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women, masjid, dinners, fun days, double standards

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Concerned
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#1 [Permalink] Posted on 2nd March 2017 02:17
Assalamu alaikum

It is interesting to see the names of the ulama on those posters for gala dinners and family fun days. Just a little while back I personally heard Mufti AK Hosein say that it is forbidden for women to go to masjid. Apparently they can come to a fundraising dinner. I also personally heard Shaykh Abdur Rahim limbada say leave things as they are with respect to women and the maajid , we should consider ourselves fortunate. This was in a place where there is a blanket ban on women for eid salah and traveling ladies have to sit in the car while their husbands pray jumuah. Apparently they can come to a family fun day.

Mufti Abdur Rahman Mangera seems to maintain a standard and doesn't have one set of rules for ladies when it comes to eid and masjid and another set of rules for other events, and he doesn't hide it.
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#2 [Permalink] Posted on 2nd March 2017 14:19
salaam

you should write an email to every person on that list and see what their excuse is.
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#3 [Permalink] Posted on 2nd March 2017 15:04
Concerned wrote:
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www.muftisays.com/forums/76-the-true-salaf-as-saliheen/59...
abu mohammed wrote:
Apperently, Mufti Saab (Abdur Raheem Limbada) has said not to go to the Eid Prayer in the Park as it is Fitna. Mixture of male and female.
He has requested us not to go or to let the women folk go.


Double Standards? or is this because it's not the same as going for Salah for which there is evidence? But going to a market, bazar etc holds a different view?
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#4 [Permalink] Posted on 2nd March 2017 15:30
abu mohammed wrote:
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There may have been posibility of free mixing in that particular eid salah setting, but that does not mean that other eid salahs would come under the same ruling. His comments I am referring to were basically saying keep the women away, not "let's see how we can make arrangements to accomodate them without fitnah."

In this event being advertised I assume they are satisfied that sufficient arrangements are in place to prevent fitnah, which is why they are taking part. Why not do the same for eid salah where possible, so those who want to come can come and those who think its better to stay at home can do so.

You said there are different rules for salah and markets and bazars etc. Well these events are not like going to the market for a necessity, these events are encouraging women to come out and listen to lectures, eat dinner, and have family fun. And i get the impression from people tgat there is a specific prohibition for women to attend eid salah and masjid in general, but there is no prohibition for them to go anywhere else. This is what i am getting at. This is where the problem lies.

As far as i understand this is not the case, rather the same factors that prevent women from attending eid salah would prevent then from attending dinners and fun days. So the same way they put things in place to prevent fitnah so women can attend dinners and fun days, they can do the same for women who want to attend eid salah. Why make it seem so evil to attend eid salah but accomodate them at a family fun day? This is the double standard I am referring to.

Yes they are specific rules for regular salah. According to most it is better for women to pray regular salah at home in normal circumstances, but that does that equate to banning them completely? The same way you allow them to attend diners and fun days, why fight so hard to prevent designing the masjid to reduce fitnah and allow women who need to join the jamat to do so. Why allow then to attend lectures, dinners and fun days at other halls but fight so hard and make it so evil for then to be accommodated at a lecture at the masjid and then pray I jamat. Get my point?
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#5 [Permalink] Posted on 2nd March 2017 15:33

Concerned wrote:
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JKN is segregated, private premises with Halls for Prayers (exclusive exit/entry) and not a Mosque. How is the alleged Hanafi ruling for women attending Mosques (which I disagree with Btw) applicable to the event advertised above?

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#6 [Permalink] Posted on 2nd March 2017 15:41
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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Why is it that when there is an opportunity to design a masjid with full, proper segregation , people object to it? The same way women can be encouraged to attend the private premises withe segregated halls, can't the women access a properly segregated masjid to listen to a bayan or join the jamat, or perform a jummuah when necessary?

And women going to masjid is slightly different as there is the argument that is better for them to pray at home, but then why ban all women from alll open air eid salah. Yes if the particular salah is so crowded and the space is not enough that may be a different case.

Is there any need for the women to attend these events?
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#7 [Permalink] Posted on 2nd March 2017 15:50
Muadh Khan are you saying that in the hanafi madhab women are specifically prevented from attending masjid and eid salah no matter how segregated it is, but they are allowed to attend mixed segregated religious or irrelogious gatherings at any other venue? If so I will shut up.
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#8 [Permalink] Posted on 2nd March 2017 17:00
Concerned wrote:
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You have changed the topic and tried to seek a different question, read my question again.

Jzk
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#9 [Permalink] Posted on 9th March 2017 14:44
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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I have not deliberately tried to change the topic. Let us separate women at eid salah and women at the masjid.

1)In the same way the event has "segregated, private premises with Halls for Prayers (exclusive exit/entry) ", why is there objection when women participate in eid salah in a masjid / eid gah with similar facilities?

Why can't a masjid be designed with " segregated private premises with exclusive exit or entry" so women can attend lectures and classes at the masjid? With such facilities, when a lady has to perform any salah there she would be able to join the jamat.


