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#76 [Permalink] Posted on 25th August 2015 13:59
I actually took the time to write Khlafat-O-Mulookiyat (latest edition) since Hazrat Abdullah1 (DB) raised some queries. I paid special attention to Maulana Maududi (RA) answering objections upon the book raised during his lifetime.

Jzk
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#77 [Permalink] Posted on 25th August 2015 15:57
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Tumhari ye approaching style hee argument ka style hey mia khaan.
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#78 [Permalink] Posted on 25th August 2015 16:02
here is quote for the benefit of everyone.

Whoever is in the prime of his youth and finds himself able to refrain from, getting into argumentation then he should make abundant shukr,
Whoever has passed the age of 40 and finds himself consistently getting embroiled in Argumentation he should make abundant istighfar.
Because for the young person it is easy to get into argumentation, and very difficult to abstain from it, and for the one over 40 it should be easier to restrain himself, and if he is unable to do so then it is time for serious introspection.
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#79 [Permalink] Posted on 25th August 2015 16:36
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Assalamu alaikum,

I understand your being surprised and forgive you for calling me a liar.

The references I provided are actually comprehensive in nature. For example, they not only talk about respecting differences; they also talk about how the Mashaikh - who had major political differences and campaigns - dealt with one another on a personal level.

I didn't defend anyone's political position. I didn't defend anything for that matter. My post on these people - including Maududi Sahib - and positions was neutral.

Furthermore, my post highlights the actual reason why the Ulama of Deoband have rejected the philosophy of Maududi Sahib. It's a matter of aqaid. Aqaid comes before politics.

Therefore, this cannot be compared with the political disputes of the Ulama.

It's apparent that you don't agree with either one or both of the Ulama in question. You believe that you're correct based on the facts. That is a position on political policy that others may differ with based on their interpretation of the situation.


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#80 [Permalink] Posted on 25th August 2015 18:50
10.SIR SYED AHMED KHAN - TWO QISSAS
Something else along the same lines comes to mind:
Sir Syed Ahmed Khan's name had cropped up in discussion. Hadhratwala (r.a.) then commented, "People are strange. When some fault of a person is noticed, all the good in him is ignored. All the good gets washed down the drain. One should not do this. One should bear in mind the good in him also. One should not have both eyes closed, but keep one eye open at least. Do not totally condemn a person because of his worldliness. A dunyadar (worldly person) may have qualities of tolerance and benevolence, constancy and faithfulness, to a degree not found in the deendar (religious-minded)."

Syed Ahmed Khan was his actual name. The "Sir" in front was attached when the English conferred a knighthood on him. Sir Syed Ahmed Khan had a reputation for being a worldly person (dunyadar). He had some fine qualities and he was a well-wisher of the Muslim community. However, this concern of his was like that of "an immature friend". This concise description was given by Hadhratwala (r.a.), who then continued, "But some qualities in him deserve to be praised." Hadhratwala (r.a.) then went on to relate two incidents.

Before continuing, let me ask you to give these incidents some thought. Use your sense of judgement. These are all matters concerned with islah. These incidents were not meant as entertainment - Hadhratwala's (r.a.) khanqa was no cinema for entertainment. Every talk had some message, some lesson of a unique nature. The whole object of relating qissas is to take a lesson. The Hadith shareef states:
Fortunate is that person who derives the best of lessons from others.

The Qur'an shareef has numerous qissas concerning the kuffar and mushrikin, the ahle kitab (Nasara and Yahud), and the munafiqin. The purpose is to teach a lesson: These were people who had the truth explained to them time and again, but they refused to take heed. Just see how they were dealt with. So, O Muslims, save yourselves from a similar fate. See that you do not behave like them, for Allah Ta'ala's system is such that eventually His punishment descends on the disobedient. Take note that the punishment of Allah Ta'ala is severe. Do not be fooled into thinking that the respite granted while sins are being committed is a sign of condonation. No! It is Allah Ta'ala's system to give respite initially, before His wrath descends. On the other hand, look at the sincere Sahaba (r.a.): Because of their good deeds they were treated differently. On occasions they were assisted by mala'ekah and their hearts were strengthened with divine inspiration (ilham), so that they remained steadfast at times of trials and tribulations.

