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women, masjid, dinners, fun days, double standards

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#121 [Permalink] Posted on 16th March 2017 16:37
There are so many problems with your argument, but the biggest one is that we are not discussing a woman going to visit her aunty. This is not comparable to events like those being discussed. A woman visiting her aunty is more like a woman visiting a shop. So your whole argument is flawed.

According to your logic throughout this thread:

JKN is NOT an aunty's house.
Visiting JKN is NOT visiting a family member.
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#122 [Permalink] Posted on 16th March 2017 16:55

Concerned wrote:
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Again your faulty LOGIC will let you down again when it clashes with the Hadeeth of Nabi (Sallaho Allaihe Wassallam) but a SHAMELESS individual like you will carry ON and ON and ON!

"ASSUMPTION"

I have put quotes around the word assumption to say that it’s a hypothetical assumption to make a point.

WOMEN ARE PERMITTED ON EID

EXPLICIT HADEETH FORBIDS COMPARING EID TO ANY OTHER DAYS!

You are now put in a bind because Eid is ONLY TWO DAYS of the Year and explicit Hadeeth forbids Muslims from having “Eid like days” or taking any injunctions about Eid and applying it outside of Eid.

عَنْ أَنَسٍ رضي الله عنه قَالَ قَدِمَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ الْمَدِينَةَ وَلَهُمْ يَوْمَانِ يَلْعَبُونَ فِيهِمَا ، فَقَالَ : مَا هَذَانِ الْيَوْمَانِ ؟ قَالُوا : كُنَّا نَلْعَبُ فِيهِمَا فِي الْجَاهِلِيَّةِ . فَقَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ : ( إِنَّ اللَّهَ قَدْ أَبْدَلَكُمْ بِهِمَا خَيْرًا مِنْهُمَا : يَوْمَ الْأَضْحَى ، وَيَوْمَ الْفِطْرِ

Anas bin Maalik (radi Allahu anhu) said: “The Messenger of Allah (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) came to Madinah and the people had two days when they would play and have fun. He said, ‘What are these two days?’ They said, ‘We used to play and have fun on these days during the Jaahiliyyah (Days of Ignorance). The Messenger of Allah (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said, ‘Allah has given you something better than them, the day of (Eid) Adhaa and the day of (Eid) Fitr.’”

JKN Bradford

  1. Did NOT happen at a Mosque
  2. Did NOT happen at Eid
  3. There was no Free-mixing, Music, Haram (so additonal) factors were not present

Concerned wrote:
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Sunshine! It would be correct if I made a claim to rely on LOGIC. I am not.

I am not relying on LOGIC at all. I am relying on explicit text to guide me. It’s your “faulty” logic, incorrect facts and faulty data which is leading you to wrong conclusion.

Now you are whinging and whining so when you can put together a coherent argument I will respond.

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#123 [Permalink] Posted on 16th March 2017 17:00
Bro, you are ignoring all my simple requests and now you are grasping at straws trying to prove me wrong, when its not even about me, its about the topic at hand. I know I said this before , but hopefully this time I will not be responding to you again, unless it is to correct a claim you make about what I said. And you are going in dangerous territory. You are proving your ideas direct from Quran and Hadith, when you are not qualified. Yes that is ok sometimes and in simple matters that are well known and have scholarly statements to back them up, but you are going overboard.
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#124 [Permalink] Posted on 16th March 2017 17:15

Concerned wrote:
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No problems and you are still wrong!

As I said that the DEFAULT for a Woman travelling is PERMISSABLE as long as (other) conditions are fulfilled:

www.askimam.org/public/question_detail/19800

Treat your wife to a vacation or an outing and spend some quality time with her. Find out what she likes and organize some activities with her. When taking such vacations, remember not to let your other family and jobs intervene. Let her feel that this time is especially for her. This will encourage her to confide in you.

The issue is discouragement of going to the Masjid by DEFAULT.

Other Halal travelling, visits etc are permissible by DEFAULT unless there is something else which makes it discouraging i.e. an external factor.

Reason for your Error?

You are thinking that the discouragement of going to the Masjid is DUE to external factors so you are trying to REMOVE the external factors and then arguing that the original discouragement no longer stands.

You are willing to butcher Qur’aan, Hadeeth, Logic, Opinions ANYTHING which stands in your way to get there.

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#125 [Permalink] Posted on 16th March 2017 17:19
Quote:
You are thinking that the discouragement of going to the Masjid is DUE to external factors so you are trying to REMOVE the external factors and then arguing that the original discouragement no longer stands.



