me for evidence, while ignoring all of my requests.

Quote:
What makes you think that the Ulama who organised and ran the program at Bradford agree with opinions which you are quoting?


Well Muadh, all you have to do is show me the opinion that is followed by the Ulama who are involved in the advertised events. Show me why they ban women from attending eid salah and masjid if it has nothing to do with fitnah and women coming out of their homes. Show me what special restriction there is regarding women which is exclusive to the masjid and eid salah, and does not apply elsewhere.

And also that question can be asked when any individual Ulama decides to do something contrary to the well known view or for example, arranges an Eid Salah and fun day for families. The Ulama organizations come out and condemn the Individual Ulama and the event, but then why do they think that the individual Ulama agrees with the opinions expressed by them?

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#74 [Permalink] Posted on 15th March 2017 14:56
Quote:
Well Muadh, all you have to do is show me the opinion that is followed by the Ulama who are involved in the advertised events

Well brother Concerned, why don't you email the Ulama who are involved and ask them directly for their opinions and why.

If you can't find their emails, name the Ulama, and I'm sure the embers can direct you to their websites where you can find contact details.

I've had enough of this thread and it hasn't gotten us anywhere.

I don't know how the mods put up with this!
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#75 [Permalink] Posted on 15th March 2017 15:10

WOMEN IN THE MOSQUE DIALOGUE: POINT 3- WOMEN & MOSQUE?

In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful.

As-salāmu ‘alaykum wa-rahmatullāhi wa-barakātuh

Now we get to an important point in our discussion. Does Islam “discourage” WOMEN from going to the MOSQUE (remember this word) on account of gender alone?

A-B-S-O-L-U-T-E-L-Y

The primary purpose of a MOSQUE is to establish Salah. When we look at the verses of the Qur’aan and Ahadeeth, we usually (and overwhelmingly) find Prayer is to be established and not just prayed, for example:


 
[2:43] And establish prayer and give zakah and bow with those who bow [in worship and obedience].

There is consensus in Islam that prayer in congregation is much superior to praying alone and this is narrated in many Ahadeeth and as just a single example:

  The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Prayer in congregation is twenty seven times better than prayer prayed individually.” [Sahîh al-Bukhârî (645) and Sahîh Muslim (650)]

Then on Fridays it is on obligation on MEN to go to a MOSQUE

So what about WOMEN where are they supposed to pray? Hadeeth is pretty clear:

 عن أُمِّ حُمَيْدٍ امْرَأَةِ أَبِي حُمَيْدٍ السَّاعِدِيِّ ( أَنَّهَا جَاءَتْ النَّبِيَّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ فَقَالَتْ : يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ ، إِنِّي أُحِبُّ الصَّلَاةَ مَعَكَ . قَالَ : قَدْ عَلِمْتُ أَنَّكِ تُحِبِّينَ الصَّلَاةَ مَعِي ، وَصَلَاتُكِ فِي بَيْتِكِ خَيْرٌ لَكِ مِنْ صَلَاتِكِ فِي حُجْرَتِكِ، وَصَلَاتُكِ فِي حُجْرَتِكِ خَيْرٌ مِنْ صَلَاتِكِ فِي دَارِكِ، وَصَلَاتُكِ فِي دَارِكِ خَيْرٌ لَكِ مِنْ صَلَاتِكِ فِي مَسْجِدِ قَوْمِكِ، وَصَلَاتُكِ فِي مَسْجِدِ قَوْمِكِ خَيْرٌ لَكِ مِنْ صَلَاتِكِ فِي مَسْجِدِي
 

Imam Ahmed narrated from Umm Humayd, the wife of Abu Humayd al-Saa’idi (RA), that she came to the Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) and said: "O Messenger of Allaah, I love to pray with you." He said: "I know that you love to pray with me, but praying in your house is better for you than praying in your courtyard, and praying in your courtyard is better for you than praying in the mosque of your people, and praying in the mosque of your people is better for you than praying in my mosque." [Ahmed]

Who was Umm Humayd (RA) and what did she do after this?

Umm Humayd (RA) wife of Abu Humayd al-Saa'idi (RA) is regarded as the great worshipper of Allah (SWT) even amongst the Sahabiyaat (RA) [عابدة من عابدات, صدر الإسلام] her desire to worship Allah (SWT) behind the Nabi (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) is natural but her actions after the response from Nabi (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) is vital for our believing Sisters to emulate. What did she do after that?

Imam Al-Hafidh Ibn Hajr Asqalani (RA)
  in his magnum opus al-Isaba fi tamyiz al-Sahaba, one of the most comprehensive dictionary of the Companions writes that she ordered a Musallah (prayer station) in the darkest corner of her residence and prayed there until she met Allah (SWT) i.e. she never again prayed at the Mosque!
 

فأمرت فَبُني لها مسجد في أقصى شيء من بيتها و أظلمه، فكانت تصلي فيه حتى لقيت الله تعالى

So what about WOMEN attending Eid Salah?