There are lessons in these. Fortunate is that person who can derive lessons from others: to be able to see how the good were dealt with and thereby try to improve; and to be able to see the way in which evil-doers were punished and thereby abstain from evil.

Let us now go the qissas related by Hadhratwala (r.a.).
THE FIRST QISSAH: A person applied for a post to the governor. This was during the time of British rule. In his application the person falsely stated that he was the son-in-law of Sir Syed Ahmed Khan. He was told to present himself for an interview on a certain day. In the meantime the English governor sent a wire to Sir Syed Ahmed Khan wanting to know if the applicant was his son-in-law.
Sir Syed Ahmed Khan realised that it was some impostor, but replied, "Yes, he is my son-in-law." The governor, having established the applicant's relationship to one so well-known to the British, gave him an excellent post.
During his leave this impostor son-in-law arrived at the residence of Sir Syed Ahmed Khan. Sir Syed Ahmed Khan had never seen him before and, therefore, did not recognise him. "Who are you?"
The impostor replied, "I am that liar who passed himself off as your son-in-law to obtain a post with the governor."
Sir Syed Ahmed Khan said, "That is no problem. Now what I cannot do is get you married to my daughter to make you my actual son-in-law. You are already married. Yes, what I can do is adopt your wife as my daughter as from today. So now you are, in reality, my son-in-law."

Hadhratwala (r.a.) told us that as long as he lived, Sir Syed Ahmed Khan treated this adopted daughter as his own. Whenever he called his other daughters home he called her too. She and her husband received the same consideration that his own daughters and their husbands received.
"He was a dunyadar," Hadhratwala (r.a.) commented, "but see how faithfully he kept up this relationship. Such faithfulness is rarely found even amongst those who are deendar."

It is no easy task to maintain a relationship in a faithful manner - what is called nibhahna. Young people do not observe this relationship in respect to their fathers; and mureeds do not observe this relationship in its correct context with their sheikhs. One finds that it does not take much for a person to feel offended, and the next thing is that he leaves everything and off he goes.

THE SECOND QISSAH: This qissah is also worth listening to carefully, and pondering over.
It is a hot summer's day. Sir Syed Ahmed Khan is lying relaxed on a couch in his room. A visiting friend from Hyderabad is lying similarly relaxed on another couch nearby. Sweet-scented grass screens hang on one side: a servant stands on the other side of the screens and sprinkles water onto them from time to time, while tugging on the strings of ceiling fans, keeping them in constant motion, causing a cool breeze to pass through the room. The glass doors to the room are closed. In line with the doors, a short distance away, is a well.
A beggar comes along, stops at the well and lays down his bundle. Sir Syed Ahmed Khan observes the arrival of the beggar. Being quick-witted, he sums up the situation and remarks to his friend, "Just watch. This beggar is going to change his clothes and pose as a durwesh and come to us. But I will not give him a single paisa!"
Just as Sir Syed Ahmed Khan has predicted, the beggar takes out another set of clothes from his bundle, takes off the garments he is wearing, and dresses himself as a durwesh. He walks to the door of the room and knocks loudly and confidently. Such people are not the timid type. Sir Syed Ahmed Khan, true to his word, ignores the knock. However, such beggars cannot take a hint. The knocking becomes more vigorous and persistent, as if it is a matter of life and death.
Sir Syed Ahmed Khan is flustered. Reluctantly he orders the servant to open the door and allow the "durwesh" in. The "durwesh" enters, makes salaam, calmly seats himself on an empty couch, and starts speaking to Sir Syed Ahmed Khan.
However Sir Syed Ahmed Khan, after giving a very cursory reply to the salaam, pays him no further attention. Seeing this indifference, the voice of the "durwesh" suddenly becomes sharp and high-pitched. "Do you not recognise who I am? I am that person who has had the honour of visiting such-and-such!" The person whose name he takes - he must have picked it up somewhere - was none other than the peer of Sir Syed Ahmed Khan.

Do not be surprised. Sir Syed Ahmed Khan is well known as a dunyadar, but he was also deendar. He used to be punctual with his five times namaz with jama't; he kept a beard strictly according to the Shariat; he used to recite the Qur'an shareef regularly; and he was punctual with his tahajjud namaz. Admittedly, he held controversial views on some points of aqa'id.

