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women, masjid, dinners, fun days, double standards

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Muadh_Khan
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#16 [Permalink] Posted on 9th March 2017 19:29

Concerned wrote:
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After multiple exchanges you seem unable or unwilling to grasp the difference between Salah at a Masjid and an Islamic event at a “Non-Masjid”.

I don’t think there is anything else to discuss.

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#17 [Permalink] Posted on 9th March 2017 19:48
I am unwilling or unable to grasp that there is a special prohibition for women praying eid salah due to the salah it self. The Prophet sallalhu alayhi waslaam clearly encouraged women to come out for eid salah, and the fatwa I read said the women are prevented from attending due to fitnah.

So kindly explain what the prohibution stems from. That is the most important part of this discussion.

Jazka Allahu khair
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#18 [Permalink] Posted on 9th March 2017 23:02
i agree there are definitely double standards in this issue. if fitnah is the reason why women are not being allowed in to deo mosques then what the hell are they allowed to end non religous functions such as fundraisers and day outs? your more likely to get pervs and loose men and women attending these or more likely to get up to no good at these functions that in the masjid. i double very muslims are so scummy and vile that they will go to masjid and even have the audacity to contemplate flirting and messing about.

secondly espeiclly here in the uk i think its more neccessary than ever before to accomate women in masjids. lets face it with the freedoms and open society we live in men and women can do and go more or less anywhere they want. if we are going to close the masjid doors on them then dont go around crying and asking for taweez then they end up in bars clubs and pubs.

i accept its better for women to pray at home but in this day and age most women AND men spend most time at home just watchin filth on tv or surfing. its not like the times of umar رضي الله عنه where women and men would narrate hadith and teach islam at home.
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#19 [Permalink] Posted on 10th March 2017 12:20
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So I am curious as to what other reasoning there is to allow women to attend any event they please as long as they aren't at the masjid or praying salah. Please direct me to where to find reasons so that maybe I can retract my statement about double standards.


Why does there need to be another reason for the validity of protecting women? Is such a huge reason not enough for you?

Are you fully aware of the dangers? Why do you put the Masjid on the same level as other places of gathering?
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#20 [Permalink] Posted on 10th March 2017 14:05
Yasin wrote:
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Assalamu Alaikum Maulana, Jazak Allahu Khair for adding your input. If I am not understanding the issue, I would be grateful if you can help me see where I am going wrong.

What you quoted from me above was in response to bro. Muadh, who implied that the reason women aren't allowed to attend eid salah or Masjid is not due to segregation or fear of fitnah. He said "Even if you make it absolutely segregated and even the divide the air supply for Salah the original reservations remain.Do you get what I am saying? The issue regarding Salah is not due to segregation."

I responded by saying that the reason is due to fear of fitnah, and if it was not then share the reasons they are not allowed to pray eid salah. So I was only asking for other reasons because Muadh said they were other reasons.

Let me simplify the matter once again:

Scenario 1: A program (as advertised in the poster) consisting of lectures, fun activities and meals which is open to both men and women. Ulama approve of this and there are no objections.

Scenario 2: The same program above on eid day with the only addition being that women may join in the eid salah. Ulama will not approve of this and there will be many objections.

I say that the reason women are not allowed to go for eid salah is due to fear of fitnah. I also say Ulama would not approve of scenario 1 if there was fear of fitnah. So since there is no fear of fitnah in scenario 1, there should be no problem with scenario 2 and women praying eid salah, especially since eid Salah only happens twice a year.

Other people are saying the reason women are not allowed to pray eid salah is not due to fear of fitnah, and that you cannot compare eid salah with other deeni gatherings or dawats etc. I am therefore asking if there is anything inherently wrong with women performing the eid salah.

1) Is the prohibition for women to perform the eid salah due to the salah itself?

2) What are the reasons women aren't allowed to perform the eid salah?


If bro. Muadh or Maulana Yasin could answer, that would go a long way in clarifying the matter for me.