Error. No one was discussing discouragement of going to Masjid. You brought that in because you have no contribution to make to the issue being discussed and do not want to admit it. I never argued whether it was encouraged or discouraged for women to go to Masjid. Of course you will not admit to this.
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#126 [Permalink] Posted on 16th March 2017 17:38
Concerned wrote:
I am questioning the reasoning behind the decision of the Ulama to ban women from attending eid salah, but encourage them to come to a family fun day.

As I mentioned before and others repeated it, the reasoning is based on many factors.

1: The Masjid is Sanctified.
2: Women were discouraged to attend the Masjid soon after the Prophet (saw) passed away in the era of the rightly guided Caliphs.
3: Venues (not Masaajids) are not sanctified places.
4: Going out to get together is Mustahab as pointed out and proven from Hadith.
5: Going out to an invitation to a get together is encouraged by Hadith. Not going is against the rights of a the Muslim who invited them.
6: The rules applied in Salah are completely different from those in a get together.
7: The place of the Eid Salah will hold the same value as that of the Masjid (need to verify) so same rules would apply.
8: Discouraging women (or Banning as you put it) from Salah can be proven from the Hadith of the Khulafa.

Commiting small sins in a get together will hold less of a sin in value than those commited inside of the Masjid, it's really very simple. That's why I asked on page two, why do people stop doing their regular sins inside of Ramadhan and then go back to them once Ramadhan was over. It's the value of the month! Similarly, its the value of the congregation (or Masjid).

Now please don't ask me to prove this to you with the words of Ulama, The Quran or Hadith. All has been presented, more or less.

Finally, Are you a Hanafi?
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#127 [Permalink] Posted on 16th March 2017 17:40

Concerned wrote:
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I know and I am trying to give you a way out of your STUPIDITY!

From your own OP and in your own words you have admitted that a few Muftees happen to be disagreeing on the matter, here is a breakdown from your own words:

  1. Mufti AK Hosein = Forbidden
  2. Shaykh Abdur Rahim limbada = Leave it
  3. Mufti Abdur Rahman Mangera = Permitted

If you had a mind and an ounce of intelligence you would have GRASPED the fact that 3 separate Ulama have 3 separate opinions. THEREFORE this is NOT a cut and dry Haram issue (as my head is telling me).

It must be nuanced and differences and that’s why 3 Ulama appear to have 3 separate opinions.

But since you lack Intelligence and are an egotistical pompous individual you went on to slander everyone by labelling them as having double standards

Concerned wrote:

It is interesting to see the names of the ulama on those posters for gala dinners and family fun days. Just a little while back I personally heard Mufti AK Hosein say that it is forbidden for women to go to masjid. Apparently they can come to a fundraising dinner. I also personally heard Shaykh Abdur Rahim limbada say leave things as they are with respect to women and the maajid , we should consider ourselves fortunate. This was in a place where there is a blanket ban on women for eid salah and traveling ladies have to sit in the car while their husbands pray jumuah. Apparently they can come to a family fun day.

Mufti Abdur Rahman Mangera seems to maintain a standard and doesn't have one set of rules for ladies when it comes to eid and masjid and another set of rules for other events, and he doesn't hide it.

An intelligent and humble person would have asked this:

  1. There seem to be 3 separate opinions from Scholars here
  2. How come going to fun day is permissible when going to Masjid (according to Mufti A K Hossen) is forbidden? Surely going to Mosque is more important than fun day.

The answer would have been this:

  • There is no BLANKET PROHIBITION of going to the Mosque or Eid (by extension) for Women. There is discouragement which several Ulama have interpreted on a graduating scale (throughout times). In the Hanafi Madhab (originally) there are slight variances between the students of Imam Abu Haneefa (RA), Imam Abu Yusuf (RA) and Imam Muhammad (RA). So some Ulama have declared it to extremely disliked (thus forbidden), some have declared it mildly disliked and others have declared it permissible (according to conditions).
  • Then some Ulama have extended this ruling (of extreme dislike) and applied it to many others matters because they have deduced since going to Masjid is more important then everything else….Everything else should be more so disliked
  • Then some Ulama who have given the ruling (of extreme dislike) said that NO this DOES NOT apply to travelling for seeking knowledge or reforming Islam (example Tableeghi Jamaat)
  • Then some Ulama have stated that the original injunction is NOT for impermissibility BUT for discouragement. They have also said that this applies to going to Mosque and NOT to any other purpose. All other purposes will be looked on (as individual case by case) basis.