To continue: The "durwesh" is saying, "Yes, I visited him. These eyes of mine have been blessed by gazing at his gracious countenance."
A change comes over Sir Syed Ahmed Khan. He is immediately attentive and sits up respectfully. He apologises, "Please forgive me. I did not recognise you." He turns to the servant and says, "Bring me my cash box." The servant brings a small box which he places in front of Sir Syed Ahmed Khan, who takes from the box a handful of silver coins. He gets up and walks over to the "durwesh" and respectfully hands him the money. "Huzur (Sir), please be kind enough to accept this gift."
The "durwesh" takes the money - after all, this was the purpose of his visit - and departs.
Watching all this bemusedly is the V.I.P. from Hyderabad. (Important people have important people as friends. They do not take friends from the riff-raff.) He comments, "What happened? You said you would not give him a single paisa, and there you went and gave him a small fortune." He is obviously unaware of the reason for the change in Sir Syed Ahmed Khan's attitude.
Sir Syed Ahmed Khan asks, "Did you not hear the name he mentioned?"
The friend says, "Yes, I heard."
Sir Syed Ahmed Khan explains, "Well, that happens to be my peer-saheb. When he said that he had set eyes on my peer- saheb how could I ignore him? I was duty bound to be respectful and present him something. In any case, I got away cheaply."
The friend says, "Got away cheaply? But I saw you gave him quite a big sum."
Sir Syed Ahmed Khan says, "I swear that had he said that I should give him the entire box I would have done so! No. I got away cheaply."

Hadhratwala (r.a.) concluded his narration by saying. "See, these were the qualities to be seen in the dunyadar in those days. Think. Do those who are deendar possess such qualities?"
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#81 [Permalink] Posted on 25th August 2015 18:56
Sorry for the length of my previous post.
This is something from "discourses for friends", a book on thr discourses of maulana maseehullah ra.
I feel that this particular lesson backs the sentiments of uncle muadh. He does not necessarily agree with maulana maududi ra, but suggests there was good within him that we should not turn a blind eye to.

One thing i dont understand is the incident of maulana ilyas sab ra leaving madrasah. He went back and completed his studies in the traditional way but maulana maududi did not. Is there really any comparison, what is the lesson from this?
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#82 [Permalink] Posted on 25th August 2015 20:06

najimuddin wrote:
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Here is a summarised version of what I am trying to say:

Differences of opinion are a hallmark of tolerance of Islam. Salaf and our Akaabir differed (in Fiqh let alone politics) and lived with each other.

The uncle/nephew duo are slugging it in Indian Courts. There are disputes over finances, disputes over areas of collection, differences (upon claiming credit) for charity.

I know your Silsila and what this dispute entails closely and intimately. I am not in a place to lay blame and claim that Chacha or Bhateeja is at fault, let them BOTH take a mockery of Indian Muslims run with their money and fight it in Indian court and degrade Islam!

The references which you have quoted no doubt teach tolerance (and we all agree with it). The  Chacha/Bhateeja (Uncle/Nephew) war is anything but Tolerance.

Don’t think we were born yesterday. :P

Jazakallahu Khayran

Abdur Rahman ibn Awf wrote:
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Disagreement is Mubah in Islam and one can agree to disagree.  Using one's (supposed) position in Islam to Bully/Insult people (instead of discussion) is not.

Me & You disagree (often) and its a pleasure. Others in this thread have not read what they are disagreeing about the Hazrat Shaykh (DB) doesn't even have the ability to read (as per his own admission). He claims that his teacher caught Maulana smoking so fair enough.

The other "Mureed" is trying to say that Chacha/Bhateeja (uncle/Nephew) Madani dispute is coridal which is insulting to everyone who knows the reality. He gives references to respecting differences of opinion and then quotes Madani dispute :P

All it is INSULT upon INSULT; or falsifying of facts there is no argument to speak of.

Take a look at the one who is "Disliking" the posts of GateKeeper who is simply quoting Maulana Masihullah Khan (RA) :P Would you call it an argument? :)

Allah (SWT) knows best.

