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need confirmation about clash in Nizamuddin markaz in ramadhan

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#286 [Permalink] Posted on 9th July 2018 13:12
bint e aisha wrote:
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So you have a problem with it because you don't believe that it's divinely guided? Or you don't believe them to be on haqq? I'm just trying to understand..


if you are trying to understand then put your emotions aside and read what i wrote in its context. i was pointing out that the difference between the 2 shaikhs may have been political so doesn't pose much of a problem if that was the case. whereas if tabligh jamaat claims to be divinely guided then the current divide is problematic and may not be put down to just a political divide as both factions cannot claim to be divinely guided unless people want to claim that the split itself is divinely guided. my personal thoughts on tabligh jamaat is not relevant here.

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This is not true.. Yes there might be some individuals who believe that, but you can't blame the entire tableeghi jama'at for this. Even those who do participate in tableeghi jama'at do not leave "everything" for it. It is literally not possible. Infact when students want to go out in tableegh, they always say, "parhayi ke waqt tableegh ko chero nahi, aur parhayi ke baad tableegh ko choro nahi".


i can only go by my own experiences which were very intimate and extensive and spans over quite a few years. what most people see on the surface is not the same on the inside. i can start giving anecdotal evidence, but its not going to convince anyone if i cant provide hard evidence. i know what i heard and saw and i will never back down from it.


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What's wrong with submitting to the mashwarah of elders and how did you deduce that it's their "ultimate aim"? And what's wrong with dedicating one's life for tableegh? Why are you undermining this effort? I too have some issues with the methodology of the jama'at but that does not mean that I start criticizing and attacking them. There is so much good in the tableeghi jama'at that it simply outweighs the bad. These tableeghis spend their own time, their own money and call people to salah. There's no other group which does that. They do not raise funds like others, they do not ask for any favor..they spend their own money and go out to remote areas just to give them dawah, to call them towards Allah. We cannot doubt their sincerity..infact we should be grateful to them for they are doing the work of Prophets AS.


on the surface you are more or less correct, but their reality on the inside is different.
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#287 [Permalink] Posted on 9th July 2018 13:51
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if you are trying to understand then put your emotions aside and read what i wrote in its context.


I myself am not a part of tableeghi jama'at so why would I be emotional! I replied because you were just having a go at them.

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i was pointing out that the difference between the 2 shaikhs may have been political so doesn't pose much of a problem if that was the case. whereas if tabligh jamaat claims to be divinely guided then the current divide is problematic and may not be put down to just a political divide as both factions cannot claim to be divinely guided unless people want to claim that the split itself is divinely guided. my personal thoughts on tabligh jamaat is not relevant here.


I am not really sure what you mean by the term divinely guided, but that's a very weak argument, brother. Hazrat Thanvi and Hazrat Madani differed on the basis of Islam; we can't just call it political.
There are splits almost everywhere, with every deeni jama'at. It's not something unique to tableeghi jama'at, so we can't use it against them.

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i can only go by my own experiences which were very intimate and extensive and spans over quite a few years. what most people see on the surface is not the same on the inside. i can start giving anecdotal evidence, but its not going to convince anyone if i cant provide hard evidence. i know what i heard and saw and i will never back down from it.

on the surface you are more or less correct, but their reality on the inside is different.


Ok then could you enlighten me on the inside reality?
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#288 [Permalink] Posted on 9th July 2018 15:34
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sorry, but i just cant be bothered anymore. this thread should suffice to give you an idea based on the open antics of the 'elders' and 'buzroogs' and 'purana sathis' of tabligh jamaat. what people are seeing now is just the surface. if they are like this on the surface then you should be able to use your intellect and understand that its a reflection of whats below the surface.
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#289 [Permalink] Posted on 9th July 2018 15:58
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by other side you mean dewsbury markaz et al?

questions for all...

why did they want to disrupt the blackburn ijtima? were they preaching a different deen in the blackburn ijtima? were they calling to falsehood? did the aalmi shura try to disrupt the ijtima they had in dewsbury markaz?
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#290 [Permalink] Posted on 9th July 2018 16:14
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I really am very sorry about the experiences that you have had with the tablighi jamat (and tasawwuf and possibly other efforts of deen). I am in no way making light of what you have been through.