A fatwa on askimam states
"to substantiate the prohibition of Mastooraat Jamaat with women going to the Masaajid and Eid Gaah is non-analogous. The prohibition is based on Fitnah which is clear in the case of the latter. That is not so in the Mastooraat Jamaat."

So there is clear fitnah in women going to eid gaah, but why is there no clear fitnah in women going to these advertised events . why can't the eid gah be set up in a similar fashion?
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#10 [Permalink] Posted on 9th March 2017 15:13
What I am saying is if we were to have an event similar to those advertised , on eid day, where the only addition is women will pray eid salah, there would be objection to the events. So in other words it is fine for the women to come out to take part in such events once they make sure they do not pray salah.
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#11 [Permalink] Posted on 9th March 2017 15:45
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Salah (Regular, Jumuah or Eid) is an event about which some of the Classical Fuqaha have deemed women attendance to be Makrooh.

Sunnah for normal and Jumuah is for women to pray at home. Some Fuqaha consider it permissable for women to attend Eid Salah while others don't.

Even if you make it absolutely segregated and even the divide the air supply for Salah the original reservations remain.

Do you get what I am saying? The issue regarding Salah is not due to segregation.

Ta'leem, Charity events are not Salah so as long as rules of segregation are followed then the default is of permission.

The event which are highlighting is not Salah but Salah "may" come into it due to timings.

The building is not a Masjid although Salah is prayed inside of it.

Do you not see that you are comparing apples and oranges ?

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#12 [Permalink] Posted on 9th March 2017 15:49
Would you be able to share the reasons why some fuqha consider it impermissible for women to attend eid salah?
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#13 [Permalink] Posted on 9th March 2017 16:05
Actually all of the deobandi fatwas I see online state fear of fitnah as the reason for the prohibition of women attending eid salah.

Here Mufti ibn Adam even states this is the reason for women being prohibited from going to the masjid in general: In my humble view (and who am I to have a viewpoint, hence what I intend to mention is merely through the blessings of my teachers), the main reasoning behind the classical Fuqaha’s dislike of women going to the Mosques for congregational prayers is the fear of what they term as “Fitna”. The term Fitna means: mischief, harm, corruption and generally the non-observance of the Shariah rulings. Almost all of the classical jurists state that due to widespread mischief and corruption, women no longer should be going for congregational prayers. The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) himself never forbade women from attending the Mosques; rather, he said that women should not be prevented from entering the Mosques. Hence, the jurists (fuqaha) have based their ruling on the position of Sayyiduna Umar and Sayyida A’isha (Allah be pleased with them both), and their position was based on the fear of mischief and harm."

So I am curious as to what other reasoning there is to allow women to attend any event they please as long as they aren't at the masjid or praying salah. Please direct me to where to find reasons so that maybe I can retract my statement about double standards.
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#14 [Permalink] Posted on 9th March 2017 18:03

Concerned wrote:
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As I said from the beginning that I disagree on this point of view but for the sake of argument let’s take this discussion on "apparent face value" that Fitnah is the main reason.

Three questions for you:

  1. Is there less Fitnah in our times or more Fitnah?
  2. If there was less Fitnah in the time of Sahabah (RA) was it due to purity of spirituality and closeness to Nabi (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) or any other reason (which we can replicate)?
  3. Regardless of both of the questions above, is it superior for a woman to pray Salah at home or at Masjid?

If you have specific injunction about Eid Salah (and women attending) its only twice a year what is the Islamic proof of applying it to the Masjid 24x7?

The only argument I am making here is that an Islamic event is not equal to Salah (in the Masjid). I don’t know why you can’t seem to be able to fathom that.

Nabi (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) told women that the most Salah for them is in the darkest corner of their house. I have no idea of the reason but I submit to it. Nabi (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) told me to pray 3 Rakaat of Maghrib, I have clue why it’s not 2 or 4.

The superiority of women praying at home will remain no matter how you design a Mosque and what measures you put in place.

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#15 [Permalink] Posted on 9th March 2017 19:17
Jazak Allah for the responses, I really want to understand where you are coming from. I want to separate praying regular salah in masjid from Eid salah.
Quote:
Nabi (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) told women that the most Salah for them is in the darkest corner of their house. I have no idea of the reason but I submit to it. Nabi (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) told me to pray 3 Rakaat of Maghrib, I have clue why it’s not 2 or 4.


I can also say that the Prophet salalahu alayhu said do not prevent the women from coming to the masjid, even if the prayer in their homes are better for them. I have no idea of the reason but I submit to it.

Quote:
The superiority of women praying at home will remain no matter how you design a Mosque and what measures you put in place.


We are not discussing whether it is more superior for women to pray at home or the masjid. If there is a properly designed ladies section in the masjid this does necessarily not mean that you are encouraging all ladies to come to the masjid at all times. You can still teach them what is best for them. Not banning them does not necessarily equate to encouraging all women to come at akl times.

I will answer your questions and proceed with the discussion in another post.
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