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#83 [Permalink] Posted on 25th August 2015 21:02
There is a person who can argue very well even better than a woman debater. I find that person very funny at the moment.
That person does not have knowledge of certain arabic subjects like balaagha.fasaaha etc.
Allah hamey in lugoon ki fitnah se bachaye. Awr inko hidayate tamma naseeb farmayee. Aameen
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#84 [Permalink] Posted on 25th August 2015 21:56
@Muadh Khan since you asked

Take a look at the one who is "Disliking" the posts of GateKeeper who is simply quoting Maulana Masihullah Khan (RA) :P Would you call it an argument? :)

I would call that highly inappropriate, The Brother gatekeeper wrote two excellent posts that were empathetic to the view point taken by Muadh Khan,...So some one because of their dislike of Muadh Khan, took exception and decided to dislike his posts, such behaviour, is inappropriate and should not be given succour or sustenance on an Islamic forum.

To be fair I have to be consistent, a precedent was set prior to this, somewhere around the time I joined this forum, we had a Brother posting inspirational Hadiths, and we had people disliking those posts because of their hatred for the brother who was posting those Hadiths...The behaviour of those brothers was even more inappropiate, as Shaykh Abdul Qadir Gilani (RA) reportedly said, "look at what is being said, not who is saying it."

Generally speaking and this is not directed at anyone in particular having participated on various forums, I think the style of being a 'straight shooter' (and every forum has a few) has its drawbacks, for one if the "Straight Shooter" happens to be Older he will naturally attract a loyal following of youngsters, I do not blame them because we have all been there, when we are young we find the "Straight Shooter" style cool, the youngsters then try to emulate it, so then you end up with a whole group of "Straight Shooters". In one of the forums there was an Older charismatic member so he unwittingly said to one of the youngsters suffering from some self-esteem issues "You remind me of myself when I was your age, I used to tell it straight just like you, keep it up", So next thing this youngster, started going Detroit Freestyle and being belligerent with everybody.

The Older "straight shooters" are not only responsible for their own behaviour, they are going to have to answer for all these youngsters they influenced. Then the issue is that some of those who are on the receiving end of this "straight shooting" are youngsters going through personal or emotional issues...! Allah knows best what happens to such individuals when they are driven away from the forums, after being on the receiving end of the straight shooting...Sure one can say often times that these people were asking for it and deserved the reaction they got...But as the elders in Tabligh say it is easy to drive someone away, the real challenge is to look at them as victims of their own ignorance, and respond to them in a kind and gentle manner, hundreds have been guided because someone treated them with patience.

Finally many of us who reach a certain age, we realise that in the past I was somebody but today I am just yesterdays news, speaking from experience we go through a midlife crisis,...The back starts hurting, the joints start aching, hair starts turning grey and falling out in bunches,various illnesses, blood pressure, diabetes and the like start creeping in, the digestion is bad, the kidneys become weak. So on the forum it gives us older timers the opportunity to feel young and we start acting like the youngsters, and going freestyle in our speech with everyone , and we like to share our stories of how tough we used to be and how cool we used to be, How many kilos we used to lift in the gym, how many miles we used to run, how many different martial arts we participated in and how many trophies and belts we acquired...How we use to run and mix with the toughest crews etc.,

So we have the youngsters trying to present an image of something they are not, we got old timers trying to be something they longer are....for the record most of what I stated I have been guilty of and applies to myself. May Allah forgive me...!

If anyone takes exception to what I just stated then they should ask themselves why? Like I said I am first and foremost talking about myself no reason for anyone to be offended unless what I stated applies to them...If it does apply then perhaps it time to make a change.
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#85 [Permalink] Posted on 25th August 2015 22:22
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Dear Brother Muadh,

This is a verbatim quote of yours in relation to me.

The other "Mureed" is trying to say that Chacha/Bhateeja (uncle/Nephew) Madani dispute is coridal which is insulting to everyone who knows the reality. He gives references to respecting differences of opinion and then quotes Madani dispute :P

I said their personal relationship was cordial. You are saying that I said the dispute is cordial. There is a difference. That is a misrepresentation which changes the meaning of the message.

Also, the references illustrate this differentiation between the personal and political realm. You are limiting the scope of these references to respecting differences of opinion and being tolerant.
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#86 [Permalink] Posted on 25th August 2015 22:37
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Honurable Brother,

How can even personal relations be cordial when the issues are hanging out for all to see in Courts?