Maybe Allah taala has destined for you some other effort of deen, which is why you were subjected to those very hard times. There is khair in everything that a believer undergoes.

Those on the inside will claim divine guidance, while those on the outside know that it is an ijtehadi effort towards reform, because all the usool and furoo (foundations and peripherals) of deen have been established, and the amal of tableegh cannot be considered a part of shariah. They are simply a means of reviving the shariah.
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#291 [Permalink] Posted on 9th July 2018 16:25
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This argument is as ridiculous as the one used by kuffar "ISIS are Muslims and they kill people, therefore Islam is brutal".

One should keep in mind that everyone across the world is involved in the effort of tableeghi jama'at and millions of people have benefitted from it, and that is a clear sign of its acceptance.
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#292 [Permalink] Posted on 9th July 2018 16:30
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I fail to understand the logic behind this antagonistic line of questioning. They are answerable for their deeds; we are answerable for ours.

If we feel that the work is right for us, we do the work. Which side do we pick? Pick the one that we feel more affinity towards.

If we feel the work is not compatible with our mijaaz, we take up some other effort of deen. But, we make dua for this effort and all other efforts of deen.
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#293 [Permalink] Posted on 9th July 2018 16:47
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brother, when i was with tabligh jamaat and tassawuf i was in a great position. the only thing i found hard was on my conscious.

in tabligh i was VERY close to the elders and was a very trusted member. i would accompany the elders in jamaat and do their khidmat. i would sit with them in number 5 (the main office in dewsbury markaz) and was privy to their mashweras. i could have used my position to my benefit. had i stayed with them i could have used tabligh for my own gains like many people do. instead i chose to go against the grain even though it was to my disadvantage.

i joined the other effort and found many issues with that as well. i spoke out against that and ended up in prison for it. but alhamdulillah it only made me stronger.

in tassawuf i was close to the shaikh and even moved with my family to be near the shaikh. again i could have used my position to my advantage. however, i could not reconcile some of the things that i heard and witnessed so i was never at peace. eventually some people decided to leave the shaikh and i went with them.

i know it seems that i went jumping from one place to another, but i could not fully be a part of them due to many problems i saw in them. maybe i am looking for a haqq that i will never find in this zamana? nowadays i just keep myself to myself and my family. its a lonely isolated existence, but i personally can see no other way.
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#294 [Permalink] Posted on 9th July 2018 16:55
bint e aisha wrote:
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everyone across the world is not involved with tabligh jamaat. tabligh jamaat are not the only organisation that carry out tabligh. tabligh is done in many forms. as well as the effort of tabligh (not to be confused with tabligh jamaat) there are many other efforts taking place such as dawah, charity, social work, establishing masjids and madrasahs, islamic literature, events, sermons, jihad, dawah to non muslims, nurturing new muslims, etc.

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#295 [Permalink] Posted on 9th July 2018 17:03
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Ok I used the wrong word. My bad.

xs11ax wrote:
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I genuinely feel sorry about what you've been through. Allah ta'ala will recompense it in the hereafter.

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nowadays i just keep myself to myself and my family. its a lonely isolated existence, but i personally can see no other way.

:thumbsup: you're just following what Rasulullah صلى الله عليه وسلم asked us to do in times of fitnah:

"Keep to your house, control your tongue, accept what you approve, abandon what you disapprove, attend to your own affairs, and leave alone the affairs of the generality."
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#296 [Permalink] Posted on 9th July 2018 17:09
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what do you understand about the other faction/dewsbury markaz trying to disrupt the blackburn ijtima solely because they are a different group? what issue did dewsbury have with this? was blackburn preaching a different deen? was blackburn preaching falsehood?

dewsbury has a history of trying to disrupt other efforts. i am from batley and witnessed this many times myself. talk to the senior ulama of batley. maybe they might open up to you and reveal what dewsbury tried to do when other ulama/efforts tried to organise the muslims of batley/dewsbury.
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#297 [Permalink] Posted on 9th July 2018 17:23
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I do not question any of your assertions. Everything you have said about the failings in the markaz has been corroborated by other independent sources.