But as I said ignorance and ego are a dangerous cocktail. I asked you to discuss the issues point by point but you continuously want to jump the gun so on top of your (inherent) discrepancies you are also impatient!

abu mohammed wrote:
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He is Modernist Troll who isn’t very bright!

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#128 [Permalink] Posted on 16th March 2017 17:52
Ignoring the insults which are uncalled for.

Quote:
8: Discouraging women (or Banning as you put it) from Salah can be proven from the Hadith of the Khulafa.


I will discuss your whole posts, but it must be made CLEAR that discouraging women can NEVER be the same as BANNING. Surely no one can disagree on this point. In fact according to the Hadiths on the issue, the Prophet Salalahu Alayhi Wasalam discouraged the women but he said do not prevent (ban) them. You must admit to this error.
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#129 [Permalink] Posted on 16th March 2017 17:54
Quote:
He is Modernist Troll who isn’t very bright!

I belive he is sincere in his plight and is seeking answers and therefore not from the Hanafi school or from the UK. Possibly ovelooking some statements and grasping what looks like an attemp of defamation upon himself. He is being protective of himself and trying to get to the bottom of why there is a difference of opinion on various levels. Maybe, that's why it's not so easy to understand the various positions within the Hanafi school and Ulama of different era's and areas and those compared to contemporary Ulama.

Allahu Alum.
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#130 [Permalink] Posted on 16th March 2017 17:58

abu mohammed wrote:
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If he was sincere then he would at least say look I jumped to conclusions about JKN (Bradford) event and I am Sorry but I still have questions and I don't get it.

He has the right to make a point and have opinions different to others,

He doesn't have the right to slander people.

I very clearly understand his confusion and his line of thinking. I neither agree nor will accept his slander and accusations.

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#131 [Permalink] Posted on 16th March 2017 17:58
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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you say: "There is no BLANKET PROHIBITION of going to the Mosque or Eid (by extension) for Women. There is discouragement which several Ulama have interpreted on a graduating scale (throughout times). In the Hanafi Madhab (originally) there are slight variances between the students of Imam Abu Haneefa (RA), Imam Abu Yusuf (RA) and Imam Muhammad (RA). So some Ulama have declared it to extremely disliked (thus forbidden), some have declared it mildly disliked and others have declared it permissible (according to conditions)."

this is false in Hanafi Fiqh.

hanafi fIqh says Makrooh and Allamah Ibn Aabideen states that Makrooh generally means Makrooh tahrimi.

and you hanafis know that makruh tahrimi and haraam are practically the same. that is why the hanafi jurists declare makruh tahrimi acts as haraam.

i said to you as a Hanafi: check BAdaai and Mabsoot.

the Hanafi fatwa is that of prohibition - HAraam - not just discouraged.

you should bring proof for your view of discouraged!

again - check Kifaayatul Mufti please
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#132 [Permalink] Posted on 16th March 2017 17:58
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Agree. BUT BUT BUT
 
Do you know what Aisha (raa) said after the demise of the Prophet (saw) about women attending the Masjid?
 
Do you know what length Umar رضي الله عنه went through to stop his wife from attending the Masjid?
 
Wasn't that PREVENTION from Umar رضي الله عنه?
 
You didn't answer me about which school of thought you follow!
 
EDIT: The Sahabi was not Umar رضي الله عنه, rather Zubayr رضي الله عنه
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#133 [Permalink] Posted on 16th March 2017 18:07
I was pointing out that discourage and ban are not the same . They have two very different meanings. They can not be used interchangeably as you did.

I am Hanafi, Deobandi you could say, but I am not of the type who believes that the way Deoband is the only correct way and Deoband views are the only correct views.
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#134 [Permalink] Posted on 16th March 2017 18:12

Concerned wrote:
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Then you have nothing to argue about. Take the opnion of Mufti Mangera (HA) and live your life. Mufti Saiful islam (HA) runs JKN and it isn't a Masjid

So again you have not done any research, wrongly deduced and then made slanderous accusations.

You can disagree but you CANNOT slander!

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#135 [Permalink] Posted on 16th March 2017 19:47
Quote:
Do you know what length Umar رضي الله عنه went through to stop his wife from attending the Masjid?

Wasn't that PREVENTION from Umar رضي الله عنه?


Is there anything online regarding what you are referring to. I have read about this but I want to see exactly what you are referring to.
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