People with cordial relations disagree but don't drag their issues in Court, wouldn't you agree? They settle it cordially.

How can personal relations be cordial and legal teams of each other are mud-slinging openly in the Media?

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#87 [Permalink] Posted on 26th August 2015 00:07
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Brother,

This is certainly possible. Political strife does not lead to personal strife with our Mashaikh. Unfortunately, even madrassa students can't differentiate. They speak their opinions without first having been reformed under the guidance of the Mashaikh. Below are examples of the aforementioned and this inability to differentiate.

The following incident is reported in a recent article and can be found @ http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-others/peace-proposal-in-place-jamiat-factions-seek-to-reunite-soon/

During a recent meeting geared towards reconciliation:
"Sources said Mahmood Madani embraced his uncle Arshad Madani."


The following are quotes taken from an article written in 2009. It can be found @
http://twocircles.net/2009dec05/students_darul_uloom_speak_out_about_jamiat_ulema_e_hind.html#.VdzqxyVVhHw

It is interesting to note here that though fighting between uncle and nephew has been the hot news for newspapers and channels but in personal life their relation is as strong as it was before.

“Both Maulana Arshad Madani and Maulana Mahmood Madani are respected personalities for us but we are unable to understand that these people have friendly relation with each other at home then why they do not find any solution for JUH controversy which weakened the organization” said Javed Iqbal, a sixth year student.

“Last year there was marriage of daughter of Maulana Mahmood Madani in which Maulana Arshad Madani was invited and he performed the nikah. Some days back mother of Qari Usman sahib, president of one group of JUH, passed away. Maulana Arshad sahib was requested to lead funeral (janaza) prayer and he did so. When these people can share dais for their personal matters then why do they not come at one platform for the benefit of the community? Are they fooling the people or being blackmailed by some of their selfish disciples?” he asked.
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#88 [Permalink] Posted on 26th August 2015 08:35
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My Honurable Brother,

You have skipped the question entirely and gone off a tangent.

Uncle/Nephew are Ameers of their organisations. Are you telling me that the otganisation and individuals are acting without the Mushwara and decision of the Ameer when court cases, Chanda donations, press statements are being issued?

Secondly, the statement which you quoted is pretty old and at the beginning of the saga a year or 2 after the split. It could be that at that time Media didn't know the full facts or the farce of pretensions (like divorcing couples) was still being kept.

Next, I guess you will begin to Justify the split of Darul-uloom Deoband and Saharnpur to people outside of India.

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#89 [Permalink] Posted on 26th August 2015 11:49
As-salam-alaykum:

"Next, I guess you will begin to Justify the split of Darul-uloom Deoband and Saharanpur to people outside of India."

Respected Brother Muadh:

I have heard both versions of the split in the above mentioned madaris. One was the analytical, fact based version. The other was the "sufi" version (on the lines of Brother Najimuddin's explanation of the Jamiat differences).

Speaking entirely for myself, the "sufi" explanation made it very easy for me to maintain husn-dhann towards the ulema in question.

Needless to say, the fact-based, analytical version did not have the same effect on my heart.

Also, as a postscript, May Allah taala forgive the mistakes of all those who have passed away while on the Kalimah and accept all their good deeds and admit them into His Mercy.
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#90 [Permalink] Posted on 26th August 2015 12:29
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Also I've observed them closely:

*yes, their Rukn (members) may keep trimmed beard
* yes, they are encouraged to do self study of Quran and hadith, this is why they don't get in touch with ulama.
*They aren't encouraged to involve in munazra
* Most of them are ghairmuqallid
* They invite Hindus and Christians in their ijtima and give them the Islamic books free of cost or at minimum rate
* Source of income must be halal. If any Rukn violate this rule his membership will be snatched away
* They elect their office bearers through secret ballot system. Nobody contests in election. Every member is the undeclared candidate. Every Rukn is authorised to elect them but none of them can vote for himself. No lobbying or polarization is allowed and whoever is given the maximum no. of votes he's informed to take the office and the circular is issued to all the concerned members.
* They've the concept of parliament, executive, judiciary etc in detail.
* Their constitution is Quran and Hadith
* At the time of giving rukniyat the new members recite the kalima and other also follow them.
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