The main Hadeeth on the subject is this one:

 حَدَّثَنَا مُوسَى بْنُ إِسْمَاعِيلَ، قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا يَزِيدُ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ، عَنْ مُحَمَّدٍ، عَنْ أُمِّ عَطِيَّةَ، قَالَتْ أُمِرْنَا أَنْ نُخْرِجَ، الْحُيَّضَ يَوْمَ الْعِيدَيْنِ وَذَوَاتِ الْخُدُورِ، فَيَشْهَدْنَ جَمَاعَةَ الْمُسْلِمِينَ وَدَعْوَتَهُمْ، وَيَعْتَزِلُ الْحُيَّضُ عَنْ مُصَلاَّهُنَّ‏.‏ قَالَتِ امْرَأَةٌ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ، إِحْدَانَا لَيْسَ لَهَا جِلْبَابٌ‏.‏ قَالَ ‏ "‏ لِتُلْبِسْهَا صَاحِبَتُهَا مِنْ جِلْبَابِهَا ‏"‏‏.‏ وَقَالَ عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ رَجَاءٍ حَدَّثَنَا عِمْرَانُ، حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ سِيرِينَ، حَدَّثَتْنَا أُمُّ عَطِيَّةَ، سَمِعْتُ النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم بِهَذَا‏.‏
 

Sayyida Um `Atiya (RA) narrated that we were ordered to bring out our menstruating women and veiled women in the religious gatherings and invocation of Muslims on the two `Id festivals. These menstruating women were to keep away from their Musalla. A woman asked, "O Allah's Apostle (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) ' What about one who does not have a veil?" He said, "Let her share the veil of her companion." [Bukhari]
 

I have recorded plenty of Scholars who had a different opinion on Eid Salah

Nevertheless, let’s take this on face value and say that it is P-E-R-M-I-T-T-E-D for women to come for Eid Salah. It is STILL neither obligatory nor recommended or preferred and no special reward associated with it.

What am I trying to say?

  1. It is an obligation, Sunnah or Superior for MEN to pray in Congregation but no such injunction exists for Women. I have used 3 separate words in the sentence because there is indeed differences amongst Scholars if congregational Salah is an obligation or “superior”, everyone agrees that it is Sunnah.

  2. MEN have to go to a MOSQUE for Jumu'ah (or a Friday Prayer Facility if you want to be technical) and it is an obligation but no such requirement or obligation exists for women at all.

  3. It is neither an obligation, nor Sunnah nor any speriority for WOMEN to go the MOSQUE, in fact it is INFERIOR for a woman to go to a Mosque, although her Salah is valid.

 

WHAT ARE THE ERRORS OF THE BROTHER?

  1. The words of Nabi (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) are clear but offer no reasons and no explanations. The Fatwa of (Mufti) Ibn Adam (HA) and other Ulama may offer reasons (fear, Fitnah) but the Hadeeth is clear. Those are not in the Haeeth. Therefore, EVEN if those factors are addressed prayer of a Women in a MOSQUE will not change status. Brother is unable to distinguish the words of Nabi (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) from the explanation of Scholars. He simply is unable or unwilling (after days of discussions) to separate wood from the trees.
  2. Discourage doesn’t mean prohibition, prevention or invalidity. If a women does happen to pray in a MOSQUE and with congregation her prayer is perfectly valid. This Brother unable to fathom it and simply is unable or unwilling (after days of discussions) to separate wood from the trees.
  3. The event at Bradford DID NOT happen in a MOSQUE so the entire discussion is irrelevant but due to his haste and desire to accuse others he has gone headlong into a discussion and left trails of inconsistencies to be picked upon.
  4. The event at Bradford DID NOT happen at EID so the entire discussion is irrelevant but due to his haste and desire to accuse others he has gone headlong into a discussion and left trails of inconsistencies to be picked upon.
  5. Event at Bradford was still segregataed! I called a Brother and actually confirmed this before writing these words. There was no free-mixing, no men/women having a toast and a good time.I obtained good, solid reliable intelligence before rebutting this.

Ethically, if you are wrong or unable to understand something you plead error or lack of knowledge and move on. Unfortunately the massive ego of this Brother prevents him from admitting that so he continues to plough on despite repeated requests to substantiate himself. In the end what does he do? He trolls the forum by posting Fatawa from banned sites purporting them to be authentic and to back his claims.

He is a drama queen and wants attention so he trolls and trolls and stoops ever lower in his quest to show double standards.

So as I have asked multiple times, what is HIS ISAMIC PROOF of the event at Bradford a violation of any of the points above.

All I get is moaning and whining that I am no answering his question. He hasn’t posed a sensible question at all.

His (irrelevant and ridiculous point) is this:

  1. Since women are allowed for Eid (in his opinion)
  2. They should be allowed in a Mosque 24x7 and for events

Ignoring his (lack of intelligence) and ignorance for a minute:

  1. The event at Bradford is a very good example of events for Sisters
  2. Under the Guidance of Scholars
  3. Shariah Compliant
  4. Doesn’t contradict with any of the contradictions of Islam.

Why?

Because there is no prohibition of women attending a BUILDING while fulfilling laws of Hijab etc.

This guy just CANNOT seem to understand the difference between a MOSQUE and an ordinary building.  There is no need for days of discussions on a topic because there is NO CONTRADICTION HERE but the troll cannot help himself.

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