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#21 [Permalink] Posted on 10th March 2017 14:16

Concerned wrote:
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Brother,

At least quote me accurately I have been trying to say it for days! DO NOT jumble all Salah in the same Bracket.

I SAID:

Sunnah for normal and Jumuah is for women to pray at home. Some Fuqaha consider it permissable for women to attend Eid Salah while others don't.

Even if you make it absolutely segregated and even the divide the air supply for Salah the original reservations remain.

You MISUNDERSTOOD:

Muadh, who implied that the reason women aren't allowed to attend eid salah or Masjid is not due to segregation or fear of fitnah. He said "Even if you make it absolutely segregated and even the divide the air supply for Salah the original reservations remain.

Your Errors:

  1. Inability to distinguish between a Mosque and a “Non-Mosque”

  2. Inability to distinguish between daily, weekly Salah and Eid. (I have pointed out Eid is a special case BUT then you are unable to fathom that this special case occurs twice a year and not generally applicable)

  3. Inability to fathom that the superiority assigned by Nabi (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) towards Salah at home (for women) is categorical and not related to safety or segregation etc. EVEN if you have fully segregated, separated facilities the superiority still stands.

I have ZERO interest in debating with you but at least don't misquote me!

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#22 [Permalink] Posted on 10th March 2017 14:33
I am not debating with you I am only asking you to clarify what you are saying. My shortcoming may be that I did not express myself clearly enough for you. I made my point as clear as possible in my last post, yet you are going back to old posts. Just deal with the last post if you have information to share which would clarify the matter.

Quote:
Your Errors:

Inability to distinguish between daily, weekly Salah and Eid. (I have pointed out Eid is a special case BUT then you are unable to fathom that this special case occurs twice a year and not generally applicable)

I started out by noting the distinction between eid salah and other salah, and then I requested we deal with edi salah first to simpify matters. I said:

Quote:
I have not deliberately tried to change the topic. Let us separate women at eid salah and women at the masjid.

Quote:
What I am saying is if we were to have an event similar to those advertised , on eid day, where the only addition is women will pray eid salah, there would be objection to the events. So in other words it is fine for the women to come out to take part in such events once they make sure they do not pray salah.


Quote:
Would you be able to share the reasons why some fuqha consider it impermissible for women to attend eid salah?


Quote:
Actually all of the deobandi fatwas I see online state fear of fitnah as the reason for the prohibition of women attending eid salah.

Here Mufti ibn Adam even states this is the reason for women being prohibited from going to the masjid in general:

I am unwilling or unable to grasp that there is a special prohibition for women praying eid salah due to the salah it self. The Prophet sallalhu alayhi waslaam clearly encouraged women to come out for eid salah, and the fatwa I read said the women are prevented from attending due to fitnah
.


Quote:
So kindly explain what the prohibution stems from. That is the most important part of this discussion.

Jazka Allahu khair




Inability to fathom that the superiority assigned by Nabi (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) towards Salah at home (for women) is categorical and not related to safety or segregation etc. EVEN if you have fully segregated, separated facilities the superiority still stands.

Again you are bringing in the other saalah. You cannot be saying this is regarding eid salah as well? There is no eid salah at home and the Prophet Salalahu Alyhi Wasalam encouraged ladies to come out for eid salah. And besides, what does superiority of salah have to do with banning women from the Masjid? In any case please let us stick to eid salah.

I have ZERO interest in debating with you but at least don't misquote me!

I quoted you correctly , and I said what i thought you implied. I am sorry for not being cleat and drawing the wrong conclusion from what you said, and I am humbly requesting you to deal with my last post with the scenarios. That could bring the thread to a conclusion..
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#23 [Permalink] Posted on 10th March 2017 14:39

Concerned wrote:
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Don't misuqote me.

I think it should be easy for you to understand that.

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#24 [Permalink] Posted on 10th March 2017 16:06
Double standards, reasons, fitnah and what else?

If everything was so simple and logical, why do we wash the entire foot in wudhu, but when wearing leather socks (or similar) why do we WIPE only the TOP and NOT the BOTTOM?