In all efforts of deen, there is much safety in restricting ourselves to striving with the awwam (general folk). This is a common pattern where good natured people have risen to ranks and interacted with the seniors, they have been severely off put. This is in tableegh, in khanqahs, in madaris. Some of these people have preferred seclusion, such as yourself, which is good, and some have demoted themselves to steering clear of the upper ranks and working with the common folk. This is still a struggle for most of them.

The work of tableegh benefits because of the ikhlaas of the common folk. The seniors will be answerable for their shortcomings, but what they do does not have a very large impact on the effort of the awaam who are oblivious of the goings on at the top levels.
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#298 [Permalink] Posted on 9th July 2018 20:13
xs11ax wrote:
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Asalamualaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu,

Brother we are all in the same boat. Just Keep making duaa for protection and death with Imaan. Read Momin Ka Hathyar morning and evening, it has alot of Masnoon protection duaas. Such troubling times.

A Buzurg narrated this:

Hadhrat Mahmood Shah
(Rahmatullah alayh), who
was a Wali of Allah Ta’ala
not so long ago, said: “In every
age one of the Asmaaul
Husna (The Beautiful Names
of Allah Ta’ala) pervades the
world. The effects of that
Name become manifest on
all. All affairs of the world
are influenced by the pervading
effects of that Name.
In the present age, Allah’s
Name, Mudhiel (The One who
leads astray whomever He
wills) Jalle Jalaalahu, pervades
the world. It is for this
reason that the Ahl-e-Kamaal
(genuine Ulama and Sulaha)
due to the effects manifested
by this Name are not devoid
of subtle evils and prohibitions.”

This explains the deviance
of even genuine senior Ulama
who due to short-sightedness
and failure to apply their
minds in reflection, commit
the grave error of laying the
foundations for future acts
of bid’ah. The Ahl-e-Kamaal
mentioned by Hadhrat
Mahmood Shah
(Rahmatullah alayh) refer to Akaabir Ulama, not to
bogus molvis and
sheikhs. Some among the Ahle-Kamaal
among our
very recent Akaabir had
unwittingly initiated
bid’aat.
Hadhrat Maulana
Ashraf Ali Thanvi
(Rahmatullah alayh)
had taken to task seniors
who introduce acts of
bid’ah.
They were bowled over
by the sweet, deceptive
explanations of their
students / mureeds and
were ensnared into
granting permission.
These are the kinds of
issues – evils and prohibitions
– into which the
Ahl-e-Kamaal become
ensnared. In this era
which is a veritable spiritual
minefield, it is of
imperative importance
for the genuine Ulama to
exercise extreme caution
regarding initiation of
practices. Regardless of
how ‘beautiful’ and how
‘beneficial’ a new practice
may outwardly appear,
the safest course is
to steer clear and to rigidly
adhere to the ways
and methods of the Salafus
Saaliheen.

Keep crying and trying. Allaah Ta'ala will InshaAllaah Ta'ala help soon.
We are living in an era about which Rasulullah (Sallallahu alayhi
wasallam) said: “The one who will hold on to the Deen will be like one
who holds a burning coal."

May Allah Ta’ala keep you and all of us with aafiyat.
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#299 [Permalink] Posted on 9th July 2018 21:11
abuzayd2k wrote:
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salaam

i have tried that. a couple of years ago i went on 3 days jamaat a few times. did nusrat of jamaats. did some local work. intended to take my son to jamaat with me. but i was completely put off by the local purana sathis and zimmedars in the jamaat. i love the work, but cant deal with many of those who take part. i first went in jamaat when i was 12 years old in 1989. it was so different then compared to now. definitely the help of allah was with the work then.
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#300 [Permalink] Posted on 10th July 2018 04:36
Today the tableegh of tablerghi jamaat is just the tableegh of their own jamaat.
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