The masjid has a high level in the Deen, just like Ramadhan does. So why do people let go of sinning in Ramadhan, but knowingly do it outside of Ramadhan? Is it the virtue of the Month? Can it not be the virtue of the Masjid?
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#25 [Permalink] Posted on 10th March 2017 20:08
I am not really sure what your post has to do with this topic. You are making it seem that I am questioning the deen and the ahadith. I am questioning the reasoning behind the decision of the Ulama to ban women from attending eid salah, but encourage them to come to a family fun day. And I am only questioning a small group of contemporary Ulama. All over the world Ulama from various backgrounds either encourage women to come for eid salah, or at the least allow them to come. Even the eaarlier views in various madhabs allow for old women and young girls to attend.

A group of Ulama say Mastorat Jamat is forbidden, does that mean we all have to obey them blindly and not question their decision? You could apply your statements to any situation in which someone asks a question just to shut them up and make them guilty.

Quote:
Double standards, reasons, fitnah and what else?


Muadh said that there are other reasons besides fitnah which are responsible for women being banned from Eid Salah. I just want him to provide the reasons

Quote:
If everything was so simple and logical, why do we wash the entire foot in wudhu, but when wearing leather socks (or similar) why do we WIPE only the TOP and NOT the BOTTOM?


There is evidence for these actions, so why question them unless there is other evidence to show othwerwise.

Quote:
The masjid has a high level in the Deen, just like Ramadhan does. So why do people let go of sinning in Ramadhan, but knowingly do it outside of Ramadhan? Is it the virtue of the Month? Can it not be the virtue of the Masjid?


There are many hadiths dealing with the virtue of Ramadan and what causes people to let go if sinning in Ramadan. Why come up with other theories unless you have evidence?

May be If I was questioning why it is more virtuous for women to pray at home than in the masjid, then you could have tried bringing those arguments against me. But then again, there are so many Ulama across the world who agree that women should pray at home, but yet they provide facilities for them to pray in the Masjid and do not ban them.
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#26 [Permalink] Posted on 11th March 2017 00:55
Concerned wrote:
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Exactly, there is evidence for it and logic isn't always the answer. Similarly, there is also evidence from Shariah showing dislike of women attending Salah, and there is also evidence of women going/coming to see a celebration/party (focused more on the Eidain) referring to the Hadith of the entertainers with the spears etc whilst the wife of the Prophet rest her chin on the noble shoulders of our beloved (saw).
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#27 [Permalink] Posted on 11th March 2017 02:01
abu mohammed wrote:
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Agreed, and there is also clear evidence that the Prophet Salalahu Alayhi Wasalam encouraged all women to come out for the Eid Salah, and the Ulama have various views on the issue, some saying it is Mustahab, permissible, makruh ( along with other views ) and some differentiating between old women, young women and young girls.

And once again my issue is that I would have thought those Ulama who say it is makruh for women to attend eid salah would also discourage them from attending events such as those advertised in the poster. This is where I speak of double standards, or perhaps inconsistency would have been a better term.

IF they are bending the rules for such events, then at least don't cry down those who are 'bending the rules' for Eid Salah, and make women going to Eid Salah as something completely evil.
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#28 [Permalink] Posted on 11th March 2017 10:07
There is no doubt that a woman’s prayer in her house is better for her than praying in the mosque, as is indicated by the Sunnah of the Prophet (Peace & Blessings of Allaah be upon Him). He said: "Do not prevent your women from going to the mosque, even though their houses are better for them." (Reported by Abu Dawud in al-Sunan, Baab maa jaa’a fee khurooj al-nisaa’ ilaa’l-masjid: Baab al-tashdeed fee dhaalik. See also Saheeh al-Jaami‘, no. 7458).
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#29 [Permalink] Posted on 11th March 2017 14:00
ayeshaahmad wrote:
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Notice it says do not prevent your women from going to the mosque.

Are you using this to suggest it is better for women to stay at home than to go for eid salah?
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#30 [Permalink] Posted on 11th March 2017 15:32
Concerned wrote:
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Mufti Taqi Usmani says
...
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